Guest guest Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate level. It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to supply them regards Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Hi Sue, I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement is only 3 year diploma. 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time degree program. While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after 5 years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a speciality with extensive clinical training included. Best Wishes, Steve On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > > Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has > no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started > a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All > students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and > the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate > level. > It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to > supply them > regards > Sue > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Real in who's terms? Educational degrees are worth as much as you feel they are worth. The time put into learning is important. You can always increase your learning. You can never learn it all. Various studies undertaken in the US have shown that the amount of undergrad has almost no bearing on the quality of practitioner. It matters not whether you have 2 years, 3 years or a 4 year bachelor's. This degrading simply serves to creates a lack of respect. We need to acknowledge our weaknesse and also build each other up. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Steven Slater <laozhongyi > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:26:52 +1100 > >Hi Sue, > >I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is >available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no >REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and >may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. > >The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic >degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement is >only 3 year diploma. > >3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time >degree program. > >While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I >would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am >talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after 5 >years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a >speciality with extensive clinical training included. > >Best Wishes, > >Steve > >On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has > > no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started > > a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All > > students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and > > the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate > > level. > > It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to > > supply them > > regards > > Sue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I disagree. IMO it does matter if you have 2 or 3 or 4 years. I mean " real " in terms of what Bob Flaws may term " professional standards of TCM " , not what many are being let loose on the public with in the West. This is the weakness we create for ourselves. A 1 year (equivalent full time) masters degree on a 3 year diploma? Get real. I am NOT saying further education is not important.......it is VITAL. What I am saying is lets not get carried away with maintaining low basic education standards and trying to band-aid it with " masters " and " doctorates " that cover material that should be covered in the initial basic education. Maintaining insufficient basic education and trying to cover it with increasing academic titles is what degrades our profession and results in lack of respect. I believe we have to raise the basic level WITHOUT raising the academic titles. That way, it increases respect for us from day one and allows further post-graduate studies that truly demonstrate education beyond entry level standards. Best Wishes, Steve On 12/12/2004, at 2:36 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Real in who's terms? Educational degrees are worth as much as you > feel they > are worth. The time put into learning is important. You can always > increase your learning. You can never learn it all. Various studies > undertaken in the US have shown that the amount of undergrad has > almost no > bearing on the quality of practitioner. It matters not whether you > have 2 > years, 3 years or a 4 year bachelor's. This degrading simply serves to > creates a lack of respect. We need to acknowledge our weaknesse and > also > build each other up. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > >> Steven Slater <laozhongyi >> >> >> Re: Masters of CM in Australia >> Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:26:52 +1100 >> >> Hi Sue, >> >> I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is >> available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no >> REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and >> may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. >> >> The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic >> degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement >> is >> only 3 year diploma. >> >> 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time >> degree program. >> >> While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I >> would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am >> talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after >> 5 >> years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a >> speciality with extensive clinical training included. >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Steve >> >> On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has >>> no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started >>> a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All >>> students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and >>> the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate >>> level. >>> It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to >>> supply them >>> regards >>> Sue >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual >>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I would like to add that I do not think that my education was perfect or that I have been educated to the perfect standard either. I did 5 years full time with a 1 year internship in China for my basic TCM BSc training. This was still not sufficient in my eyes to be fully prepared to enter unsupervised practice (it isn't in China either); and for this reason I feel so strongly about the appropriateness of graduating in LESS time. Any titles of " masters " or " doctorates " that only cover what is a basic BSc in TCM in China is just misleading. I understand that our western education systems may use these academic titles differently but that does not mean we have to use them when creating what still amount to basic level education in TCM. We CAN make an appropriate BSc level program. There is NO need to call it a masters or doctorate beyond trying to convince the public and/or ourselves that we are well educated. I don't think these titles are fooling anyone but those who feel better having such titles next to their names. Best Wishes, Steve On 12/12/2004, at 2:49 AM, Steven Slater wrote: > > I disagree. > > IMO it does matter if you have 2 or 3 or 4 years. > > I mean " real " in terms of what Bob Flaws may term " professional > standards of TCM " , not what many are being let loose on the public with > in the West. > > This is the weakness we create for ourselves. A 1 year (equivalent full > time) masters degree on a 3 year diploma? Get real. > > I am NOT saying further education is not important.......it is VITAL. > What I am saying is lets not get carried away with maintaining low > basic education standards and trying to band-aid it with " masters " and > " doctorates " that cover material that should be covered in the initial > basic education. Maintaining insufficient basic education and trying to > cover it with increasing academic titles is what degrades our > profession and results in lack of respect. > > I believe we have to raise the basic level WITHOUT raising the academic > titles. That way, it increases respect for us from day one and allows > further post-graduate studies that truly demonstrate education beyond > entry level standards. > > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > On 12/12/2004, at 2:36 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > >> >> Real in who's terms? Educational degrees are worth as much as you >> feel they >> are worth. The time put into learning is important. You can always >> increase your learning. You can never learn it all. Various studies >> undertaken in the US have shown that the amount of undergrad has >> almost no >> bearing on the quality of practitioner. It matters not whether you >> have 2 >> years, 3 years or a 4 year bachelor's. This degrading simply serves >> to >> creates a lack of respect. We need to acknowledge our weaknesse and >> also >> build each other up. Later >> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> >>> Steven Slater <laozhongyi >>> >>> >>> Re: Masters of CM in Australia >>> Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:26:52 +1100 >>> >>> Hi Sue, >>> >>> I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what >>> is >>> available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being >>> no >>> REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and >>> may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. >>> >>> The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic >>> degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement >>> is >>> only 3 year diploma. >>> >>> 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time >>> degree program. >>> >>> While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I >>> would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am >>> talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after >>> 5 >>> years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a >>> speciality with extensive clinical training included. >>> >>> Best Wishes, >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has >>>> no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started >>>> a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All >>>> students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and >>>> the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate >>>> level. >>>> It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to >>>> supply them >>>> regards >>>> Sue >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >>>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual >>>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I am certain all china is not the same........but in the big TCM hospitals, they did masters with further clinical observation before being allowed to practice there. If graduates moved to country areas I am sure they would start unsupervised however. My statement was a little too general perhaps. The point I was making that education standards at a professional level are high and to work in provincial hospitals most require a masters, but preferably a PhD. Steve On 12/12/2004, at 7:34 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > (it isn't in China either); >>>> I do not know how it is now, but 1985 students did enter >>>> unsupervised practice after one year internship > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Steve, there is never going to be enough education to cover a large area like TCM/OM. As for titles, it is not the title itself that is as important as the consistancy of the education. Many countries seem to have a variation on this theme. Not to create an issue but I have met practitioners with a Bachelor's in TCM who did not seem to understand basic information either. It is important to recognize that education recieved in China and Korea is different than in the states or Australia. The Asian countries have been able to provide for a more lengthy scope of practice and provide care for a larger range of conditions including serious medical ones. It is also important to note that these providers are allowed to work in multi-disciplinary hospitals without the bias we face. Maybe someone can respond as to why we call these practitioners " doctor " then when they might only have a Master's? This is also a title issue that needs to be addressed. Somethings in life are not equal. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Steven Slater <laozhongyi > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:58:12 +1100 > >I would like to add that I do not think that my education was perfect >or that I have been educated to the perfect standard either. I did 5 >years full time with a 1 year internship in China for my basic TCM BSc >training. This was still not sufficient in my eyes to be fully prepared >to enter unsupervised practice (it isn't in China either); and for this >reason I feel so strongly about the appropriateness of graduating in >LESS time. Any titles of " masters " or " doctorates " that only cover what >is a basic BSc in TCM in China is just misleading. > >I understand that our western education systems may use these academic >titles differently but that does not mean we have to use them when >creating what still amount to basic level education in TCM. We CAN make >an appropriate BSc level program. There is NO need to call it a masters >or doctorate beyond trying to convince the public and/or ourselves that >we are well educated. I don't think these titles are fooling anyone but >those who feel better having such titles next to their names. > >Best Wishes, > >Steve > > > >On 12/12/2004, at 2:49 AM, Steven Slater wrote: > > > > > I disagree. > > > > IMO it does matter if you have 2 or 3 or 4 years. > > > > I mean " real " in terms of what Bob Flaws may term " professional > > standards of TCM " , not what many are being let loose on the public with > > in the West. > > > > This is the weakness we create for ourselves. A 1 year (equivalent full > > time) masters degree on a 3 year diploma? Get real. > > > > I am NOT saying further education is not important.......it is VITAL. > > What I am saying is lets not get carried away with maintaining low > > basic education standards and trying to band-aid it with " masters " and > > " doctorates " that cover material that should be covered in the initial > > basic education. Maintaining insufficient basic education and trying to > > cover it with increasing academic titles is what degrades our > > profession and results in lack of respect. > > > > I believe we have to raise the basic level WITHOUT raising the academic > > titles. That way, it increases respect for us from day one and allows > > further post-graduate studies that truly demonstrate education beyond > > entry level standards. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Steve > > > > On 12/12/2004, at 2:36 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > >> > >> Real in who's terms? Educational degrees are worth as much as you > >> feel they > >> are worth. The time put into learning is important. You can always > >> increase your learning. You can never learn it all. Various studies > >> undertaken in the US have shown that the amount of undergrad has > >> almost no > >> bearing on the quality of practitioner. It matters not whether you > >> have 2 > >> years, 3 years or a 4 year bachelor's. This degrading simply serves > >> to > >> creates a lack of respect. We need to acknowledge our weaknesse and > >> also > >> build each other up. Later > >> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > >> > >>> Steven Slater <laozhongyi > >>> > >>> > >>> Re: Masters of CM in Australia > >>> Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:26:52 +1100 > >>> > >>> Hi Sue, > >>> > >>> I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what > >>> is > >>> available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being > >>> no > >>> REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and > >>> may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. > >>> > >>> The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic > >>> degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement > >>> is > >>> only 3 year diploma. > >>> > >>> 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time > >>> degree program. > >>> > >>> While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I > >>> would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am > >>> talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after > >>> 5 > >>> years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a > >>> speciality with extensive clinical training included. > >>> > >>> Best Wishes, > >>> > >>> Steve > >>> > >>> On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has > >>>> no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started > >>>> a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All > >>>> students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and > >>>> the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate > >>>> level. > >>>> It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to > >>>> supply them > >>>> regards > >>>> Sue > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > >>>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > >>>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Steve, My statement about the amount of undergrad is not my opinion but the results of numerous studies undertaken to determine the outcomes of (MD) practitioner ability. The point is simply that undergrad education whether 2, 3, or 4 years was not different from each other. This is a significant realization and one that we should look at as well when redesigning our educational programs. I know that some in the DC profession are looking to make the 4 year Bachelor's a pre-req and not an option. In light of this info there is much talk about status quo. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Steven Slater <laozhongyi > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:49:20 +1100 > >I disagree. > >IMO it does matter if you have 2 or 3 or 4 years. > >I mean " real " in terms of what Bob Flaws may term " professional >standards of TCM " , not what many are being let loose on the public with >in the West. > >This is the weakness we create for ourselves. A 1 year (equivalent full >time) masters degree on a 3 year diploma? Get real. > >I am NOT saying further education is not important.......it is VITAL. >What I am saying is lets not get carried away with maintaining low >basic education standards and trying to band-aid it with " masters " and > " doctorates " that cover material that should be covered in the initial >basic education. Maintaining insufficient basic education and trying to >cover it with increasing academic titles is what degrades our >profession and results in lack of respect. > >I believe we have to raise the basic level WITHOUT raising the academic >titles. That way, it increases respect for us from day one and allows >further post-graduate studies that truly demonstrate education beyond >entry level standards. > > >Best Wishes, > >Steve > >On 12/12/2004, at 2:36 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > Real in who's terms? Educational degrees are worth as much as you > > feel they > > are worth. The time put into learning is important. You can always > > increase your learning. You can never learn it all. Various studies > > undertaken in the US have shown that the amount of undergrad has > > almost no > > bearing on the quality of practitioner. It matters not whether you > > have 2 > > years, 3 years or a 4 year bachelor's. This degrading simply serves to > > creates a lack of respect. We need to acknowledge our weaknesse and > > also > > build each other up. Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > >> Steven Slater <laozhongyi > >> > >> > >> Re: Masters of CM in Australia > >> Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:26:52 +1100 > >> > >> Hi Sue, > >> > >> I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is > >> available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no > >> REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and > >> may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. > >> > >> The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic > >> degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement > >> is > >> only 3 year diploma. > >> > >> 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time > >> degree program. > >> > >> While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I > >> would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am > >> talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after > >> 5 > >> years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a > >> speciality with extensive clinical training included. > >> > >> Best Wishes, > >> > >> Steve > >> > >> On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has > >>> no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started > >>> a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All > >>> students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and > >>> the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate > >>> level. > >>> It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to > >>> supply them > >>> regards > >>> Sue > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > >>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > >>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Ultimately, the amount of personal effort that a student puts into their education is a more important than what the school provides alone. The schools prepare students for the exams and give them a basis for practice on paper. The responsibility to take their career off the paper and into the real world is the student's responsibility. Students in the system have the option of studying a great deal and acquiring a solid foundation or studying just enough to pass the test. The way I see it, the main problem is not that the schools do not lay a potentially solid foundation, the problem is that the students don't take this foundation and build upon it after graduation. States and regions where Master's degrees can be legally issued for Chinese medicine offer a big advantage to their graduates, because a Master's degree gives students many in-roads towards further study in Asia. However, the majority of practitioners are content to just put up their shingle and begin experimenting on their patients, rather than taking out an additional 3-4 years after graduation to study in hospitals and bring their education up to a level that truly meets their satisfaction. We bemoan that our 4-year Master's programs are not comprehensive enough, but 4 years is really only enough to lay a foundation in CM anyway. There is no limit to the amount of options that exist for advanced students of CM after graduation. The limitation is that few pursue several years of additional study. It is easy to have residencies and hospital internships for as many years as they are desired, this option is available and virtually free for anyone who cares enough about it to learn Chinese. The four year degree is just a starting point, not an ending point. Western practitioners not knowing enough is a problem. A far bigger problem is Westerners who know little but think they know a lot. Knowing how little we know is important, and knowing how much more there is to learn gives one a fascinating and endless amount of options to pursue. Many people are content to have a relatively simplistic base in Chinese medicine that is complemented by knowledge of Western medicine or other disciplines of alternative medicine. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, assuming that such people can separate what is authentic Chinese medical theory from what is derived from other disciplines and can practice different forms of medicine cleanly in the best interests of each patient. I am emphasizing the route of learning Chinese and studying in Asia simply because I personally gravitate towards learning more about Chinese medicine directly; it is certainly not the exclusively correct approach. If you go to East Asia with a Master's in CM, they will still assume that you don't know very much by their standards, but they will respect your desire to advance your knowledge and their bureaucracy will be easier to navigate because of your degree. Degrees are primarily a means of keeping bureaucratic wheels rolling smoothly. Our degrees facilitate options for learning more in the future, they don't fool anyone because any Chinese doctor can tell within two minutes that we don't have every formula memorized (unlike Chinese doctors with a BS) and we barely know the chapter headings from the Shang Han Lun. Though we have much to learn, the Chinese are really friendly and love to teach people with a sincere desire to learn. Not all students lack the motivation to excel, they are just slowed down by the lowest common denominator in each class. We do need more high-quality teachers and students, and less fluff presentated as authentic CM. But we can't complain about a lack of good post- grad opportuntities. All students have the option to do residencies or advanced studies in any subject, especially " modern professional CM. " The options are unlimited, we just have comparatively few people pursuing them. Eric Brand , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Hi Sue, > > I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is > available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no > REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and > may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. > > The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic > degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement is > only 3 year diploma. > > 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time > degree program. > > While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I > would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am > talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after 5 > years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a > speciality with extensive clinical training included. > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has > > no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started > > a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All > > students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and > > the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate > > level. > > It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to > > supply them > > regards > > Sue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Perhaps this all comes down to confusion of academic systems again. I am referring to undergrad training specifically in the area of TCM, not some other field which one may then progress from into TCM education for the first time ie. I am talking about a TCM undergraduate program that trains people to practitioner level (whatever that may be). Perhaps this is impossible in the US to enter into undergrad TCM training and graduate as a practitioner without doing an some undergrad studies and then entering a masters program. Once again, this is probably due to different systems......but to me, a masters in a field suggests you have already basic proficiency in that field and then enter a program that takes your understanding of this field beyond that of basic proficiency. This is obviously NOT how such terms are used in the US. In such a system one could theoretically complete a masters in a field in the US and not have any more training than a basic undergrad student in Australia. Can people enter masters programs without any previous education in TCM in the US? If so, we are talking from different directions completely and it is no wonder what I term post-graduate education is not considered so in the US. Thus my apprehension with such titling in the world market. Joe Blogs (Masters in TCM) vs. Mary Blogs (BSc in TCM). I would guess that seeing these a layperson would see Joe as having a higher level of training than Mary in TCM. If Joe does something that causes other to think he is not sufficiently educated......this makes Mary look even more incompetent even though she may have more training. This would be even more-so if a 'doctorate' is thrown into the mix. Anyway, this is specifically a US education issue/problem and one that I really don't care for beyond the fact that what the US does is often seen as what the West is doing. If the west wants practitioners who have the competency of TCM practitioners in China (minus the drug prescribing and certian surgical procedures) we simply have to match the hours, subject content and clinical time of the basic TCM education in China. The issue of such training being termed an undergraduate degree, a masters or doctorate in the US is up to you guys. However, if you wish to be able to develop the equivalent of what are masters and PhD's in China in the future......some room for expansion in qualification titles may be necessary which actually reflects the standards you wish to obtain. The Australian system is not perfect and actually seems to be following the US in terms of some of the " masters " programs being offered ie. raising a students training to basic B.Sc level of other undergraduate courses here. There are several Uni's here that offer masters to practitioners of other health fields. These masters, in theory, raise the level of the practitioners to that of B.Sc graduates in TCM. This is actually often not the case and this is what disturbs me about such academic structures. I personally wish to do " real " post-graduate studies in TCM. I entered such a masters program here as I was given the impression it WAS an extension of my undergraduate training. In actual fact, it was revision and was only really a way for me to gain a " higher " educational title. I dropped out and plan to get real higher training through other avenues ie. going to China to gain more clinical experience, studying Chinese and perhaps one day doing a Chinese masters degree in TCM. If academic titles were so important to me I would take the easy option and pay my fees and do some revision to get a " masters " , but since I actually want to further my education.......it seems I will have to go to China and come back with a title that in the US would put me on par with students with 4 years TCM when I would have completed 8 years. This is the imbalance and joke with the current systems (not only the US). In such an atmosphere, the potential for confusion between the actual training undertaken by Joe and Mary above is even more striking. Does anyone see the picture I am trying to paint here? It is not about the US 'system " of education; it is about educational titles and their image actually reflecting truthfully ones degree of training in TCM. Best Wishes, Steve On 12/12/2004, at 5:41 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Steve, > My statement about the amount of undergrad is not my opinion but the > results > of numerous studies undertaken to determine the outcomes of (MD) > practitioner ability. The point is simply that undergrad education > whether > 2, 3, or 4 years was not different from each other. This is a > significant > realization and one that we should look at as well when redesigning our > educational programs. I know that some in the DC profession are > looking to > make the 4 year Bachelor's a pre-req and not an option. In light of > this > info there is much talk about status quo. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 For some perspective on what level of basic education for TCM is in China I have included some details from the normal study programs from Shanghai Uni of TCM. I think they might give some a little perspective and food for thought on what is 'real' and what is just 'smoke' in terms of TCM education in the west and post-graduate education standards..... There are 3 possible majors for undergraduate courses (BM/BS) in at this Uni, they are:- 1) Major of 5 years 2) Major of acupuncture and tuina - 5 years 3) Major of chinese pharmacology - 4 years Each school year has 3 semesters, semesters 1 and 2 are 15 weeks, and semester 3 is 10 weeks. Fifth year is graduation practice in clinical workshops for 12 months. With compulsory practice in:- Internal medicine (6 months) TCM surgery - 1 month Acupuncture - 1 month Paediatrics - 1 month gynaecology - 1 month Voluntary practice: WM internal medicine, dermatology, proctology, tuina, traumatology etc. For majors in TCM or acupuncture/tuina, 299 credits are required for graduation. 1 credit = 14 class hours of theory 1 credit = every 14-28 hours of practical education 1 credit = 1 week of graduation practice. This is basic foundation education for undergraduate degrees in China for TCM. For a Masters degree another 3 years study is required. For a PhD, another 3 years after Masters is required. It is on the basis of these facts that IMO, a " masters " degree of 1 year after a 3 year diploma in TCM or a 4 year masters/doctorate after unrelated undergraduate studies are insufficient for producing TCM professionals that tend to practice BOTH acupuncture and herbal medicine (and to a large degree pharmacology) in the West. Such ideas would be funny if it wasn't so serious in terms of our professional future, status and reputation. No wonder the Chinese look at our abilites/qualifications as poles apart from theirs (without even considering the language and terminology issues). Having said all this.....there certainly are differences in both scope of practice in China vs. the West and the degree of preparation for graduates as primary care providers. However, I believe many hope to increase out standing and abilities in these areas and would do well to consider the education standards for such things in China if we are to have any hope of achieving these aims. Best Wishes, Steve On 12/12/2004, at 12:26 AM, Steven Slater wrote: > > Hi Sue, > > I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is > available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no > REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and > may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. > > The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic > degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement is > only 3 year diploma. > > 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time > degree program. > > While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I > would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am > talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after 5 > years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a > speciality with extensive clinical training included. > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > >> >> >> >> Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has >> no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started >> a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All >> students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and >> the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate >> level. >> It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to >> supply them >> regards >> Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 On 12/12/2004, at 5:27 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Steve, there is never going to be enough education to cover a large > area > like TCM/OM. As for titles, it is not the title itself that is as > important > as the consistancy of the education. Many countries seem to have a > variation on this theme. Not to create an issue but I have met > practitioners with a Bachelor's in TCM who did not seem to understand > basic > information either. It is important to recognize that education > recieved in > China and Korea is different than in the states or Australia. The > Asian > countries have been able to provide for a more lengthy scope of > practice and > provide care for a larger range of conditions including serious medical > ones. It is also important to note that these providers are allowed > to work > in multi-disciplinary hospitals without the bias we face. Maybe > someone can > respond as to why we call these practitioners " doctor " then when they > might > only have a Master's? This is also a title issue that needs to be > addressed. Somethings in life are not equal. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > Mike, Never enough education to cover TCM? That is why appropriate educational standards are necessary for the basic level of education and that is why post-graduate study should actually be post-graduate study after this to allow specialists to develop. No one practitioner can do it all or learn it all, we need specialists; but before that we need a high standard of entry level education as a foundation. The entire foundation may have to be torn down are rebuilt from scratch to be suitable for the future of TCM in the west. Difficult? Yes. Necessary? Yes. Painful? Yes. Impossible? No. Of course it is important to recognise that the education received in China is different to that of the US - this is the basic issue. Much of the west is ignoring this issue or using it as an excuse for our low standards of TCM education in general. Saying it is different is no excuse for the current state of affairs regarding TCM education in the West; it is actually much of the reason FOR it. The fact you have met a practitioner with a Bachelor in TCM who did not seem to understand basic information is just another wake up call to what we should be doing. This just points to the fact that there are problems with not only with course content and the abilities of our lecturers but the larger issues of who is let in to these courses to start with and how they are assessed (or in many cases, not really assessed) for suitability for graduation and let loose on the public as a representative of the TCM profession. Scope of practice is an issue as is multi-disciplinary hospital settings....but we will NEVER be let close in such areas unless we have, as a minimum, the equivalent training to China/Korea etc. We should not be viewing Asian education standards as too high, but as the bare minimum for application in the Western medical atmosphere we live in. We are practising a medical system.......the time for nite-school, diplomas with moonbeams and warm-n-fuzzy " alternative " medicine is over for TCM. Lets grab the bull by the horns and become truly professionally educated lest our scopes of practice are appropriated one by one by other more organised and standardised medical systems in the west as is happening before our very eyes. We must be the ones to set our own high standards and not leave ourselves open to demising scopes of practice and access to our tools. Any more excuses about how the US is different as any defence for the current clime of TCM education and practice issues is just ignorance and turning a blind eye to the real solution...........raise the education standards to the Asian level as much and as fast as possible! I also wouldn't dump Australia with the US in the same category here anyway, we have made far more progress in education and registration of TCM than the US. We are regaining the use of certain herbs, not losing them due to the establishment of education and practice standards for registration as an acupuncturist or Chinese herbalist. Interdisciplinary clinics are appearing in hospitals here and clinical hospital trials using herbal medicine are increasing. Several universities are actively involved in research in acupuncture and herbal medicine and these studies have been published in such peer reviewed western medicine journals as The Journal of Oncology and Journal of Immunology. The entry requirements for the 5 year undergraduate TCM program is fast approaching that of WM entry scores. It is high time people looked beyond the borders of the US for solutions and stopped making excuses for the current problems and continually looking for answers in the good ol' US of A over and over while ignoring the standards of TCM in its actual home and the progress being made in other western countries. PS - the word 'doctor' is not a trademark for WM everywhere in the world as it may be in the US and does NOT mean doctorate (doctorate in much of the world means one has a PhD). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I was not mixing titles with level of education in this post as I am now well aware that titles in the US have little to do with education level;) Having now noted this, what do educational titles actually function to convey there if not ones education level? On 13/12/2004, at 4:10 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Any more excuses about how the US is different as any defence for the > current clime of TCM education and practice issues is just ignorance > and turning a blind eye to the real solution >>>> Do not mix the usage of titles in US and level of education. I >>>> totally agree that the level of education in the west needs to be >>>> at least the same as china, even though I have to tell you I have >>>> seen many Chinese graduates that make you wander about their >>>> education as well. I have a feeling the Korean model is better. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 (it isn't in China either); >>>I do not know how it is now, but 1985 students did enter unsupervised practice after one year internship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 I worked in a large hospital in a major city. The graduates, BM, ie not MS or PhDs, had to do one year internship at the hospital after graduation and then practiced unsupervised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Any more excuses about how the US is different as any defence for the current clime of TCM education and practice issues is just ignorance and turning a blind eye to the real solution >>>Do not mix the usage of titles in US and level of education. I totally agree that the level of education in the west needs to be at least the same as china, even though I have to tell you I have seen many Chinese graduates that make you wander about their education as well. I have a feeling the Korean model is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 the word 'doctor' is not a trademark for WM everywhere >>>Not in the US as well. Physician is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 This is my first look into this group, as I have just joined. The more than dozen posts I received this weekend speak of the passion many share on this topic. I do have a comment. There are specific complaints about our educational requirements not including essential diagnostics. It is a generally fair assessment that our standards for TCM vary so greatly that some form of standarization would better serve our community. We're at a crossroads where the bar needs to be raised with regard to entry level competency. Many MD's speak of their basic education as being barely enough to feel comfortable (competent) practicing out of the shoot. " See one, do one, teach one. " Specialization and a narrowing of practice gets them closer, as does experience and continuing education. Prioritizing our needs as a profession seems to be necessary. First, our skills as Western diagnosticians are in question, this being the most imminent threat to our viability. Second, the TCM minimum skills or standards should be addressed. To that end, our Acupuncture Board could actually serve us by assisting in the establishment of CEU's by category, insuring maintenance of standards in perpetuity. Incidentally, rumors of threatened lawsuits against schools who are jeopardizing our future as practitioners by offering " sub-standard " programs (whether they actually do or not) will only fuel the flames by putting our core program under the microscope. It is my opinion that this dirty laundry should be handled within the profession after other concerns from without are addressed. Respectfully, David O. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > Having now noted this, what do educational titles actually function to > convey there if not ones education level > >>>Well they do but obviously used differently in different countries > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Having now noted this, what do educational titles actually function to convey there if not ones education level >>>Well they do but obviously used differently in different countries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Not true if you only mean MD. ND, DC and in FL AP (acupuncture physician). You will find that some will use Naturopathic physicians and also Chiropractic phsyicians. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:12:43 -0800 > >the word 'doctor' is not a trademark for WM everywhere > >>>Not in the US as well. Physician is > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 What is it that you feel needs to change with the education in the west? Are we talking about western science courses or more Chinese medical theory? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:10:37 -0800 > >Any more excuses about how the US is different as any defence for the >current clime of TCM education and practice issues is just ignorance >and turning a blind eye to the real solution > >>>Do not mix the usage of titles in US and level of education. I totally >agree that the level of education in the west needs to be at least the same >as china, even though I have to tell you I have seen many Chinese graduates >that make you wander about their education as well. I have a feeling the >Korean model is better. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 What is the meaning of the term basic for you? As there is such a large difference between schools that teach at the CA recognized level and those that do not, it would be helpful to know what we are talking about. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Steven Slater <laozhongyi > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:55:17 +1100 > > >On 12/12/2004, at 5:27 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > Steve, there is never going to be enough education to cover a large > > area > > like TCM/OM. As for titles, it is not the title itself that is as > > important > > as the consistancy of the education. Many countries seem to have a > > variation on this theme. Not to create an issue but I have met > > practitioners with a Bachelor's in TCM who did not seem to understand > > basic > > information either. It is important to recognize that education > > recieved in > > China and Korea is different than in the states or Australia. The > > Asian > > countries have been able to provide for a more lengthy scope of > > practice and > > provide care for a larger range of conditions including serious medical > > ones. It is also important to note that these providers are allowed > > to work > > in multi-disciplinary hospitals without the bias we face. Maybe > > someone can > > respond as to why we call these practitioners " doctor " then when they > > might > > only have a Master's? This is also a title issue that needs to be > > addressed. Somethings in life are not equal. Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > >Mike, > >Never enough education to cover TCM? That is why appropriate >educational standards are necessary for the basic level of education >and that is why post-graduate study should actually be post-graduate >study after this to allow specialists to develop. No one practitioner >can do it all or learn it all, we need specialists; but before that we >need a high standard of entry level education as a foundation. The >entire foundation may have to be torn down are rebuilt from scratch to >be suitable for the future of TCM in the west. Difficult? Yes. >Necessary? Yes. Painful? Yes. Impossible? No. > >Of course it is important to recognise that the education received in >China is different to that of the US - this is the basic issue. Much of >the west is ignoring this issue or using it as an excuse for our low >standards of TCM education in general. Saying it is different is no >excuse for the current state of affairs regarding TCM education in the >West; it is actually much of the reason FOR it. The fact you have met a >practitioner with a Bachelor in TCM who did not seem to understand >basic information is just another wake up call to what we should be >doing. This just points to the fact that there are problems with not >only with course content and the abilities of our lecturers but the >larger issues of who is let in to these courses to start with and how >they are assessed (or in many cases, not really assessed) for >suitability for graduation and let loose on the public as a >representative of the TCM profession. > >Scope of practice is an issue as is multi-disciplinary hospital >settings....but we will NEVER be let close in such areas unless we >have, as a minimum, the equivalent training to China/Korea etc. We >should not be viewing Asian education standards as too high, but as the >bare minimum for application in the Western medical atmosphere we live >in. We are practising a medical system.......the time for nite-school, >diplomas with moonbeams and warm-n-fuzzy " alternative " medicine is over >for TCM. Lets grab the bull by the horns and become truly >professionally educated lest our scopes of practice are appropriated >one by one by other more organised and standardised medical systems in >the west as is happening before our very eyes. We must be the ones to >set our own high standards and not leave ourselves open to demising >scopes of practice and access to our tools. > >Any more excuses about how the US is different as any defence for the >current clime of TCM education and practice issues is just ignorance >and turning a blind eye to the real solution...........raise the >education standards to the Asian level as much and as fast as possible! > >I also wouldn't dump Australia with the US in the same category here >anyway, we have made far more progress in education and registration of >TCM than the US. We are regaining the use of certain herbs, not losing >them due to the establishment of education and practice standards for >registration as an acupuncturist or Chinese herbalist. >Interdisciplinary clinics are appearing in hospitals here and clinical >hospital trials using herbal medicine are increasing. Several >universities are actively involved in research in acupuncture and >herbal medicine and these studies have been published in such peer >reviewed western medicine journals as The Journal of Oncology and >Journal of Immunology. The entry requirements for the 5 year >undergraduate TCM program is fast approaching that of WM entry scores. > >It is high time people looked beyond the borders of the US for >solutions and stopped making excuses for the current problems and >continually looking for answers in the good ol' US of A over and over >while ignoring the standards of TCM in its actual home and the progress >being made in other western countries. > >PS - the word 'doctor' is not a trademark for WM everywhere in the >world as it may be in the US and does NOT mean doctorate (doctorate in >much of the world means one has a PhD). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Remeber that a BM degree is a Bachelor of Medicine which has a lot of western sciences. Is this what we are wanting more of in our programs? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Steven Slater <laozhongyi > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:37:34 +1100 > >For some perspective on what level of basic education for TCM is in >China I have included some details from the normal study programs from >Shanghai Uni of TCM. > >I think they might give some a little perspective and food for thought >on what is 'real' and what is just 'smoke' in terms of TCM education in >the west and post-graduate education standards..... > >There are 3 possible majors for undergraduate courses (BM/BS) in > at this Uni, they are:- >1) Major of 5 years >2) Major of acupuncture and tuina - 5 years >3) Major of chinese pharmacology - 4 years > >Each school year has 3 semesters, semesters 1 and 2 are 15 weeks, and >semester 3 is 10 weeks. > >Fifth year is graduation practice in clinical workshops for 12 months. >With compulsory practice in:- >Internal medicine (6 months) >TCM surgery - 1 month >Acupuncture - 1 month >Paediatrics - 1 month >gynaecology - 1 month > >Voluntary practice: >WM internal medicine, dermatology, proctology, tuina, traumatology etc. > > >For majors in TCM or acupuncture/tuina, 299 credits are required for >graduation. > >1 credit = 14 class hours of theory >1 credit = every 14-28 hours of practical education >1 credit = 1 week of graduation practice. > >This is basic foundation education for undergraduate degrees in China >for TCM. > >For a Masters degree another 3 years study is required. >For a PhD, another 3 years after Masters is required. > >It is on the basis of these facts that IMO, a " masters " degree of 1 >year after a 3 year diploma in TCM or a 4 year masters/doctorate after >unrelated undergraduate studies are insufficient for producing TCM >professionals that tend to practice BOTH acupuncture and herbal >medicine (and to a large degree pharmacology) in the West. Such ideas >would be funny if it wasn't so serious in terms of our professional >future, status and reputation. > >No wonder the Chinese look at our abilites/qualifications as poles >apart from theirs (without even considering the language and >terminology issues). > >Having said all this.....there certainly are differences in both scope >of practice in China vs. the West and the degree of preparation for >graduates as primary care providers. However, I believe many hope to >increase out standing and abilities in these areas and would do well to >consider the education standards for such things in China if we are to >have any hope of achieving these aims. > >Best Wishes, > >Steve > >On 12/12/2004, at 12:26 AM, Steven Slater wrote: > > > > > Hi Sue, > > > > I would like to see more details of this course. After viewing what is > > available on the Uni website I stand by my statement of there being no > > REAL masters of TCM in Australia. The course is 3 years part-time and > > may soon be available as a 1-year full time course. > > > > The units covered do not extend upon a comprehensive 5 year basic > > degree level training that I undertook and the admission requirement is > > only 3 year diploma. > > > > 3 + 1 = 4 years (full time) does not extend on a 5 years full time > > degree program. > > > > While such post-graduate courses are of value, they are not what I > > would term " real " masters degrees. The real masters degrees I am > > talking about are what one would undertake in china in TCM. ie. after 5 > > years, a further 2-3 years (full-time) in advanced studies in a > > speciality with extensive clinical training included. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Steve > > > > On 11/12/2004, at 11:11 AM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Just a note to correct Steven's statement that Australia has > >> no 'real' Masters courses - the University of Western Sydney started > >> a Masters of Acupuncture and a Masters of TCM this year (2004). All > >> students are graduates (or equivalent) with clinical experience and > >> the intention is to extend and deepen learning past undergraduate > >> level. > >> It is an interesting course is anyone wants details I'd be happy to > >> supply them > >> regards > >> Sue > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 That would depend more on the state's regulations/licensure. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: Masters of CM in Australia >Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:20:38 -0800 > >Not true if you only mean MD. ND, DC and in FL AP (acupuncture physician). >You will find that some will use Naturopathic physicians and also >Chiropractic phsyicians. Later > >>>I believe in many states it is. Doctor is certainly not > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Not true if you only mean MD. ND, DC and in FL AP (acupuncture physician). You will find that some will use Naturopathic physicians and also Chiropractic phsyicians. Later >>>I believe in many states it is. Doctor is certainly not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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