Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hi, There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture board about practice details such as: how many patients you see a day, how long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and that sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to answers on this herbal board. Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more people a day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably need to be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture and herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only been in practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also practices acupuncture could see that many a day. So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day from you all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or just herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you charge more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of the herbs)? Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own practice: I have a client that I have been treating for headaches, upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get about $50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So I charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which is not covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her husband for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 because I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was wondering how others do this. I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a primarily acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but problematic. Not sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for insurance cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client less by providing a discount for payment received at time of service but cannot charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay your entire rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of pocket, that's not right. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " heylaurag " <heylaurag > > > Practice details >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 > > >Hi, > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture board >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a day, how >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and that >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to answers on >this herbal board. > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more people a >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably need to >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture and >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only been in >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also practices >acupuncture could see that many a day. > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day from you >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or just >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you charge >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of the herbs)? > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for headaches, >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get about >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So I >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which is not >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her husband >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 because >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was >wondering how others do this. > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a primarily >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! > >Laura > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hi Mike--Here's the thing: the insurance pays me " x " amount to treat the patient's pain, and I accept that amount to treat their pain. But if I am also treating their infertility (or some other issue not covered by insurance) and making an herbal formula for her etc, then I charge for that additional service. Its a seperate charge for a separate service. I cannot imagine that is illegal, but let me know if I am looking at it wrong. I appreciate your in-put. Laura , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but problematic. Not > sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for insurance > cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client less by > providing a discount for payment received at time of service but cannot > charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay your entire > rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of pocket, that's > not right. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > > > > Practice details > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 > > > > > >Hi, > > > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture board > >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a day, how > >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and that > >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to answers on > >this herbal board. > > > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more people a > >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably need to > >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than > >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture and > >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only been in > >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also practices > >acupuncture could see that many a day. > > > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day from you > >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or just > >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you charge > >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of the herbs)? > > > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own > >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for headaches, > >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get about > >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So I > >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which is not > >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her husband > >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 because > >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was > >wondering how others do this. > > > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using > >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. > > > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a primarily > >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 How is it that you are separating acupuncture for one condition from acupuncture for another. Most would look at this as one treatment given for two conditions. Only one individual. I would happen to agree with this assessment regardless. You are getting reimbursed for this treatment by insurance. Insurance companies will not pay for more than one treatment in a given day and that would probably hold here as well. I have often thought about having a treatment in the am and one in pm to treat different conditions. I know insurance would not go for it though. In this case, you could elect to treat the patient for covered treatment separate from treatment for other condition and charge patient for other visit. I would be careful that the insurance does not consider current practice as overcharging of patient for their copay and get you into hot water with them. They would not look to kindly on this even though it makes some sense. No arguments if you keep the two separate, that makes the best sense. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " heylaurag " <heylaurag > > >Re: Practice details >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:44:54 -0000 > > >Hi Mike--Here's the thing: the insurance pays me " x " amount to treat >the patient's pain, and I accept that amount to treat their pain. >But if I am also treating their infertility (or some other issue not >covered by insurance) and making an herbal formula for her etc, then >I charge for that additional service. Its a seperate charge for a >separate service. I cannot imagine that is illegal, but let me know >if I am looking at it wrong. I appreciate your in-put. > >Laura > > > , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but >problematic. Not > > sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for >insurance > > cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client less >by > > providing a discount for payment received at time of service but >cannot > > charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay your >entire > > rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of pocket, >that's > > not right. Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > > > > > > > Practice details > > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 > > > > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture board > > >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a day, >how > > >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and that > > >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to answers on > > >this herbal board. > > > > > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more people a > > >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably need >to > > >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than > > >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture and > > >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only been in > > >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also >practices > > >acupuncture could see that many a day. > > > > > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day from >you > > >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or just > > >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you >charge > > >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of the >herbs)? > > > > > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own > > >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for headaches, > > >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get >about > > >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So I > > >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which is >not > > >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her >husband > > >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 >because > > >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was > > >wondering how others do this. > > > > > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using > > >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. > > > > > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a >primarily > > >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! > > > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hi Brian, American Specialty Health actually has a form that patients can sign for " uncovered services " . It is used to get written proof that the patient knows that these services are not covered by their insurance, and therefore they will be responsible for that portion. So am modeling my billing after that concept. Another way to look at it is this: in the case of infertility I am prescribing herbs. Insurance doesn't cover herbal medicine, so the additional cost is to cover the formulation of the herbal formula. If anything I error on the side of being careful. There are very few that I am doing this with. An infertility patient is a good example though, because you almost always are going to prescribe herbs. Laura , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > How is it that you are separating acupuncture for one condition from > acupuncture for another. Most would look at this as one treatment given for > two conditions. Only one individual. I would happen to agree with this > assessment regardless. You are getting reimbursed for this treatment by > insurance. Insurance companies will not pay for more than one treatment in > a given day and that would probably hold here as well. I have often thought > about having a treatment in the am and one in pm to treat different > conditions. I know insurance would not go for it though. In this case, you > could elect to treat the patient for covered treatment separate from > treatment for other condition and charge patient for other visit. I would > be careful that the insurance does not consider current practice as > overcharging of patient for their copay and get you into hot water with > them. They would not look to kindly on this even though it makes some > sense. No arguments if you keep the two separate, that makes the best > sense. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > > > >Re: Practice details > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:44:54 -0000 > > > > > >Hi Mike--Here's the thing: the insurance pays me " x " amount to treat > >the patient's pain, and I accept that amount to treat their pain. > >But if I am also treating their infertility (or some other issue not > >covered by insurance) and making an herbal formula for her etc, then > >I charge for that additional service. Its a seperate charge for a > >separate service. I cannot imagine that is illegal, but let me know > >if I am looking at it wrong. I appreciate your in-put. > > > >Laura > > > > > > , " mike Bowser " > ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but > >problematic. Not > > > sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for > >insurance > > > cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client less > >by > > > providing a discount for payment received at time of service but > >cannot > > > charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay your > >entire > > > rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of pocket, > >that's > > > not right. Later > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > > > > > > > > > > Practice details > > > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > > > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture board > > > >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a day, > >how > > > >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and that > > > >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to answers on > > > >this herbal board. > > > > > > > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more people a > > > >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably need > >to > > > >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than > > > >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture and > > > >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only been in > > > >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also > >practices > > > >acupuncture could see that many a day. > > > > > > > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day from > >you > > > >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or just > > > >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you > >charge > > > >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of the > >herbs)? > > > > > > > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own > > > >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for headaches, > > > >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get > >about > > > >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So I > > > >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which is > >not > > > >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her > >husband > > > >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 > >because > > > >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was > > > >wondering how others do this. > > > > > > > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using > > > >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. > > > > > > > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a > >primarily > > > >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! > > > > > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hey everyone--what about responses to the other questions I was asking about re: practice management? There were lots of responses on the other board....we can't let them show us up can we? Laura , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > How is it that you are separating acupuncture for one condition from > acupuncture for another. Most would look at this as one treatment given for > two conditions. Only one individual. I would happen to agree with this > assessment regardless. You are getting reimbursed for this treatment by > insurance. Insurance companies will not pay for more than one treatment in > a given day and that would probably hold here as well. I have often thought > about having a treatment in the am and one in pm to treat different > conditions. I know insurance would not go for it though. In this case, you > could elect to treat the patient for covered treatment separate from > treatment for other condition and charge patient for other visit. I would > be careful that the insurance does not consider current practice as > overcharging of patient for their copay and get you into hot water with > them. They would not look to kindly on this even though it makes some > sense. No arguments if you keep the two separate, that makes the best > sense. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > > > >Re: Practice details > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:44:54 -0000 > > > > > >Hi Mike--Here's the thing: the insurance pays me " x " amount to treat > >the patient's pain, and I accept that amount to treat their pain. > >But if I am also treating their infertility (or some other issue not > >covered by insurance) and making an herbal formula for her etc, then > >I charge for that additional service. Its a seperate charge for a > >separate service. I cannot imagine that is illegal, but let me know > >if I am looking at it wrong. I appreciate your in-put. > > > >Laura > > > > > > , " mike Bowser " > ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but > >problematic. Not > > > sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for > >insurance > > > cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client less > >by > > > providing a discount for payment received at time of service but > >cannot > > > charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay your > >entire > > > rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of pocket, > >that's > > > not right. Later > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > > > > > > > > > > Practice details > > > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > > > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture board > > > >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a day, > >how > > > >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and that > > > >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to answers on > > > >this herbal board. > > > > > > > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more people a > > > >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably need > >to > > > >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than > > > >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture and > > > >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only been in > > > >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also > >practices > > > >acupuncture could see that many a day. > > > > > > > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day from > >you > > > >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or just > > > >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you > >charge > > > >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of the > >herbs)? > > > > > > > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own > > > >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for headaches, > > > >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get > >about > > > >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So I > > > >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which is > >not > > > >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her > >husband > > > >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 > >because > > > >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was > > > >wondering how others do this. > > > > > > > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using > > > >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. > > > > > > > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a > >primarily > > > >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! > > > > > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 I have a small part-time practice and see less than twenty. I am a full-time student and am in a doctorate program for chiropractic. I use predominantly acupuncture and moxibustion (along Japanese ideas). I use patents as an add on if I feel they are needed. I have chosen not to take insurance but would issue a form to patients for their reimbursement. I do not want to deal with insurance companies on the phone, it takes too much time and energy. Hope this helps. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 12/15/04 9:47 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hey everyone--what about responses to the other questions I was > asking about re: practice management? There were lots of responses > on the other board....we can't let them show us up can we? > > Laura > > > , " mike Bowser " > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: >> > How is it that you are separating acupuncture for one condition > from >> > acupuncture for another. Most would look at this as one treatment > given for >> > two conditions. Only one individual. I would happen to agree with > this >> > assessment regardless. You are getting reimbursed for this > treatment by >> > insurance. Insurance companies will not pay for more than one > treatment in >> > a given day and that would probably hold here as well. I have > often thought >> > about having a treatment in the am and one in pm to treat different >> > conditions. I know insurance would not go for it though. In this > case, you >> > could elect to treat the patient for covered treatment separate > from >> > treatment for other condition and charge patient for other visit. > I would >> > be careful that the insurance does not consider current practice as >> > overcharging of patient for their copay and get you into hot water > with >> > them. They would not look to kindly on this even though it makes > some >> > sense. No arguments if you keep the two separate, that makes the > best >> > sense. Later >> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> > >>> > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Re: Practice details >>> > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:44:54 -0000 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Hi Mike--Here's the thing: the insurance pays me " x " amount to > treat >>> > >the patient's pain, and I accept that amount to treat their pain. >>> > >But if I am also treating their infertility (or some other issue > not >>> > >covered by insurance) and making an herbal formula for her etc, > then >>> > >I charge for that additional service. Its a seperate charge for a >>> > >separate service. I cannot imagine that is illegal, but let me know >>> > >if I am looking at it wrong. I appreciate your in-put. >>> > > >>> > >Laura >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > , " mike Bowser " >>> > ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: >>>> > > > Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but >>> > >problematic. Not >>>> > > > sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for >>> > >insurance >>>> > > > cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client > less >>> > >by >>>> > > > providing a discount for payment received at time of service but >>> > >cannot >>>> > > > charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay > your >>> > >entire >>>> > > > rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of > pocket, >>> > >that's >>>> > > > not right. Later >>>> > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > Practice details >>>>> > > > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Hi, >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture > board >>>>> > > > >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a > day, >>> > >how >>>>> > > > >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and > that >>>>> > > > >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to > answers on >>>>> > > > >this herbal board. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more > people a >>>>> > > > >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably > need >>> > >to >>>>> > > > >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than >>>>> > > > >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture > and >>>>> > > > >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only > been in >>>>> > > > >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also >>> > >practices >>>>> > > > >acupuncture could see that many a day. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day > from >>> > >you >>>>> > > > >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or > just >>>>> > > > >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you >>> > >charge >>>>> > > > >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of > the >>> > >herbs)? >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own >>>>> > > > >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for > headaches, >>>>> > > > >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get >>> > >about >>>>> > > > >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So > I >>>>> > > > >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which > is >>> > >not >>>>> > > > >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her >>> > >husband >>>>> > > > >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 >>> > >because >>>>> > > > >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was >>>>> > > > >wondering how others do this. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using >>>>> > > > >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a >>> > >primarily >>>>> > > > >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Laura >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 I am glad you mentioned this company as this is a growing concept for a non-insurance entity to broker acupuncturist services to an insurance. My one concern with this is that they might still have a requirement to be able to audit your patient records. If we think about this, they have no right to request such a thing. We are obligated to protect our patients privacy by law. This puts us in a bit of a bind. Be aware of such things. How do others feel about this? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 12/15/04 9:46 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Brian, American Specialty Health actually has a form that patients > can sign for " uncovered services " . It is used to get written proof > that the patient knows that these services are not covered by their > insurance, and therefore they will be responsible for that portion. > So am modeling my billing after that concept. > > Another way to look at it is this: in the case of infertility I am > prescribing herbs. Insurance doesn't cover herbal medicine, so the > additional cost is to cover the formulation of the herbal formula. > > If anything I error on the side of being careful. There are very few > that I am doing this with. An infertility patient is a good example > though, because you almost always are going to prescribe herbs. > > Laura > > > , " mike Bowser " > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: >> > How is it that you are separating acupuncture for one condition > from >> > acupuncture for another. Most would look at this as one treatment > given for >> > two conditions. Only one individual. I would happen to agree with > this >> > assessment regardless. You are getting reimbursed for this > treatment by >> > insurance. Insurance companies will not pay for more than one > treatment in >> > a given day and that would probably hold here as well. I have > often thought >> > about having a treatment in the am and one in pm to treat different >> > conditions. I know insurance would not go for it though. In this > case, you >> > could elect to treat the patient for covered treatment separate > from >> > treatment for other condition and charge patient for other visit. > I would >> > be careful that the insurance does not consider current practice as >> > overcharging of patient for their copay and get you into hot water > with >> > them. They would not look to kindly on this even though it makes > some >> > sense. No arguments if you keep the two separate, that makes the > best >> > sense. Later >> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> > >>> > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Re: Practice details >>> > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:44:54 -0000 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Hi Mike--Here's the thing: the insurance pays me " x " amount to > treat >>> > >the patient's pain, and I accept that amount to treat their pain. >>> > >But if I am also treating their infertility (or some other issue > not >>> > >covered by insurance) and making an herbal formula for her etc, > then >>> > >I charge for that additional service. Its a seperate charge for a >>> > >separate service. I cannot imagine that is illegal, but let me know >>> > >if I am looking at it wrong. I appreciate your in-put. >>> > > >>> > >Laura >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > , " mike Bowser " >>> > ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: >>>> > > > Parting a treatment as to insurance coverage is unique but >>> > >problematic. Not >>>> > > > sure that this would be legal as you are now charging more for >>> > >insurance >>>> > > > cases based upon copay. You can charge a cash paying client > less >>> > >by >>>> > > > providing a discount for payment received at time of service but >>> > >cannot >>>> > > > charge an insurance more regardless of whether or not they pay > your >>> > >entire >>>> > > > rate. This has you increasing the patients copay or out of > pocket, >>> > >that's >>>> > > > not right. Later >>>> > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > Practice details >>>>> > > > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:58:24 -0000 >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Hi, >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >There has been quite a bit of talk lately on the acupuncture > board >>>>> > > > >about practice details such as: how many patients you see a > day, >>> > >how >>>>> > > > >long you spend with each patient, how you bill, insurance, and > that >>>>> > > > >sort of thing. I'm curious how their answers compare to > answers on >>>>> > > > >this herbal board. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Apparently a fair amount of acupuncturists see 20 or more > people a >>>>> > > > >day! This amazed me. I think that as herbalists we probably > need >>> > >to >>>>> > > > >be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than >>>>> > > > >acupuncturists. What do you think? I offer both acupuncture > and >>>>> > > > >herbs, and although I am probably slow because I have only > been in >>>>> > > > >practice a year, I cannot imagine that an herbalist who also >>> > >practices >>>>> > > > >acupuncture could see that many a day. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >So what I am hoping to get is descriptions of a typical day > from >>> > >you >>>>> > > > >all. Do most of you provide both acupuncture and herbs, or > just >>>>> > > > >herbs? How much time do you spend with each patient? Do you >>> > >charge >>>>> > > > >more if you are providing a formula (more beyond the cost of > the >>> > >herbs)? >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Also, what about insurance? Let me give an example from my own >>>>> > > > >practice: I have a client that I have been treating for > headaches, >>>>> > > > >upper back pain, and infertility. I bill her insurance and get >>> > >about >>>>> > > > >$50 with her co-pay, which is $15 less than my normal fee. So > I >>>>> > > > >charge her the additional $15 to treat her infertility, which > is >>> > >not >>>>> > > > >covered by her insurance. On the other hand, I also treat her >>> > >husband >>>>> > > > >for low back pain, and I do not charge him the additional $15 >>> > >because >>>>> > > > >I am only treating low back pain for him. Make sense? I was >>>>> > > > >wondering how others do this. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >I also was wondering if, as herbalist, most of you prefer using >>>>> > > > >acupuncture or herbs to treat pain. >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Anything you can share about how your practice compares to a >>> > >primarily >>>>> > > > >acupuncture practice would be appreciated. Thanks! >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >Laura >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 I think that as herbalists we probably need to be much more thorough in our questioning and analysis than acupuncturists. >>>Its not uncommon for an herbalist to see 50 patients in one morning in China. The more experienced you are the less time it takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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