priorities, organizations and doctorates

[Guest guest]

I thoroughly agree with that our priority should be to promote our

freedom to practice and prescribe using Chinese medicinal substances,

having demonstrated a proficiency in administering the methods and

practices of Chinese medicine, and a record of safety when prescribed

properly,by a licensed practitioner. The obvious step is to remove

Chinese medicine from FDA and DEA jurisdiction, creating our own

self-policing agency, limiting access to Chinese medical substances to

the general public without a prescription, and considering patents as

equivalent to over the counter medication. But I have yet to see or hear

anything other than casual discussion as to how that will be implemented.

 

WHY IS THIS NOT OUR PRIORITY? WHY ARE OUR ORGANIZATIONS PIDDLING AROUND

WITH ADVANCED DEGREES AND TITLES WHEN THE FOUNDATION OF CHINESE MEDICINE

IS IN JEOPARDY?

 

The time to advance other matters such as new entry level doctorates is

when we are in a position of strength, not when every week, another herb

becomes contraband, and our hands become bound tighter and tighter.

 

BTW, in my latest journey to Chinatown LA, I found out that mai ya, yep,

sprouted barley, has been banned for import!

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

" ...and you know something is happening, but you don't know what it is,

DO YOU? Mr. Jones. "

 

from:

" Ballad of a Thin Man "

Robert Zimmerman

circa '67

 

 

[Guest guest]

I like your thinking on this and that you have ID an issue which is very

much a stumbling block for those who were licensed years ago. I have often

found it troubling that those practitioners licensed when you could only get

a diploma or certificate are the ones who fight for the status quo. The

status quo is no longer going to work my friends. I hope that we would see

an interest from non-CA recognized programs to increase their educational

hours and include more western hours as well. After all we practice

medicine and if we want the public to take us seriously we need to be able

to demonstrate that we are serious. We have far to many programs that are

below this level. I am for this as one possible solution. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

>

>

>Re: priorities, organizations and doctorates

>Wed, 8 Dec 2004 00:36:37 -0800

>

>WHY IS THIS NOT OUR PRIORITY? WHY ARE OUR ORGANIZATIONS PIDDLING AROUND

>WITH ADVANCED DEGREES AND TITLES WHEN THE FOUNDATION OF CHINESE MEDICINE

>IS IN JEOPARDY?

> >>>>>So that the powers in this society would take us more seriously. As

>long as we are not part of the main stream education system we will not

>enjoy the full respect that we need to advance our cause. If you guys think

>you can continue to gain strength while not part of what is the expectable

>levels of education in the US, you are the one's that put the foundation of

>Chinese medicine in jeopardy. If you think FDA officials will talk the word

>of what they see as laypeople with agendas as seriously as university

>educated professionals you are dreaming. You think you can just make the

>rules as you go, have them apply only to you. This will not work and in the

>long run will result in CM to be taken up by other professions which will

>have the standing in the US. And then you will cry that the experts in CM

>are out of the picture. The standards of education in the US are well

>established. We need regionally accredited programs to be on a level

>playing field.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You bring up excellent points about your concerns and our professional

needs. Unfortunately, the timing of it is improbable. You see, the FDA has

support from the Bushies and they have been looking for ways to limit us and

force us to become ineffective by limiting our tools. You can battle with

them if you are willing to litigate. Once in litigation, the opposition

attorney will most likely question the qualifications of the profession in

areas such as pharmacology, chemistry, biochemsitry, etc. Since many of us

recieve little or no training in these areas it would be very hard for us to

legitimately argue for ourselves. A similar type of event has plagued the

chiropractic profession which is why they now offer Bachelor degrees. This

answers the problem of having a doctorate without a bachelor's. We need to

show the government that we are the experts in our chosen profession. Right

now, we are not and we are not recognized as such by the authorities.

Educational standards are going to be one our most important tools that WE

have control over. As for freedom, there is no such thing. We practice

under a regulated governmental body in every state with a license. I do not

hear people making issues over the need for licensing. Licensing and

educational standards are what defines how and who can practice a

profession. We need licensing as well as higher educational standards if we

are going to make ourselves a legit profession. You cannot promote a

profession if you are few in number. We need to think about the future

practitioners and their contributions as well. You will not be able to

remove herbs from FDA jurisdiction as that is one of many types of products

that they regulate. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

>Yehuda L Frischman <

>

>

> priorities, organizations and doctorates

>Mon, 6 Dec 2004 00:57:34 -0800

>

>

>I thoroughly agree with that our priority should be to promote our

>freedom to practice and prescribe using Chinese medicinal substances,

>having demonstrated a proficiency in administering the methods and

>practices of Chinese medicine, and a record of safety when prescribed

>properly,by a licensed practitioner. The obvious step is to remove

>Chinese medicine from FDA and DEA jurisdiction, creating our own

>self-policing agency, limiting access to Chinese medical substances to

>the general public without a prescription, and considering patents as

>equivalent to over the counter medication. But I have yet to see or hear

>anything other than casual discussion as to how that will be implemented.

>

>WHY IS THIS NOT OUR PRIORITY? WHY ARE OUR ORGANIZATIONS PIDDLING AROUND

>WITH ADVANCED DEGREES AND TITLES WHEN THE FOUNDATION OF CHINESE MEDICINE

>IS IN JEOPARDY?

>

>The time to advance other matters such as new entry level doctorates is

>when we are in a position of strength, not when every week, another herb

>becomes contraband, and our hands become bound tighter and tighter.

>

>BTW, in my latest journey to Chinatown LA, I found out that mai ya, yep,

>sprouted barley, has been banned for import!

>

>

>Yehuda

>

>

> " ...and you know something is happening, but you don't know what it is,

>DO YOU? Mr. Jones. "

>

>from:

> " Ballad of a Thin Man "

>Robert Zimmerman

>circa '67

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I believe you are missing the point. The process that you foresee is a

long one and I agree that in time it needs to become a priority. The 4

programs that currently offer DAOM's are a major step in that direction,

and this process will continue as other schools are accredited. But,

though you are right that in order to " dance the dance " as a

knowledgeable and credible medical practitioner our western education

should be more rigorous, this is only half of the formula for success and

survival! We've had this discussion before, but to summarize, yes, we

need to intelligently interact on the same playing field as Western

allopathic physicians (they're much bigger than we are, and bullies at

that), in order to lobby for protection and change from a perspective of

power, explaining our methods and practices in language that MDs and

legislators can understand, but we also have another, more immediate

priority, and that is to articulate our uniqueness, meaning the

difference between us and other non-medical practitioners, in order to

allow ourselves to continue practicing what we do without meddling from

those who are ignorant as to how and what we practice. The point is that

WE ARE NOT LAYPEOPLE WITH AGENDAS, and this needs to be passionately and

articulately espoused in order to ensure our survival intact. And as I

said in my last post, this is an immediate and urgent problem.

 

Yehuda

 

 

WHY IS THIS NOT OUR PRIORITY? WHY ARE OUR ORGANIZATIONS PIDDLING AROUND

WITH ADVANCED DEGREES AND TITLES WHEN THE FOUNDATION OF CHINESE MEDICINE

IS IN JEOPARDY?

>>>>>So that the powers in this society would take us more seriously. As

long as we are not part of the main stream education system we will not

enjoy the full respect that we need to advance our cause. If you guys

think you can continue to gain strength while not part of what is the

expectable levels of education in the US, you are the one's that put the

foundation of Chinese medicine in jeopardy. If you think FDA officials

will talk the word of what they see as laypeople with agendas as

seriously as university educated professionals you are dreaming. You

think you can just make the rules as you go, have them apply only to you.

This will not work and in the long run will result in CM to be taken up

by other professions which will have the standing in the US. And then you

will cry that the experts in CM are out of the picture. The standards of

education in the US are well established. We need regionally accredited

programs to be on a level playing field.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

WHY IS THIS NOT OUR PRIORITY? WHY ARE OUR ORGANIZATIONS PIDDLING AROUND

WITH ADVANCED DEGREES AND TITLES WHEN THE FOUNDATION OF CHINESE MEDICINE

IS IN JEOPARDY?

>>>>>So that the powers in this society would take us more seriously. As long as

we are not part of the main stream education system we will not enjoy the full

respect that we need to advance our cause. If you guys think you can continue to

gain strength while not part of what is the expectable levels of education in

the US, you are the one's that put the foundation of Chinese medicine in

jeopardy. If you think FDA officials will talk the word of what they see as

laypeople with agendas as seriously as university educated professionals you are

dreaming. You think you can just make the rules as you go, have them apply only

to you. This will not work and in the long run will result in CM to be taken up

by other professions which will have the standing in the US. And then you will

cry that the experts in CM are out of the picture. The standards of education in

the US are well established. We need regionally accredited programs to be on a

level playing field.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/04 11:50:01 AM, writes:

 

 

>

> WHY IS THIS NOT OUR PRIORITY?  WHY ARE OUR ORGANIZATIONS PIDDLING AROUND

> WITH ADVANCED DEGREES AND TITLES WHEN THE FOUNDATION OF CHINESE MEDICINE

> IS IN JEOPARDY?

>

 

Why is it that people think that because one thing is being done, that others

can't be? There are a number of priorities being worked on by natioanl

organizations.

DAvid Molony

 

 

 

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

 

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[Guest guest]

What we are goin through is similar in many ways to what the chiropractors

went through previously. I think we could learn a lot by looking at what

they did, when they did it and their outcomes. Their original philosophy

and uniqueness is related to a condition known as a subluxation. Their

programs have added western sciences in order to be competitive and also to

recieve payment from third party payers. If we are able to learn from this

we could shorten the learning curve. We have to make changes or there will

not be a future beyond us. We need solidarity and more open discussion on

how to do it. This is not an option. We need change as more and more new

graduates are failing and leaving the profession. Stubborness will not

succeed when you lack numbers. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

>

>

>Re: priorities, organizations and doctorates

>Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:45:22 -0800

>

>but we also have another, more immediate

>priority, and that is to articulate our uniqueness, meaning the

>difference between us and other non-medical practitioners, in order to

>allow ourselves to continue practicing what we do without meddling from

>those who are ignorant as to how and what we practice. The point is that

>WE ARE NOT LAYPEOPLE WITH AGENDAS, and this needs to be passionately and

>articulately espoused in order to ensure our survival intact. And as I

>said in my last post, this is an immediate and urgent problem.

>

> >>>This is important to do as well, but if you think we can change the

>entire perspective of what educated professional are I think you are

>mistaken. I know and you know that we are not Laypeople, but the

>scientific community still sees are this way and will until we join it. To

>do so we need to play by the rules.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

but we also have another, more immediate

priority, and that is to articulate our uniqueness, meaning the

difference between us and other non-medical practitioners, in order to

allow ourselves to continue practicing what we do without meddling from

those who are ignorant as to how and what we practice. The point is that

WE ARE NOT LAYPEOPLE WITH AGENDAS, and this needs to be passionately and

articulately espoused in order to ensure our survival intact. And as I

said in my last post, this is an immediate and urgent problem.

 

>>>This is important to do as well, but if you think we can change the entire

perspective of what educated professional are I think you are mistaken. I know

and you know that we are not Laypeople, but the scientific community still sees

are this way and will until we join it. To do so we need to play by the rules.