Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 In a message dated 12/15/2004 3:52:07 PM Central Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Limit the small guy benefit the large one. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac One benefit to us, here in the US as opposed to many other places, is that all we need to do as a group is to gather enough money into a coherent SIG (Special Interest Group) and be treated just like the " big guys. " Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 A prominent member of our community asked me for help with his sick son one day this past year. this man has played a large role in Acupuncture related legislation in the US and CA. While somewhat right leaning, this fellow has largely focused his efforts on regulatory activities inside the current system. Licensing, accreditation, etc. Anyway, his son needed a patent ASAP for asthma. Ding chuan wan had worked well in the past, unfortunately we no longer stocked ma huang containing patents. this man, who had the power to do so, demanded we retrieve the item from our back room and provide for his ill child. I gladly complied. Ethically and clinically, this was the right thing to do. Technically illegal, but that is the point. Can any of you imagine a situation where you had a sick child and the only thing that stood between you and necessary medicine was government red tape and you would thus decide to let that child suffer or die. Of course not, if that child is your own. But when you restrict access of such items to others, but not yourself in an emergency, where do you draw the line and what gives you the right? If the line can be crossed by any one of you when you believe it is justified, then the line has no meaning. The fact that we would all cross that line is very telling. It is hypocrisy of the worst kind. OK for me, but not for them. Everyone should be free to make these decisions as they see fit. And if there is a market demand for some sort of voluntary regulatory structure (as I believe there would be, like with water filters), then it will happen. People should have the option of being protected, but to require we accept someone else's protections from anything is ludicrous. Why not license meat eating and bungy jumping. Follow the money. Licensing only exists in fields when there is financial gain from it and fields where this is not true remain unlicensed. The common denominator is always money, not public safety or freedom. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 While somewhat right leaning? - Golly, he must really be an SOB. This brings up something that has always confused me. People who are " left leaning, " which is the way most people in the alternative medical community lean, always want bigger and bigger government, more meddling - until of course it interferes with them. Generally people on the right want smaller. Perhaps the right is not the anathema you think it is. Bart Paulding, LAc Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:00 AM cha libertarian thought exercise A prominent member of our community asked me for help with his sick son one day this past year. this man has played a large role in Acupuncture related legislation in the US and CA. While somewhat right leaning, this fellow has largely focused his efforts on regulatory activities inside the current system. Licensing, accreditation, etc. Anyway, his son needed a patent ASAP for asthma. Ding chuan wan had worked well in the past, unfortunately we no longer stocked ma huang containing patents. this man, who had the power to do so, demanded we retrieve the item from our back room and provide for his ill child. I gladly complied. Ethically and clinically, this was the right thing to do. Technically illegal, but that is the point. Can any of you imagine a situation where you had a sick child and the only thing that stood between you and necessary medicine was government red tape and you would thus decide to let that child suffer or die. Of course not, if that child is your own. But when you restrict access of such items to others, but not yourself in an emergency, where do you draw the line and what gives you the right? If the line can be crossed by any one of you when you believe it is justified, then the line has no meaning. The fact that we would all cross that line is very telling. It is hypocrisy of the worst kind. OK for me, but not for them. Everyone should be free to make these decisions as they see fit. And if there is a market demand for some sort of voluntary regulatory structure (as I believe there would be, like with water filters), then it will happen. People should have the option of being protected, but to require we accept someone else's protections from anything is ludicrous. Why not license meat eating and bungy jumping. Follow the money. Licensing only exists in fields when there is financial gain from it and fields where this is not true remain unlicensed. The common denominator is always money, not public safety or freedom. Chinese Herbs Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 While your statements of money are true, reality is not so nice to us. I cannot beleive that we argue for standards and then appear to want no licensure. Makes no sense. Where are the standards (similar to where's the Beef?)? We MUST be licensed unless you only want to practice herbs only. Which appears to be on its way to being a dinosaur under the Republican administration. Please do not tell me that today's Republicans are related to the old " business-like " Repulbicans. The current Reps make and enforce illegal laws in the name of special interests. That is how they have done so well for themselves at the expense of others, the environment, etc. Limit the small guy benefit the large one. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > < > >cha > libertarian thought exercise >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:59:36 -0800 > > >A prominent member of our community asked me for help with his sick son >one day this past year. this man has played a large role in >Acupuncture related legislation in the US and CA. While somewhat right >leaning, this fellow has largely focused his efforts on regulatory >activities inside the current system. Licensing, accreditation, etc. >Anyway, his son needed a patent ASAP for asthma. Ding chuan wan had >worked well in the past, unfortunately we no longer stocked ma huang >containing patents. this man, who had the power to do so, demanded we >retrieve the item from our back room and provide for his ill child. I >gladly complied. Ethically and clinically, this was the right thing to >do. Technically illegal, but that is the point. > >Can any of you imagine a situation where you had a sick child and the >only thing that stood between you and necessary medicine was government >red tape and you would thus decide to let that child suffer or die. Of >course not, if that child is your own. But when you restrict access of >such items to others, but not yourself in an emergency, where do you >draw the line and what gives you the right? If the line can be crossed >by any one of you when you believe it is justified, then the line has >no meaning. The fact that we would all cross that line is very >telling. It is hypocrisy of the worst kind. OK for me, but not for >them. Everyone should be free to make these decisions as they see fit. > And if there is a market demand for some sort of voluntary regulatory >structure (as I believe there would be, like with water filters), then >it will happen. People should have the option of being protected, but >to require we accept someone else's protections from anything is >ludicrous. Why not license meat eating and bungy jumping. Follow the >money. Licensing only exists in fields when there is financial gain >from it and fields where this is not true remain unlicensed. The >common denominator is always money, not public safety or freedom. > > >Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Recently you posted that you would not tolerate political posting on this list. The effect of this is to leave people unable or unwilling to respond, and therefore leave your soapbox statements unchallenged. There are many good arguments challenging libertarianism, and a more balanced view of pros and cons of libertarianism and regulation would at least have included discussion of the California energy crisis. But is that what we want to see on this list. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. - George Orwell Bart Rory Kerr [rorykerr] Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:17 AM Re: libertarian thought exercise Recently you posted that you would not tolerate political posting on this list. The effect of this is to leave people unable or unwilling to respond, and therefore leave your soapbox statements unchallenged. There are many good arguments challenging libertarianism, and a more balanced view of pros and cons of libertarianism and regulation would at least have included discussion of the California energy crisis. But is that what we want to see on this list. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 > > > > Recently you posted that you would not tolerate political posting on > this list. The effect of this is to leave people unable or unwilling > to respond, and therefore leave your soapbox statements unchallenged. > I actually said I would not tolerate a posting war over the election, i.e. Bush bashing or Kerry bashing that can only be substantiated or rebutted with long drawn out off topic discussions of who's wimpier or more arrogant or whatever. However politics in general has always been fair game. And the philosophies of political parties, which are the repositories of ideas, have especially been fair game. focusing on parties rather than politicians is one way to avoid unncessarily personalizing and polarizing a discussion. Most federal politicans walk lockstep with party philosophy, so the critique is far more accurate than it might have been in an more independent era (was there ever one?). Clearly others have understood this distinction and have not held back and have not been sanctioned in any way. I would prefer to avoid character assassination on all sides on this list as this seems to be the theme of the day here in real life SoCal TCM. Now if you cannot separate yourself from your ideas and take any attack on your ideas as a character attack, tough luck. I don't support that concept. So fire away at ideas, just keep the slander to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Meddling often comes from our competitors (MD/DC/ND) as well. Lefties are not asking for bigger government, only a government that does its job. Need I remind you that our government has grown as has the deficit to record levels under a Republican administration. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " GBP " <obice > > >RE: libertarian thought exercise >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:11:27 -0800 > > >While somewhat right leaning? - Golly, he must really be an SOB. This >brings up something that has always confused me. People who are " left >leaning, " which is the way most people in the alternative medical community >lean, always want bigger and bigger government, more meddling - until of >course it interferes with them. Generally people on the right want >smaller. >Perhaps the right is not the anathema you think it is. > > > >Bart Paulding, LAc > > > > > > > >Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:00 AM >cha > libertarian thought exercise > > > > >A prominent member of our community asked me for help with his sick son >one day this past year. this man has played a large role in >Acupuncture related legislation in the US and CA. While somewhat right >leaning, this fellow has largely focused his efforts on regulatory >activities inside the current system. Licensing, accreditation, etc. >Anyway, his son needed a patent ASAP for asthma. Ding chuan wan had >worked well in the past, unfortunately we no longer stocked ma huang >containing patents. this man, who had the power to do so, demanded we >retrieve the item from our back room and provide for his ill child. I >gladly complied. Ethically and clinically, this was the right thing to >do. Technically illegal, but that is the point. > >Can any of you imagine a situation where you had a sick child and the >only thing that stood between you and necessary medicine was government >red tape and you would thus decide to let that child suffer or die. Of >course not, if that child is your own. But when you restrict access of >such items to others, but not yourself in an emergency, where do you >draw the line and what gives you the right? If the line can be crossed >by any one of you when you believe it is justified, then the line has >no meaning. The fact that we would all cross that line is very >telling. It is hypocrisy of the worst kind. OK for me, but not for >them. Everyone should be free to make these decisions as they see fit. > And if there is a market demand for some sort of voluntary regulatory >structure (as I believe there would be, like with water filters), then >it will happen. People should have the option of being protected, but >to require we accept someone else's protections from anything is >ludicrous. Why not license meat eating and bungy jumping. Follow the >money. Licensing only exists in fields when there is financial gain >from it and fields where this is not true remain unlicensed. The >common denominator is always money, not public safety or freedom. > > >Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free >discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Yes, I don't want a bigger government, I just want a government that puts our resources towards things that are important to me (corporate welfare and war don't fall under that category). Libertarianism is a nice fantasy, but a cruel and uncaring reality. Laura , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > Meddling often comes from our competitors (MD/DC/ND) as well. Lefties are > not asking for bigger government, only a government that does its job. Need > I remind you that our government has grown as has the deficit to record > levels under a Republican administration. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " GBP " <obice@s...> > > > > > >RE: libertarian thought exercise > >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:11:27 -0800 > > > > > >While somewhat right leaning? - Golly, he must really be an SOB. This > >brings up something that has always confused me. People who are " left > >leaning, " which is the way most people in the alternative medical community > >lean, always want bigger and bigger government, more meddling - until of > >course it interferes with them. Generally people on the right want > >smaller. > >Perhaps the right is not the anathema you think it is. > > > > > > > >Bart Paulding, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [@c...] > >Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:00 AM > >cha > > libertarian thought exercise > > > > > > > > > >A prominent member of our community asked me for help with his sick son > >one day this past year. this man has played a large role in > >Acupuncture related legislation in the US and CA. While somewhat right > >leaning, this fellow has largely focused his efforts on regulatory > >activities inside the current system. Licensing, accreditation, etc. > >Anyway, his son needed a patent ASAP for asthma. Ding chuan wan had > >worked well in the past, unfortunately we no longer stocked ma huang > >containing patents. this man, who had the power to do so, demanded we > >retrieve the item from our back room and provide for his ill child. I > >gladly complied. Ethically and clinically, this was the right thing to > >do. Technically illegal, but that is the point. > > > >Can any of you imagine a situation where you had a sick child and the > >only thing that stood between you and necessary medicine was government > >red tape and you would thus decide to let that child suffer or die. Of > >course not, if that child is your own. But when you restrict access of > >such items to others, but not yourself in an emergency, where do you > >draw the line and what gives you the right? If the line can be crossed > >by any one of you when you believe it is justified, then the line has > >no meaning. The fact that we would all cross that line is very > >telling. It is hypocrisy of the worst kind. OK for me, but not for > >them. Everyone should be free to make these decisions as they see fit. > > And if there is a market demand for some sort of voluntary regulatory > >structure (as I believe there would be, like with water filters), then > >it will happen. People should have the option of being protected, but > >to require we accept someone else's protections from anything is > >ludicrous. Why not license meat eating and bungy jumping. Follow the > >money. Licensing only exists in fields when there is financial gain > >from it and fields where this is not true remain unlicensed. The > >common denominator is always money, not public safety or freedom. > > > > > >Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > >free > >discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 I don't know if I would agree that most people in the alternative medical community are " left leaning " although I am in conservative San Diego, so maybe I don't have an accurate experience of the entire community. I would say that many tend to be " new age leaning " and unfortunately that has become confused with " left leaning " while having nothing to do with politics. I am not leaning, but definitely on the left in the political spectrum. I am not interested in bigger and bigger government, but I am interested in a government that can offer representation of the people against bigger and bigger corporate interests. Corporate interest such as meddling in my privacy in order to better market product. Additionally, in my lifetime, every right wing administration has increased spending and the deficit, they just spend it in different areas than a more liberal admin. might. AND this administration in particular has increased the size of government, not decreased it. If you want to make generalizations, perhaps we could also say that people on the right want smaller government until they are injured as a result of corporate greed and then they want compensation. But the truth of the matter is, that too is a gross generalization. Sheila White GBP <obice Dec 15, 2004 1:11 PM RE: libertarian thought exercise While somewhat right leaning? - Golly, he must really be an SOB. This brings up something that has always confused me. People who are " left leaning, " which is the way most people in the alternative medical community lean, always want bigger and bigger government, more meddling - until of course it interferes with them. Generally people on the right want smaller. Perhaps the right is not the anathema you think it is. Bart Paulding, LAc Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:00 AM T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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