Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 I noticed that the new Bensky MM advises against the use of ginseng with coffee. It doesn't give any details, presumably it is based on the fact that some people find ginseng to be stimulating, so some people could develop insomnia from the combination of ginseng with a stimulant. However, I haven't yet seen this caution so far in Chinese books, nor have I seen it reported from WM. Since so much has been written on ginseng, I might just not be looking in the right places. If anyone can steer me to the proper place to find the info, I'd appreciate it. A pubmed search reveals known interactions between ginseng combined with warfarin, alcohol, and phenelzine (caution is extended to all MAOIs with ginseng). Specifically, pubmed searches show that ginseng lowers blood concentrations of alcohol and warfarin, and can induce mania if used with phenelzine. Pubmed didn't show any studies that documented a risk of ginseng use with caffeine or coffee. Chinese texts indicate that ginseng should not be combined with daikon (Chinese radish) or with tea, in order to avoid influencing its supplementing power. But it would be a stretch to link tea and coffee based on that statement alone. Ginseng and coffee are both classified as warm, but a lot of things are warm; and I haven't seen any dietary therapy text entries on coffee that mention ginseng. Ginseng is not ascribed a ti shen (spirit-arousing) property, as we see in coffee, so the two don't have an obvious overlap from the TCM side. So my main question is, is there a documented risk associated with ginseng and coffee? Since these two substances are often used together, I am interested in whether this statement is based on evidence or if it is influenced by the fashionable demonizing of coffee by the alt medicine world. Since ginseng is not a stimulant drug itself, it would make more sense to see ephedra (which has sympathomimetic properties) cautioned with coffee rather than ginseng. If there is a true risk of interaction between ginseng and coffee, wouldn't the risk be even higher if combining ginseng with ephedra or with the amphetamine derivatives used to treat ADHD in children? Presumably it is safe to assume that ginseng use should be cautioned with yohimbe (both are perceived by the general public to be sexual stimulants) because yohimbe does inhibit MAO, which is a risk factor with ginseng. If the risk is just a subjective sensation of increased stimulation rather than a chemically dangerous interaction, would a habituated coffee user risk any ill-effects from ginseng use (assuming that they no longer experience marked stimulation from caffeine)? I would be really interested to known whether there is strong evidence in Chinese or English literature to support this statement, because if the two are truly not safe to use together, there are serious implications for patients and consumers. Opinions? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 seems like the Koreans should have some good data on ginseng and coffee..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 I would just caution against coffee period, with or without ginseng. , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > I noticed that the new Bensky MM advises against the use of ginseng > with coffee. It doesn't give any details, presumably it is based on > the fact that some people find ginseng to be stimulating, so some > people could develop insomnia from the combination of ginseng with a > stimulant. However, I haven't yet seen this caution so far in > Chinese books, nor have I seen it reported from WM. Since so much > has been written on ginseng, I might just not be looking in the > right places. If anyone can steer me to the proper place to find > the info, I'd appreciate it. > > A pubmed search reveals known interactions between ginseng combined > with warfarin, alcohol, and phenelzine (caution is extended to all > MAOIs with ginseng). Specifically, pubmed searches show that > ginseng lowers blood concentrations of alcohol and warfarin, and can > induce mania if used with phenelzine. Pubmed didn't show any studies > that documented a risk of ginseng use with caffeine or coffee. > > Chinese texts indicate that ginseng should not be combined with > daikon (Chinese radish) or with tea, in order to avoid influencing > its supplementing power. But it would be a stretch to link tea and > coffee based on that statement alone. Ginseng and coffee are both > classified as warm, but a lot of things are warm; and I haven't seen > any dietary therapy text entries on coffee that mention ginseng. > Ginseng is not ascribed a ti shen (spirit-arousing) property, as we > see in coffee, so the two don't have an obvious overlap from the TCM > side. > > So my main question is, is there a documented risk associated with > ginseng and coffee? Since these two substances are often used > together, I am interested in whether this statement is based on > evidence or if it is influenced by the fashionable demonizing of > coffee by the alt medicine world. Since ginseng is not a stimulant > drug itself, it would make more sense to see ephedra (which has > sympathomimetic properties) cautioned with coffee rather than > ginseng. If there is a true risk of interaction between ginseng and > coffee, wouldn't the risk be even higher if combining ginseng with > ephedra or with the amphetamine derivatives used to treat ADHD in > children? Presumably it is safe to assume that ginseng use should be > cautioned with yohimbe (both are perceived by the general public to > be sexual stimulants) because yohimbe does inhibit MAO, which is a > risk factor with ginseng. > > If the risk is just a subjective sensation of increased stimulation > rather than a chemically dangerous interaction, would a habituated > coffee user risk any ill-effects from ginseng use (assuming that > they no longer experience marked stimulation from caffeine)? > > I would be really interested to known whether there is strong > evidence in Chinese or English literature to support this statement, > because if the two are truly not safe to use together, there are > serious implications for patients and consumers. Opinions? > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without ginseng. I would not be so quick to malign coffee. It is an herb and can be used judiciously. I would suggest,as a start, reading Subhuti's article at http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm Warren S. > > > , " smilinglotus " > <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > > I noticed that the new Bensky MM advises against the use of ginseng > > with coffee. It doesn't give any details, presumably it is based on > > the fact that some people find ginseng to be stimulating, so some > > people could develop insomnia from the combination of ginseng with a > > stimulant. However, I haven't yet seen this caution so far in > > Chinese books, nor have I seen it reported from WM. Since so much > > has been written on ginseng, I might just not be looking in the > > right places. If anyone can steer me to the proper place to find > > the info, I'd appreciate it. > > > > A pubmed search reveals known interactions between ginseng combined > > with warfarin, alcohol, and phenelzine (caution is extended to all > > MAOIs with ginseng). Specifically, pubmed searches show that > > ginseng lowers blood concentrations of alcohol and warfarin, and can > > induce mania if used with phenelzine. Pubmed didn't show any studies > > that documented a risk of ginseng use with caffeine or coffee. > > > > Chinese texts indicate that ginseng should not be combined with > > daikon (Chinese radish) or with tea, in order to avoid influencing > > its supplementing power. But it would be a stretch to link tea and > > coffee based on that statement alone. Ginseng and coffee are both > > classified as warm, but a lot of things are warm; and I haven't seen > > any dietary therapy text entries on coffee that mention ginseng. > > Ginseng is not ascribed a ti shen (spirit-arousing) property, as we > > see in coffee, so the two don't have an obvious overlap from the TCM > > side. > > > > So my main question is, is there a documented risk associated with > > ginseng and coffee? Since these two substances are often used > > together, I am interested in whether this statement is based on > > evidence or if it is influenced by the fashionable demonizing of > > coffee by the alt medicine world. Since ginseng is not a stimulant > > drug itself, it would make more sense to see ephedra (which has > > sympathomimetic properties) cautioned with coffee rather than > > ginseng. If there is a true risk of interaction between ginseng and > > coffee, wouldn't the risk be even higher if combining ginseng with > > ephedra or with the amphetamine derivatives used to treat ADHD in > > children? Presumably it is safe to assume that ginseng use should be > > cautioned with yohimbe (both are perceived by the general public to > > be sexual stimulants) because yohimbe does inhibit MAO, which is a > > risk factor with ginseng. > > > > If the risk is just a subjective sensation of increased stimulation > > rather than a chemically dangerous interaction, would a habituated > > coffee user risk any ill-effects from ginseng use (assuming that > > they no longer experience marked stimulation from caffeine)? > > > > I would be really interested to known whether there is strong > > evidence in Chinese or English literature to support this statement, > > because if the two are truly not safe to use together, there are > > serious implications for patients and consumers. Opinions? > > > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without ginseng. why? coffee is an herb like any other herb. it is nontoxic and has a long history of safe use worldwide. almost all of the new age rhetoric about coffee is completely unsubstantiated. Coffee in fact has been shown to protect against suicidal depression and contains antioxidants. It may aggravate fibrocystic breast disease, anxiety and insomnia, but it hardly is bad for everyone. In ayurveda, it is said to actually be good for kapha or damp types due to its warm, aromatic stimulation. Caffeine is an all round good for you substance, having numerous beneficial qualities like lowering triglycerides. Do you support tea drinking? Roger Wicke has made an interesting case against tea despite its apparent health benefits. However, in either case, epidemiology or lack thereof, belies the suspicions. There is just no evidence that coffee (or tea) is bad for actual populations of people (BTW, I personally can't stand coffee, so no rationalization here). Just as there never was solid evidence linking meat eating and heart disease. We should be real careful not to promulgate known factual errors (like coffee causes disease). It just discredits us as a profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 , " wsheir " <wsheir> wrote: > > , " heylaurag " > <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without > ginseng. > > I would not be so quick to malign coffee. > It is an herb and can be used judiciously. I would suggest,as a > start, reading Subhuti's article at > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm > > Warren S. Coffee was initially used by monks to maintain mental alertness for prolonged meditation. Despite the fact that it was highly regarded in the culture of its origin, coffee has been subjected to the prejudice and contempt of individuals in other cultures up to the present day. Yet the question remains: Is there any evidence that the moderate use of coffee poses health risks to otherwise healthy individuals? Although the abuse of coffee certainly poses health risks, the moderate use of coffee is not, to my awareness, convincingly linked to any ill effects on health. In fact, coffee has been shown to have protective effects against Parkinson's. Coffee may not be a positive influence on the lives of some individuals, but in many cultures coffee plays an important role in society up to the present day. For example, the French often take a break from their day to enjoy coffee with friends over a good conversation. Taking a break away from stress and sharing insightful communication is linked to many positive effects on health. Cultural prejudice against the medicinals used in foreign lands is a persistent trend in human history. Practitioners of medicine should be careful to base their opinions on substantial evidence and should be vigilant to keep an open mind and assess each medicinal herb that they encounter without any religious or cultural interference. Different people in different cultures use different plants in different ways for different reasons. Blanket statements that suggest that any single agent is inadvisable across the board has nothing in common with the balanced perspective that marks Chinese medical theory. All agents have potential benefits and potential risks. Coffee certainly has its share of both. So does ginseng. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Yeah, I can see your points--and Todd's too. What I really mean is that I would caution against daily use of coffee. Also, unlike ginseng, coffee is addictive. Also, I would caution against anyone taking *ginseng* everyday too unless it was prescribed by a practitioner---in which case it would probably be in conjunction with other herbs to balance the stagnation and heat that can be created with daily use. I've read plenty of proof both in support and against coffee, so who to believe? I use my common sense---daily use of a drug is rarely desirable. Laura , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > , " wsheir " <wsheir> > wrote: > > > > , " heylaurag " > > <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without > > ginseng. > > > > I would not be so quick to malign coffee. > > It is an herb and can be used judiciously. I would suggest,as a > > start, reading Subhuti's article at > > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm > > > > Warren S. > > > Coffee was initially used by monks to maintain mental alertness for > prolonged meditation. Despite the fact that it was highly regarded > in the culture of its origin, coffee has been subjected to the > prejudice and contempt of individuals in other cultures up to the > present day. Yet the question remains: Is there any evidence that > the moderate use of coffee poses health risks to otherwise healthy > individuals? > > Although the abuse of coffee certainly poses health risks, the > moderate use of coffee is not, to my awareness, convincingly linked > to any ill effects on health. In fact, coffee has been shown to > have protective effects against Parkinson's. > > Coffee may not be a positive influence on the lives of some > individuals, but in many cultures coffee plays an important role in > society up to the present day. For example, the French often take a > break from their day to enjoy coffee with friends over a good > conversation. Taking a break away from stress and sharing > insightful communication is linked to many positive effects on > health. > > Cultural prejudice against the medicinals used in foreign lands is a > persistent trend in human history. Practitioners of medicine should > be careful to base their opinions on substantial evidence and should > be vigilant to keep an open mind and assess each medicinal herb that > they encounter without any religious or cultural interference. > Different people in different cultures use different plants in > different ways for different reasons. Blanket statements that > suggest that any single agent is inadvisable across the board has > nothing in common with the balanced perspective that marks Chinese > medical theory. All agents have potential benefits and potential > risks. Coffee certainly has its share of both. So does ginseng. > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 > > Coffee was initially used by monks to maintain mental alertness for > prolonged meditation. I thought that was tea. I've always loved the myth about the origin of tea: Bodhi Dharma tore off his eyelids because he kept falling asleep while meditating. His eyelids fell to the ground and from them sprouted the first tea plant. Regardless, where would Capitalism be without caffeine? --Sarah Rivkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Just ask the Adrenal glands and cortisol levels, I'm sure they are not biased. heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Yeah, I can see your points--and Todd's too. What I really mean is that I would caution against daily use of coffee. Also, unlike ginseng, coffee is addictive. Also, I would caution against anyone taking *ginseng* everyday too unless it was prescribed by a practitioner---in which case it would probably be in conjunction with other herbs to balance the stagnation and heat that can be created with daily use. I've read plenty of proof both in support and against coffee, so who to believe? I use my common sense---daily use of a drug is rarely desirable. Laura , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > , " wsheir " <wsheir> > wrote: > > > > , " heylaurag " > > <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without > > ginseng. > > > > I would not be so quick to malign coffee. > > It is an herb and can be used judiciously. I would suggest,as a > > start, reading Subhuti's article at > > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm > > > > Warren S. > > > Coffee was initially used by monks to maintain mental alertness for > prolonged meditation. Despite the fact that it was highly regarded > in the culture of its origin, coffee has been subjected to the > prejudice and contempt of individuals in other cultures up to the > present day. Yet the question remains: Is there any evidence that > the moderate use of coffee poses health risks to otherwise healthy > individuals? > > Although the abuse of coffee certainly poses health risks, the > moderate use of coffee is not, to my awareness, convincingly linked > to any ill effects on health. In fact, coffee has been shown to > have protective effects against Parkinson's. > > Coffee may not be a positive influence on the lives of some > individuals, but in many cultures coffee plays an important role in > society up to the present day. For example, the French often take a > break from their day to enjoy coffee with friends over a good > conversation. Taking a break away from stress and sharing > insightful communication is linked to many positive effects on > health. > > Cultural prejudice against the medicinals used in foreign lands is a > persistent trend in human history. Practitioners of medicine should > be careful to base their opinions on substantial evidence and should > be vigilant to keep an open mind and assess each medicinal herb that > they encounter without any religious or cultural interference. > Different people in different cultures use different plants in > different ways for different reasons. Blanket statements that > suggest that any single agent is inadvisable across the board has > nothing in common with the balanced perspective that marks Chinese > medical theory. All agents have potential benefits and potential > risks. Coffee certainly has its share of both. So does ginseng. > > Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 There are sociopolitical concerns re: coffee. I have read that most commercial coffee is grown with a great deal of pesticide use, clearing large land tracts to grow crops, etc. Then there is the issue of fair trade which is still a minimum share of the market, so many of the workers on coffee plantations are kept in poverty. Sheila - I've read plenty of proof both in support and against coffee, so who to believe? I use my common sense---daily use of a drug is rarely desirable. Laura , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > , " wsheir " <wsheir> > wrote: > > > > , " heylaurag " > > <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without > > ginseng. > > > > I would not be so quick to malign coffee. > > It is an herb and can be used judiciously. I would suggest,as a > > start, reading Subhuti's article at > > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coffee.htm > > > > Warren S. > > > Coffee was initially used by monks to maintain mental alertness for > prolonged meditation. Despite the fact that it was highly regarded > in the culture of its origin, coffee has been subjected to the > prejudice and contempt of individuals in other cultures up to the > present day. Yet the question remains: Is there any evidence that > the moderate use of coffee poses health risks to otherwise healthy > individuals? > > Although the abuse of coffee certainly poses health risks, the > moderate use of coffee is not, to my awareness, convincingly linked > to any ill effects on health. In fact, coffee has been shown to > have protective effects against Parkinson's. > > Coffee may not be a positive influence on the lives of some > individuals, but in many cultures coffee plays an important role in > society up to the present day. For example, the French often take a > break from their day to enjoy coffee with friends over a good > conversation. Taking a break away from stress and sharing > insightful communication is linked to many positive effects on > health. > > Cultural prejudice against the medicinals used in foreign lands is a > persistent trend in human history. Practitioners of medicine should > be careful to base their opinions on substantial evidence and should > be vigilant to keep an open mind and assess each medicinal herb that > they encounter without any religious or cultural interference. > Different people in different cultures use different plants in > different ways for different reasons. Blanket statements that > suggest that any single agent is inadvisable across the board has > nothing in common with the balanced perspective that marks Chinese > medical theory. All agents have potential benefits and potential > risks. Coffee certainly has its share of both. So does ginseng. > > Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 In a message dated 12/19/2004 8:24:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, she-rahk writes: There are sociopolitical concerns re: coffee. I have read that most commercial coffee is grown with a great deal of pesticide use, clearing large land tracts to grow crops, etc. Then there is the issue of fair trade which is still a minimum share of the market, so many of the workers on coffee plantations are kept in poverty. Sheila Newmans Own organic free trade coffee is pretty good and available at our local grocery stores. Yummy,,,,,, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Caution is just a caution... For some coffee is good for some bad, period... All herbs have cautions, just as coffee should... -Jason > > Are Thoresen [arethore] > Sunday, December 19, 2004 5:04 PM > > SV: Re: ginseng and coffee > > > > Why caution against coffee? > One cup a day seem to stimulate several things, also the immunesystem. > > Are > > > Are Simeon Thoresen > arethore <arethore > http://home.online.no/~arethore/ > > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: heylaurag [heylaurag] > Sendt: 18. desember 2004 17:25 > Til: > Emne: Re: ginseng and coffee > > > > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without ginseng. > > > , " smilinglotus " > <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > > I noticed that the new Bensky MM advises against the use of ginseng > > with coffee. It doesn't give any details, presumably it is based on > > the fact that some people find ginseng to be stimulating, so some > > people could develop insomnia from the combination of ginseng with a > > stimulant. However, I haven't yet seen this caution so far in > > Chinese books, nor have I seen it reported from WM. Since so much > > has been written on ginseng, I might just not be looking in the > > right places. If anyone can steer me to the proper place to find > > the info, I'd appreciate it. > > > > A pubmed search reveals known interactions between ginseng combined > > with warfarin, alcohol, and phenelzine (caution is extended to all > > MAOIs with ginseng). Specifically, pubmed searches show that > > ginseng lowers blood concentrations of alcohol and warfarin, and can > > induce mania if used with phenelzine. Pubmed didn't show any studies > > that documented a risk of ginseng use with caffeine or coffee. > > > > Chinese texts indicate that ginseng should not be combined with > > daikon (Chinese radish) or with tea, in order to avoid influencing > > its supplementing power. But it would be a stretch to link tea and > > coffee based on that statement alone. Ginseng and coffee are both > > classified as warm, but a lot of things are warm; and I haven't seen > > any dietary therapy text entries on coffee that mention ginseng. > > Ginseng is not ascribed a ti shen (spirit-arousing) property, as we > > see in coffee, so the two don't have an obvious overlap from the TCM > > side. > > > > So my main question is, is there a documented risk associated with > > ginseng and coffee? Since these two substances are often used > > together, I am interested in whether this statement is based on > > evidence or if it is influenced by the fashionable demonizing of > > coffee by the alt medicine world. Since ginseng is not a stimulant > > drug itself, it would make more sense to see ephedra (which has > > sympathomimetic properties) cautioned with coffee rather than > > ginseng. If there is a true risk of interaction between ginseng and > > coffee, wouldn't the risk be even higher if combining ginseng with > > ephedra or with the amphetamine derivatives used to treat ADHD in > > children? Presumably it is safe to assume that ginseng use should be > > cautioned with yohimbe (both are perceived by the general public to > > be sexual stimulants) because yohimbe does inhibit MAO, which is a > > risk factor with ginseng. > > > > If the risk is just a subjective sensation of increased stimulation > > rather than a chemically dangerous interaction, would a habituated > > coffee user risk any ill-effects from ginseng use (assuming that > > they no longer experience marked stimulation from caffeine)? > > > > I would be really interested to known whether there is strong > > evidence in Chinese or English literature to support this statement, > > because if the two are truly not safe to use together, there are > > serious implications for patients and consumers. Opinions? > > > > Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 , " saydit " <saydit@e...> wrote: > > > > > > Coffee was initially used by monks to maintain mental alertness for > > prolonged meditation. > > I thought that was tea. Coffee, too. Different places, different religions, same motivation. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 > <smilinglotus> wrote: >> >> I noticed that the new Bensky MM advises against the use of ginseng >> with coffee. I noticed that Anheuser-Busch doesn't own the new Bensky text. Their new B to the E product is beer with added ginseng, caffeine and guarana. The future of polypharmacy? http://www.anheuser-busch.com/news/BtoE_100404.htm -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Hi Al, I saw this new " beer " on the road, as I was moving from San Diego to Sedona. I couldn't believe my eyes! A beer that has the caffeine added in, so you don't need coffee before driving home. Unbelievable! I wonder if the FDA will confiscate it??? Al Stone <alstone wrote: > <smilinglotus> wrote: >> >> I noticed that the new Bensky MM advises against the use of ginseng >> with coffee. I noticed that Anheuser-Busch doesn't own the new Bensky text. Their new B to the E product is beer with added ginseng, caffeine and guarana. The future of polypharmacy? http://www.anheuser-busch.com/news/BtoE_100404.htm -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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