Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Why don't we speak from a Chinese energetic perspective. Coffee is bitter, sweet and warm. SInce bitter is drying and draining, would I be correct in assuming that it would be contraindicated for those who are constitutionally yin deficient? When combined with ren shen which is slightly bitter, slightly warm and sweet, and is also contraindicated with yin xu with heat, obviously (assuming that they enter the same channels--ren shen enters lu & sp and coffee also seems to interact on the lu, sp & st) the deficient heat would be exascerbated, no? Yehuda , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without ginseng. why? coffee is an herb like any other herb. it is nontoxic and has a long history of safe use worldwide. almost all of the new age rhetoric about coffee is completely unsubstantiated. Coffee in fact has been shown to protect against suicidal depression and contains antioxidants. It may aggravate fibrocystic breast disease, anxiety and insomnia, but it hardly is bad for everyone. In ayurveda, it is said to actually be good for kapha or damp types due to its warm, aromatic stimulation. Caffeine is an all round good for you substance, having numerous beneficial qualities like lowering triglycerides. Do you support tea drinking? Roger Wicke has made an interesting case against tea despite its apparent health benefits. However, in either case, epidemiology or lack thereof, belies the suspicions. There is just no evidence that coffee (or tea) is bad for actual populations of people (BTW, I personally can't stand coffee, so no rationalization here). Just as there never was solid evidence linking meat eating and heart disease. We should be real careful not to promulgate known factual errors (like coffee causes disease). It just discredits us as a profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 , Yehuda L Frischman <@j...> wrote: > > Why don't we speak from a Chinese energetic perspective. Coffee is > bitter, sweet and warm. SInce bitter is drying and draining, would I be > correct in assuming that it would be contraindicated for those who are > constitutionally yin deficient? When combined with ren shen which is > slightly bitter, slightly warm and sweet, and is also contraindicated > with yin xu with heat, obviously (assuming that they enter the same > channels--ren shen enters lu & sp and coffee also seems to interact on > the lu, sp & st) the deficient heat would be exascerbated, no? > > Yehuda A quick translation of the basic TCM properties of coffee yields the following: Bitter, slightly sweet, warm. Enters the heart channel. Strengthens the heart, disinhibits urine, and arouses the spirit. Excessive consumption can lead to vacuity fire. Other books say more, but I don't have them available at the moment. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 So is this caution about coffee in conjunction with ginseng just based on someone's opinion or assumption? I have a hard time imagining that it would appear in a central textbook on herbal medicine without any evidence or substantiation. One would guess that such evidence exists, but it hasn't surfaced to the list yet. I intially began this post because my dad likes ginseng and he is a serious coffee-head. I wish I knew whether this claim is real or imagined. He doesn't suffer from vacuity heat or insomnia, so no problems there in this particular case. Ginseng reduces the effects of alcohol. It is not a stimulant, although some find it stimulating, especially the steamed (red) forms. Is there any evidence that ginseng potentiates stimulants of any sort? It seems like something that could easily be sorted out with a basic animal model, so it is crazy that we are all speculating about it based on theory. It seems like there would be some martyred rats somewhere that would have at least provided a clue by now. After all, these are plants and drugs that are used by millions of people worldwide, we should have more than speculation to go on. It makes us look bad to not be adequately informed on this stuff. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 On pubmed, I haven't been able to find any studies that show a risk of using ginseng with coffee, with caffeine, with theobromine, or with theophylline. In fact, there are many studies on pubmed that indicate that ginseng administration reduces the adverse effects of amphetamine, methamphetamine, and cocaine. Several studies link ginseng extracts or ginseng saponins with reduced hyperactivity when combined with these drugs. Is this coffee and ginseng business urban legend? Eric , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > So is this caution about coffee in conjunction with ginseng just > based on someone's opinion or assumption? I have a hard time > imagining that it would appear in a central textbook on herbal > medicine without any evidence or substantiation. One would guess > that such evidence exists, but it hasn't surfaced to the list yet. > > I intially began this post because my dad likes ginseng and he is a > serious coffee-head. I wish I knew whether this claim is real or > imagined. He doesn't suffer from vacuity heat or insomnia, so no > problems there in this particular case. > > Ginseng reduces the effects of alcohol. It is not a stimulant, > although some find it stimulating, especially the steamed (red) > forms. Is there any evidence that ginseng potentiates stimulants of > any sort? It seems like something that could easily be sorted out > with a basic animal model, so it is crazy that we are all > speculating about it based on theory. It seems like there would be > some martyred rats somewhere that would have at least provided a > clue by now. After all, these are plants and drugs that are used by > millions of people worldwide, we should have more than speculation > to go on. It makes us look bad to not be adequately informed on > this stuff. > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I may be a bit behind the conversation... I would add that as ren shen is contraindicated with yang rising (hypertension), and coffee can also contribute to rising yang, this would in my opinion explain not using these two substances together, at least in individuals who exhibit high blood pressure or yang rising pattern. Yehuda L Frischman < wrote: Why don't we speak from a Chinese energetic perspective. Coffee is bitter, sweet and warm. SInce bitter is drying and draining, would I be correct in assuming that it would be contraindicated for those who are constitutionally yin deficient? When combined with ren shen which is slightly bitter, slightly warm and sweet, and is also contraindicated with yin xu with heat, obviously (assuming that they enter the same channels--ren shen enters lu & sp and coffee also seems to interact on the lu, sp & st) the deficient heat would be exascerbated, no? Yehuda , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > I would just caution against coffee period, with or without ginseng. why? coffee is an herb like any other herb. it is nontoxic and has a long history of safe use worldwide. almost all of the new age rhetoric about coffee is completely unsubstantiated. Coffee in fact has been shown to protect against suicidal depression and contains antioxidants. It may aggravate fibrocystic breast disease, anxiety and insomnia, but it hardly is bad for everyone. In ayurveda, it is said to actually be good for kapha or damp types due to its warm, aromatic stimulation. Caffeine is an all round good for you substance, having numerous beneficial qualities like lowering triglycerides. Do you support tea drinking? Roger Wicke has made an interesting case against tea despite its apparent health benefits. However, in either case, epidemiology or lack thereof, belies the suspicions. There is just no evidence that coffee (or tea) is bad for actual populations of people (BTW, I personally can't stand coffee, so no rationalization here). Just as there never was solid evidence linking meat eating and heart disease. We should be real careful not to promulgate known factual errors (like coffee causes disease). It just discredits us as a profession. Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi Andrea Beth, Long time no hear from! Just a point of clarification. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, but by definition, doesn't liver yang rising always assume the pre-existance of kidney yin xu (as opposed to liver fire which is a condition of excess), but not necessarily the reverse? Yehuda I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I may be a bit behind the conversation... I would add that as ren shen is contraindicated with yang rising (hypertension), and coffee can also contribute to rising yang, this would in my opinion explain not using these two substances together, at least in individuals who exhibit high blood pressure or yang rising pattern. Yehuda L Frischman < wrote: Why don't we speak from a Chinese energetic perspective. Coffee is bitter, sweet and warm. SInce bitter is drying and draining, would I be correct in assuming that it would be contraindicated for those who are constitutionally yin deficient? When combined with ren shen which is slightly bitter, slightly warm and sweet, and is also contraindicated with yin xu with heat, obviously (assuming that they enter the same channels--ren shen enters lu & sp and coffee also seems to interact on the lu, sp & st) the deficient heat would be exascerbated, no? Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 > > smilinglotus [smilinglotus] > Sunday, December 19, 2004 10:30 PM > > Re: ginseng & coffee > > > > On pubmed, I haven't been able to find any studies that show a risk > of using ginseng with coffee, with caffeine, with theobromine, or > with theophylline. > > In fact, there are many studies on pubmed that indicate that ginseng > administration reduces the adverse effects of amphetamine, > methamphetamine, and cocaine. Several studies link ginseng extracts > or ginseng saponins with reduced hyperactivity when combined with > these drugs. [Jason] I think the real question is have you done an extensive search in Chinese yet i.e. google? I would be surprised if nothing came up... I personally rarely rely on *just* English sources... As we know, English literature is only the tip of the iceberg... -Jason > > Is this coffee and ginseng business urban legend? > > Eric > > , " smilinglotus " > <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > > So is this caution about coffee in conjunction with ginseng just > > based on someone's opinion or assumption? I have a hard time > > imagining that it would appear in a central textbook on herbal > > medicine without any evidence or substantiation. One would guess > > that such evidence exists, but it hasn't surfaced to the list yet. > > > > I intially began this post because my dad likes ginseng and he is > a > > serious coffee-head. I wish I knew whether this claim is real or > > imagined. He doesn't suffer from vacuity heat or insomnia, so no > > problems there in this particular case. > > > > Ginseng reduces the effects of alcohol. It is not a stimulant, > > although some find it stimulating, especially the steamed (red) > > forms. Is there any evidence that ginseng potentiates stimulants > of > > any sort? It seems like something that could easily be sorted out > > with a basic animal model, so it is crazy that we are all > > speculating about it based on theory. It seems like there would > be > > some martyred rats somewhere that would have at least provided a > > clue by now. After all, these are plants and drugs that are used > by > > millions of people worldwide, we should have more than speculation > > to go on. It makes us look bad to not be adequately informed on > > this stuff. > > > > Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 > [Jason] > I think the real question is have you done an extensive search in Chinese > yet i.e. google? I would be surprised if nothing came up... I personally > rarely rely on *just* English sources... As we know, English literature is > only the tip of the iceberg... > > -Jason I've tried with a bit of Chinese googling, but I haven't had much luck getting good sources. I have a book on herb-drug interactions in Chinese, but I am not in Taiwan right now so I cannot read it. I also can't go to a medical library and look it up, nor can I ask a few doctors about good sources to look. This type of data would probably be in Chinese pharmaceutical literature, which I am not very familiar with at all. I was kind of hoping that someone on the list would point me to a good source to find out more about it. I have certainly not evaluated all the relevant literature in English, much less in Chinese. I am just assuming that if it was a well-established risk factor, it would be relatively easy to find, even in English. Pubmed has plenty of data on salvia and warfarin, ginseng and phenelzine, etc. I'm sure there must be some foundation for the caution, I just haven't yet looked in the right place. I have a hard time imagining that the potential of interactions between coffee and ginseng hasn't been extensively studied. But I am still clueless as to a good source for the answers. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Coffee enters , for sure, the Heart Channel, by virtue of bitter taste. More importantly....what i believe has been missing from this thread, is the milk and sugar that gets added. Personally I believe that coffee ladened with milk and sugar/honey creates significant lower burner dampness. Turiya Hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Hi Yehuda, Nice to hear from you too. I just moved to Sedona, so all my books are packed and I'm working from memory here, but here is the best of my understanding, unresearched: liver yang rising indeed has a frequent correlation with Kidney yin xu; it also can stem from liver qi depression/stagnation which can generate either wind or fire, both of which are true excess conditions. It is also true that kidney yin xu can generate fire, however, if there is insufficient water to generate wood; this is simultaneous excess and deficiency. As for hypertension, I would seek to downbear yang and simultaneously nourish yin (and address any other prevalent patterns), when yin xu is present. In this example, I would be more inclined to use Xi Yang Shen (and other yin-nourishing medicinals) than Ren Shen anyway, since Ren Shen is specifically contraindicated for hypertension. I take contraindicatons pretty seriously. Blessings, Yehuda L Frischman < wrote: Hi Andrea Beth, Long time no hear from! Just a point of clarification. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, but by definition, doesn't liver yang rising always assume the pre-existance of kidney yin xu (as opposed to liver fire which is a condition of excess), but not necessarily the reverse? Yehuda I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I may be a bit behind the conversation... I would add that as ren shen is contraindicated with yang rising (hypertension), and coffee can also contribute to rising yang, this would in my opinion explain not using these two substances together, at least in individuals who exhibit high blood pressure or yang rising pattern. Yehuda L Frischman < wrote: Why don't we speak from a Chinese energetic perspective. Coffee is bitter, sweet and warm. SInce bitter is drying and draining, would I be correct in assuming that it would be contraindicated for those who are constitutionally yin deficient? When combined with ren shen which is slightly bitter, slightly warm and sweet, and is also contraindicated with yin xu with heat, obviously (assuming that they enter the same channels--ren shen enters lu & sp and coffee also seems to interact on the lu, sp & st) the deficient heat would be exascerbated, no? Yehuda Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 , " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy@h...> wrote: > as well as the chlorine and other chemicals in the water and combine and > create something different. > > Ed kasper, LAc Santa Cruz, CA. We can speculate on the effects of chlorine in the water, or additives such as cream and sugar, but the initial question was aimed at the veracity of the claim that coffee should not be combined with ginseng. My initial question was not related to patients with hypertension, with a propensity towards dampness or yang rising, vacuity heat, etc. I just want to find out whether there is any reason that normal, healthy people should be avoiding the combination of ginseng and coffee. It is amazing that a list of 1000 professionals has been unable to discern whether a caution between ginseng and coffee that is referenced in our most basic herbal textbook is fact or fantasy. We are constantly complaining about our eroding legal privileges and the potential of WM to take over herbal healthcare, yet we are not even adequately informed on the potential interactions of the most famous herb in CM with the most widespread herbal drug in Western society. We haven't even been able to figure out whether this claim is based on the isolated experience of the author of the textbook or whether it is based on research or a consensus of experience. Think about how silly we must look to the MDs. Our most basic textbook and the basis for all our board exams in herbal medicine claims that the most well-known drug in CM is dangerous to combine with coffee. Our textbook does not provide a reference for this statement, and an entire list of licensed professionals is unable to determine whether the statement is founded on anything other than the personal experience or extrapolation of the author. We have a whole generation of students using this book and implicitly trusting whatever it says, yet as a group of licensed professionals we cannot even determine if this simple ginseng and coffee statement is grounded in reality. We have potentially thousands of new practitioners ready to advise their patients against using ginseng with coffee without even having a clue whether this caution is warranted. Everyone is scrutinizing us for not being up-to-date on herb-drug interactions, and we are still not even sure whether two of the world's most famous herbal drugs can be safely combined. We will not be looking like informed practitioners if we are making cautions to our patients that we cannot substantiate. Chen's text is the best current Materia Medica for information on pharmacology and herb-drug interactions. John & Tina Chen have not referenced any adverse effects from the combination of ginseng and coffee. No one on the CHA has offered any source that suggests that ginseng and coffee are dangerous together for healthy individuals. To the contrary, we have found multiple studies that suggest that ginseng use reduces the adverse effects of other stimulants. While it is true that we don't know much about herb-drug interactions at present, Chen & Chen's book does explain what we do and do not know, and steers the reader to references. Bensky & Clavey's text focuses on traditional information, which is not a fault in any way, although I do wonder where this leaves the state boards, which do test us on herb-drug interactions. Bensky's text says " we have chosen not to directly address the thorny issue of herb-drug interactions, as the information available at this time on the subject is often too unclear to be useful. " So why is there a caution of an herb-drug interaction that is difficult to confirm and is unreferenced as to its source? I feel that consistent translation standards should be used in basic texts so that the reader may ascertain what information is derived from primary sources and what material is based on the opinions or experiences of the author. Chen's book doesn't have a translation methodology that has the rigor that I would like to see, but it does reference the statements that it makes on herb-drug interactions. Although there are books on the exam list that are certainly simplified and have author's experiences and opinions integrated into the text and presented as fact, I have always felt that the Bensky books were reliable texts that did not have any author bias mixed into the data. I am really hoping that someone can produce some evidence that coffee and ginseng are in fact dangerous in combination, because I am reluctant to burst my bubble of trust with the text. This is the only herb textbook on all the exams in the USA. We need to be confident that the material that is presented within it is all from primary sources and is not based on isolated opinions. Eric > > > Message: 5 > Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:05:39 -0000 > " turiyahill " <turiya@j...> > Re: re:Ginseng & Coffee > > > > > Coffee enters , for sure, the Heart Channel, by virtue of > bitter taste. > > More importantly....what i believe has been missing from this > thread, is the milk and sugar that gets added. > > Personally I believe that coffee ladened with milk and > sugar/honey creates significant lower burner dampness. > > Turiya Hill , <> wrote: > > Turiyah, > > Good point about the milk and sugar. Dampness, as a form of stagnation, increases the possibility of yang to float, or rise, rather than circulate properly. Very good point, indeed. Thank you. > > > > turiyahill <turiya@j...> wrote: > > > > Coffee enters , for sure, the Heart Channel, by virtue of > bitter taste. > > More importantly....what i believe has been missing from this > thread, is the milk and sugar that gets added. > > Personally I believe that coffee ladened with milk and > sugar/honey creates significant lower burner dampness. > > Turiya Hill > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > It is amazing that a list of 1000 professionals has been unable to > discern whether a caution between ginseng and coffee that is > referenced in our most basic herbal textbook is fact or fantasy. Hi Eric and all, How about asking Bensky where this information came from? Sometimes he is on this list. Happy Holidays Everyone! Jill Likkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Z'ev, Thanks for your reflections on coffee. I agree that coffee is strong stuff, particularly when one isn't acclimated to it. I don't know about the toxicity issue, but I do know that it requires many stages of preparation. I personally get signs of vacuity heat when I have too much of it, and I easily get insomnia if I have it too late in the day. It feels to me like it is warm and dry, which is the biggest reason I could think of for it being cautioned with ginseng. I wonder whether the roasting process gives it the extra heat. The reference to coffee in the new MM is under the ginseng entry. Eric , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Eric, > Sorry I haven't responded on this issue, but there are so many areas > to think about in our field these days, not the least my own patients' > issues, that it becomes difficult to think clearly about everything > that is put in front of me. All I can share is my own experiences, > thoughts and perceptions on the issue of ginseng vs. coffee, as I don't > have the time to do the research from the scientific perspective or > Chinese literature. It doesn't sound like there is too much to draw > on, anyway. Please allow me to muse out loud, and don't take me too > seriously, please. > > My first thoughts are that coffee beans are possibly somewhat toxic > in their raw state. It is known that raw coffee beans are toxic to > cattle, and my intuition is that roasting coffee beans is not just for > the taste, but to neutralize toxic alkaloids that would be undesirable. > I'll have to research this further. It also increases the available > caffeine content. > > Also, in my clinical practice, I can always tell when a patient has > had at least one cup of coffee within a few hours of coming to my > office. Their pulse is always more rapid, more floating or flooding > than it would be without it. I've never experienced this effect with > black tea, for example, on the pulse. Coffee is powerful stuff. If it > is not the caffeine that drives the pulse, it must be the complex > interactions of coffee's constituents. Coffee is a powerful medicine. > > The best discussion of coffee I've found is in " Pharmako/Dynamics " > by Dale Pendell. He devotes an entire chapter to its history, > pharmacology, botany and sociology. Dale is a great writer on natural > drugs, the best on this topic since Andrew Weil's book " From Chocolate > to Morphine " . Interestingly, he mentions that in the Galenic herbal > literature, coffee is considered to be cold in nature. Pendell says > that coffee " mimics the effects of warmth. The body, via the pituitary > gland, responds by lowering body temperature " . This is my intuition as > well. Coffee is warm at first, but then actually cools the body as it > disinhibits damp and warms the yang. > > My rationale for this is that medicinals in the category of warming and > assisting kidney yang, such as fu zi/aconite, are always combined with > kidney yin supplementing medicinals such as shu di huang, based on the > principle of supplementing yang with yin when dealing with the kidneys. > One reason for this is that yang supplementation by itself can easily > over-stimulate the yang qi, quickly warming the body, but then can > exhaust the yang and lead to cold. By combining with yin > supplementation, it allows the warm qi to be absorbed by the kidney > more effectively. At least, this is my speculation. > > My feeling is that stimulants such as coffee warm and stimulate the > yang qi, but can lead to exhaustion of the yang qi if overindulged. > > Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine have the concept of taste and > 'post-digestive taste' of medicinals. In other words, medicinals may > change in their nature after being metabolized. Perhaps we can explain > substances such as coffee in this way. > > By the way, I was unable to find anything on the interaction of ginseng > and coffee in the new version of Clavey/Bensky's Materia Medica. Was > it in previous versions? If so, it has been deleted from the latest > one. > > > On Dec 23, 2004, at 2:12 PM, smilinglotus wrote: > > > > > It is amazing that a list of 1000 professionals has been unable to > > discern whether a caution between ginseng and coffee that is > > referenced in our most basic herbal textbook is fact or fantasy. We > > are constantly complaining about our eroding legal privileges and > > the potential of WM to take over herbal healthcare, yet we are not > > even adequately informed on the potential interactions of the most > > famous herb in CM with the most widespread herbal drug in Western > > society. We haven't even been able to figure out whether this claim > > is based on the isolated experience of the author of the textbook or > > whether it is based on research or a consensus of experience. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 > Hi Eric and all, > How about asking Bensky where this information came from? > Sometimes he is on this list. > > > Happy Holidays Everyone! > Jill Likkel I thought about just writing to Eastland to ask about the coffee thing. Mostly I just want to know because my Dad is a big fan of coffee and does have a modest amount of ginseng from time to time. If it is a problem, I'd like to tell him about it, but if I don't have good stuff to back it up then I'd feel silly trying to justify it to him. I have never know any information in the Bensky text to be wrong, so I presume that there is a good reason for the caution. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > My rationale for this is that medicinals in the category of warming and > assisting kidney yang, such as fu zi/aconite, are always combined with > kidney yin supplementing medicinals such as shu di huang, based on the > principle of supplementing yang with yin when dealing with the kidneys. > One reason for this is that yang supplementation by itself can easily > over-stimulate the yang qi, quickly warming the body, but then can > exhaust the yang and lead to cold. By combining with yin > supplementation, it allows the warm qi to be absorbed by the kidney > more effectively. At least, this is my speculation. > > My feeling is that stimulants such as coffee warm and stimulate the > yang qi, but can lead to exhaustion of the yang qi if overindulged. So maybe we should be mixing raw or cooked rehmannia in with our coffee, to protect the yin and fluids. Add chocolate in the winter, add sheng di huang in the summer. Coffee actually seems to have several things in common with chocolate. They are both tropical or semi-tropical plants that are roasted before they can be consumed, both result in a dark brown, oily, bitter, warm, dry and stimulating product. I recently tried a chocolate beverage that a friend made from an allegedly ancient Mexican recipe. It had chili, mint, and damiana in it, and was incredibly thick, bitter, and strong. It wasn't quite as stimulating as coffee, but it definitely had an effect. Apparently Monteczuma II had 50 cups a day of a bitter chocolate beverage. I bet that would get you going. Many things that we think of as being relatively mild are consumed in amazing quantities in their place of origin. Lots of Taiwanese truck drivers will chew over 50 betel nuts back-to-back, Aztec kings could put back 50 cups of chocolate drinks, and apparently in Peru some locals chew up to a half kilo of coca leaves daily. Any one of those habits would surely do a number on your teeth! The actual quantities of crude herbs that are ingested by serious coffee drinkers or chocoholics are pretty intense. I have certainly put back 60g of pure chocolate in a sitting on many occassions, even though I am not a serious chocolate consumer. There aren't all that many herbs that we would pull off the shelf and take in 60g doses! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 , " Jill A. Likkel " <jilllikkel@h...> wrote: > > Hi Eric and all, > How about asking Bensky where this information came from? > Sometimes he is on this list. > > > Happy Holidays Everyone! > Jill Likkel Yes, I am going to write to Eastland so that I can get the source. I'll let everyone know whenever I find out more. I generally think that Bensky's books are reliable, and the new book is very comprehensive. I assume that the coffee and ginseng warning was made for a good reason, I just haven't seen it mentioned before in other books that discuss interactions. I am primarily concerned with simply being sure that my Dad's coffee & ginseng combining is safe; I only feel comfortable telling him that it is a potential problem if I am sure that I can back it up. Despite whatever preferences I have in translation methodology, I've never seen any information in the Bensky book that I feel is inaccurate. I'm just trying to figure out the straight scoop on coffee and ginseng because they are widely used and we should be informed on any possible risks that may exist. I have no bias one way or the other, I just want to be sure that whatever I tell to patients can stand up to scrutiny. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Coffee is mentioned here together with " ginseng abuse syndrome " , taken from http://www.itmonline.org/arts/ginseng.htm . It's the only thing I ever read about ginseng and coffee being mentioned together. In the latter part of the 20th century, ginseng was promoted to Westerners as a health product that could improve cardiovascular functions, mental acuity, and sexual performance, prevent serious diseases (such as cancer), and help treat chronic ailments (such as diabetes). It was recommended to be taken on a daily basis much as one would use a multi-vitamin, which was the closest Western equivalent, conceptually, to ginseng at the time. In fact, a number of multi-vitamin products added a small amount of ginseng to their formulation in order to promote this very concept. The herb was eventually being consumed by millions of Americans. Unfortunately, a very small number of consumers began using the herb in unusual ways (unusual applications of a Chinese herb similarly occurred, but on a much bigger scale, with ma-huang; see: Safety issues affecting Chinese herbs: The case of ma-huang). The result of the misuses of the herb was reports of adverse effects. In 1979, a Los Angeles physician, Ron Siegel, published a clinical note in the Journal of the American Medical Association (6) about a " ginseng abuse syndrome. " In an evaluation of 133 people in the Los Angeles area who had been taking ginseng frequently (for one month to two years), it was found that 14 (10%) reported symptoms that were then depicted as being part of this syndrome (though a larger number reported one or more symptoms, falling short of the abuse syndrome). Typical symptoms were nervousness, irritability, insomnia, skin eruptions, and morning diarrhea. In fact, the study by Siegel, which was uncontrolled, had numerous flaws (7). All of the people reporting these " adverse reactions " were consuming caffeine (mainly coffee), which has these exact side effects (except skin eruptions). Those who were in the study all reported that they experienced an energizing effect of ginseng, which implies that this was the primary reason for persistent use of the herb. Further, Siegel had later admitted that several of the cases of ginseng abuse syndrome were from people who were using ginseng in an attempt to get " high " and were sometimes administering unreasonable amounts (up to 15 grams per day). In China, ginseng is reputed to calm the disturbed spirit, being a typical remedy for anxiety, irritability, and insomnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Thanks for the info, Tom. I was aware of the ginseng abuse syndrome that you describe, and I was wondering whether it was linked to the coffee thing. I am still a bit unclear on whether normal users who do not abuse these products face any risk of adverse effects. Some people are simply prone to abuse, and can abuse any drug, medicine, or food that they come into contact with. Some people abuse healthy things like exercise and sex, so it seems that true abusers can have problems with almost anything. I appreciate your feedback. Eric , " verhaeghe_tom " <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > > Coffee is mentioned here together with " ginseng abuse syndrome " , taken > from http://www.itmonline.org/arts/ginseng.htm . It's the only thing I > ever read about ginseng and coffee being mentioned together. > > In the latter part of the 20th century, ginseng was promoted to > Westerners as a health product that could improve cardiovascular > functions, mental acuity, and sexual performance, prevent serious > diseases (such as cancer), and help treat chronic ailments (such as > diabetes). It was recommended to be taken on a daily basis much as one > would use a multi-vitamin, which was the closest Western equivalent, > conceptually, to ginseng at the time. In fact, a number of > multi-vitamin products added a small amount of ginseng to their > formulation in order to promote this very concept. > > The herb was eventually being consumed by millions of Americans. > Unfortunately, a very small number of consumers began using the herb > in unusual ways (unusual applications of a Chinese herb similarly > occurred, but on a much bigger scale, with ma-huang; see: Safety > issues affecting Chinese herbs: The case of ma-huang). The result of > the misuses of the herb was reports of adverse effects. In 1979, a Los > Angeles physician, Ron Siegel, published a clinical note in the > Journal of the American Medical Association (6) about a " ginseng abuse > syndrome. " In an evaluation of 133 people in the Los Angeles area who > had been taking ginseng frequently (for one month to two years), it > was found that 14 (10%) reported symptoms that were then depicted as > being part of this syndrome (though a larger number reported one or > more symptoms, falling short of the abuse syndrome). Typical symptoms > were nervousness, irritability, insomnia, skin eruptions, and morning > diarrhea. > > In fact, the study by Siegel, which was uncontrolled, had numerous > flaws (7). All of the people reporting these " adverse reactions " were > consuming caffeine (mainly coffee), which has these exact side effects > (except skin eruptions). Those who were in the study all reported that > they experienced an energizing effect of ginseng, which implies that > this was the primary reason for persistent use of the herb. Further, > Siegel had later admitted that several of the cases of ginseng abuse > syndrome were from people who were using ginseng in an attempt to get > " high " and were sometimes administering unreasonable amounts (up to 15 > grams per day). In China, ginseng is reputed to calm the disturbed > spirit, being a typical remedy for anxiety, irritability, and insomnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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