differentiating between liver fire and liver yang rising

[Guest guest]

Dear Andrea Beth,

 

I hope that your move is an easy and fruitful one. Concerning your

statement, that Lv yang rising... " also can stem from liver qi

depression/stagnation which can generate either wind or fire, both of

which are true excess conditions. " ...what I learned is that indeed lv qi

stagnation of course can generate liver fire, but liver fire, which is

pure excess, is quite different from liver yang rising, a phenomenum

resulting from a combination of excess and deficiency. Therefore, the

differentiation is different, the basic formula is different ( " long dan

xie gan tang " -treating pure excess liver fire, as opposed to " tian ma

gou teng yin " which treats ascendant liver yang, clears heat,

extinguishes wind,[all excess], but also tonifies the liver and kidney),

and the points needled are different.

 

All the best,

 

Yehuda

 

 

Hi Yehuda,

 

Nice to hear from you too. I just moved to Sedona, so all my books are

packed and I'm working from memory here, but here is the best of my

understanding, unresearched: liver yang rising indeed has a frequent

correlation with Kidney yin xu; it also can stem from liver qi

depression/stagnation which can generate either wind or fire, both of

which are true excess conditions. It is also true that kidney yin xu can

generate fire, however, if there is insufficient water to generate wood;

this is simultaneous excess and deficiency. As for hypertension, I would

seek to downbear yang and simultaneously nourish yin (and address any

other prevalent patterns), when yin xu is present. In this example, I

would be more inclined to use Xi Yang Shen (and other yin-nourishing

medicinals) than Ren Shen anyway, since Ren Shen is specifically

contraindicated for hypertension. I take contraindicatons pretty

seriously.

 

Blessings,

 

 

Yehuda L Frischman < wrote:

 

 

Hi Andrea Beth,

 

Long time no hear from!

 

Just a point of clarification. Again, please correct me if I am wrong,

but by definition, doesn't liver yang rising always assume the

pre-existance of kidney yin xu (as opposed to liver fire which is a

condition of excess), but not necessarily the reverse?

 

Yehuda

I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I may be a bit behind the

conversation...

 

I would add that as ren shen is contraindicated with yang rising

(hypertension), and coffee can also contribute to rising yang, this would

in my opinion explain not using these two substances together, at least

in individuals who exhibit high blood pressure or yang rising pattern.

 

 

 

" When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought

before

you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging

him, judge yourself. "

 

The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

 

Yes, you are correct; however, it is rare that I see any patients that are " pure

excess " . Extreme yin xu often does create fire.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Yehuda L Frischman < wrote:

 

Dear Andrea Beth,

 

I hope that your move is an easy and fruitful one. Concerning your

statement, that Lv yang rising... " also can stem from liver qi

depression/stagnation which can generate either wind or fire, both of

which are true excess conditions. " ...what I learned is that indeed lv qi

stagnation of course can generate liver fire, but liver fire, which is

pure excess, is quite different from liver yang rising, a phenomenum

resulting from a combination of excess and deficiency. Therefore, the

differentiation is different, the basic formula is different ( " long dan

xie gan tang " -treating pure excess liver fire, as opposed to " tian ma

gou teng yin " which treats ascendant liver yang, clears heat,

extinguishes wind,[all excess], but also tonifies the liver and kidney),

and the points needled are different.

 

All the best,

 

Yehuda

 

 

Hi Yehuda,

 

Nice to hear from you too. I just moved to Sedona, so all my books are

packed and I'm working from memory here, but here is the best of my

understanding, unresearched: liver yang rising indeed has a frequent

correlation with Kidney yin xu; it also can stem from liver qi

depression/stagnation which can generate either wind or fire, both of

which are true excess conditions. It is also true that kidney yin xu can

generate fire, however, if there is insufficient water to generate wood;

this is simultaneous excess and deficiency. As for hypertension, I would

seek to downbear yang and simultaneously nourish yin (and address any

other prevalent patterns), when yin xu is present. In this example, I

would be more inclined to use Xi Yang Shen (and other yin-nourishing

medicinals) than Ren Shen anyway, since Ren Shen is specifically

contraindicated for hypertension. I take contraindicatons pretty

seriously.

 

Blessings,

 

 

Yehuda L Frischman < wrote:

 

 

Hi Andrea Beth,

 

Long time no hear from!

 

Just a point of clarification. Again, please correct me if I am wrong,

but by definition, doesn't liver yang rising always assume the

pre-existance of kidney yin xu (as opposed to liver fire which is a

condition of excess), but not necessarily the reverse?

 

Yehuda

I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I may be a bit behind the

conversation...

 

I would add that as ren shen is contraindicated with yang rising

(hypertension), and coffee can also contribute to rising yang, this would

in my opinion explain not using these two substances together, at least

in individuals who exhibit high blood pressure or yang rising pattern.

 

 

 

" When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought

before

you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging

him, judge yourself. "

 

The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.