Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 I have been struggling to understand the position of libertarians who advocate entry level docs and expanded scope of practice since these goals create barriers to practice and increased government oversight of the field. OTOH, a politician must be pragmatic. If one must contend with licensing laws, then perhaps a viable libertarian position is make sure those laws are as broad and liberal as possible. But its a slippery slope that depends on the ends justifying the means. In order to expand one's scope and thus the right to do more as one pleases in contractual relationships requires legislation. In other words, it requires more government, not less, to enact such changes. We are still left with a morass of rules detailing who can do what and when, most of which has nothing to do with public safety and enforcement of contracts. So I would say the ends does not justify the means. Libertarian rules within a cloistered elite association that also works actively to prevent nonmembers from plying the same trade without joining the " guild " are not libertarian at all. I hadn't thought of it this way till Roger mentioned it the other day, but such ideas of licensing and professional associations are downright feudal. Capitalism was supposed to overthrow feudalism. In other words, if you had property, you didn't need to join a club to play ball, the ultimate freedom, with one catch I must digress. Unfortunately, the only capitalism that can ever work is one where every one has capital to begin with. While it might sound ironically communist, the only way capitalism will ever overthrow feudalism is if each citizen is given a piece of federal land as was promised and never delivered under the federal homestead act (passed just 14 years after Marx's manifesto was first published, BTW). The first property upon which all wealth was built has always been land. And most of the land was taken by force at some point. If you were there first and had enough guns, you and your heirs had power in perpetuity unless your country was conquered or usurped in some way. So the idea that the rich worked hard for what they got is not quite true. If families didn't claim land as their own by force at some point, there would be no such gap between haves and have nots. While there certainly have been rags to riches story of note here in the US, most of the money is still " old money " . Has anyone considered that the Republican plan for an ownership society ironically has this same communist appeal as the homestead act of 1862. Instead of taking money from citizens to shore up the government red ink, the money will be made available to invest in the stock market. While this may seem a boon for the wall street crowd and major corps (which it will), it also is a way for the workers to gain control of the means of production by owning them. The workers can't spend this money as they see fit, so its not really pure libertarian. Its really a government program designed to redirect workers money (and thus power?) to the producers instead of the regulators. What could be more communist than that? I must digress further. Eventually, energy and production will be so cheap and the only commodity of any value will be information that the only sensible society will have to be this sort of communist libertarianism. If all goods can be produced virtually free by nanotechnology using unlimited free energy some day, then ownership of capital will cease to be a concept at all. And since the ownership of information will always be difficult if not impossible to police, there will eventually be very few commodities left at all. It will probably be a luxury to be served by other humans in restaurants and coffeehouses (consider already ATMs, automatic checkout, voicemail systems, do I need to go on). In such a society where everyone is trained to manipulate information, how will one's compensation be determined? It couldn't possibly be a system of " from each according to their abilities and to each according to their needs " . :-) As long as I do my job, then my nanotech replicator will remain active and I will be able to satisfy my every desire (yet I would feel no need to accumulate stuff because I can always create anything I need when I need it). Some scientists think we will see this science fiction world this century barring any deviations from progress as usual (war, alien invasion, plague, etc.). But its a long capitalist road to hoe until then. But since its inevitable, why not level the playing field with capital once and for all and then just get on with the birth of a new great society. If you still blow it after you get your " 40 acres and a mule " , then its tough luck, hombre. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 I've sort of been paying half attention to these Marxist-Communist ramblings of yours, but every once in a while something catches my eye that stands out as such baloney that I must reply. The following statement is as representative as any: Unfortunately, the only capitalism that can ever work is one where every one has capital to begin with. You've got to be kidding. Think of it this way - you can use your brain to make capital. It's America. Did Bill Gates, or Ralph Nader (you probably like him better) get where they are, because they started with 40 acres and a mule? Bart Paulding Friday, December 24, 2004 3:19 PM cha regulated libertarianism I have been struggling to understand the position of libertarians who advocate entry level docs and expanded scope of practice since these goals create barriers to practice and increased government oversight of the field. OTOH, a politician must be pragmatic. If one must contend with licensing laws, then perhaps a viable libertarian position is make sure those laws are as broad and liberal as possible. But its a slippery slope that depends on the ends justifying the means. In order to expand one's scope and thus the right to do more as one pleases in contractual relationships requires legislation. In other words, it requires more government, not less, to enact such changes. We are still left with a morass of rules detailing who can do what and when, most of which has nothing to do with public safety and enforcement of contracts. So I would say the ends does not justify the means. Libertarian rules within a cloistered elite association that also works actively to prevent nonmembers from plying the same trade without joining the " guild " are not libertarian at all. I hadn't thought of it this way till Roger mentioned it the other day, but such ideas of licensing and professional associations are downright feudal. Capitalism was supposed to overthrow feudalism. In other words, if you had property, you didn't need to join a club to play ball, the ultimate freedom, with one catch I must digress. Unfortunately, the only capitalism that can ever work is one where every one has capital to begin with. While it might sound ironically communist, the only way capitalism will ever overthrow feudalism is if each citizen is given a piece of federal land as was promised and never delivered under the federal homestead act (passed just 14 years after Marx's manifesto was first published, BTW). The first property upon which all wealth was built has always been land. And most of the land was taken by force at some point. If you were there first and had enough guns, you and your heirs had power in perpetuity unless your country was conquered or usurped in some way. So the idea that the rich worked hard for what they got is not quite true. If families didn't claim land as their own by force at some point, there would be no such gap between haves and have nots. While there certainly have been rags to riches story of note here in the US, most of the money is still " old money " . Has anyone considered that the Republican plan for an ownership society ironically has this same communist appeal as the homestead act of 1862. Instead of taking money from citizens to shore up the government red ink, the money will be made available to invest in the stock market. While this may seem a boon for the wall street crowd and major corps (which it will), it also is a way for the workers to gain control of the means of production by owning them. The workers can't spend this money as they see fit, so its not really pure libertarian. Its really a government program designed to redirect workers money (and thus power?) to the producers instead of the regulators. What could be more communist than that? I must digress further. Eventually, energy and production will be so cheap and the only commodity of any value will be information that the only sensible society will have to be this sort of communist libertarianism. If all goods can be produced virtually free by nanotechnology using unlimited free energy some day, then ownership of capital will cease to be a concept at all. And since the ownership of information will always be difficult if not impossible to police, there will eventually be very few commodities left at all. It will probably be a luxury to be served by other humans in restaurants and coffeehouses (consider already ATMs, automatic checkout, voicemail systems, do I need to go on). In such a society where everyone is trained to manipulate information, how will one's compensation be determined? It couldn't possibly be a system of " from each according to their abilities and to each according to their needs " . :-) As long as I do my job, then my nanotech replicator will remain active and I will be able to satisfy my every desire (yet I would feel no need to accumulate stuff because I can always create anything I need when I need it). Some scientists think we will see this science fiction world this century barring any deviations from progress as usual (war, alien invasion, plague, etc.). But its a long capitalist road to hoe until then. But since its inevitable, why not level the playing field with capital once and for all and then just get on with the birth of a new great society. If you still blow it after you get your " 40 acres and a mule " , then its tough luck, hombre. Chinese Herbs Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 As I see it we either move forward together or we cease to exist as there will be no intermediate. There will not be a 'enlightened society' of libertarians. For those following politics it should be most obvious that we are becoming a fascist nation. The government has chosen to align itself with big business like oil, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, etc. This world view is very limiting and has no future but continues to struggle to eliminate competition. That puts us in a difficult place between licensure and free enterprise. I would say that we are not likely to become an unlicensed practice and why would we want to be? In a fair and just world I think things would be better and this might play out well but this is not that time. If we loose licensure and continue with reduced scope of practice we run the risk of being eliminated by legislation. In many states, it is illegal to practice acupuncture without a valid license. People these political posts only seek to divide us when in actuality we need to move forward together with a course of action that will ensure our survival. We could better use our time and talents to be more constructive. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > < > >cha > regulated libertarianism >Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:23:01 -0800 > >I have been struggling to understand the position of libertarians who >advocate entry level docs and expanded scope of practice since these >goals create barriers to practice and increased government oversight of >the field. OTOH, a politician must be pragmatic. If one must contend >with licensing laws, then perhaps a viable libertarian position is make >sure those laws are as broad and liberal as possible. But its a >slippery slope that depends on the ends justifying the means. In order >to expand one's scope and thus the right to do more as one pleases in >contractual relationships requires legislation. In other words, it >requires more government, not less, to enact such changes. We are >still left with a morass of rules detailing who can do what and when, >most of which has nothing to do with public safety and enforcement of >contracts. So I would say the ends does not justify the means. >Libertarian rules within a cloistered elite association that also works >actively to prevent nonmembers from plying the same trade without >joining the " guild " are not libertarian at all. I hadn't thought of it >this way till Roger mentioned it the other day, but such ideas of >licensing and professional associations are downright feudal. >Capitalism was supposed to overthrow feudalism. In other words, if you >had property, you didn't need to join a club to play ball, the ultimate >freedom, with one catch > >I must digress. Unfortunately, the only capitalism that can ever work >is one where every one has capital to begin with. While it might sound >ironically communist, the only way capitalism will ever overthrow >feudalism is if each citizen is given a piece of federal land as was >promised and never delivered under the federal homestead act (passed >just 14 years after Marx's manifesto was first published, BTW). The >first property upon which all wealth was built has always been land. >And most of the land was taken by force at some point. If you were >there first and had enough guns, you and your heirs had power in >perpetuity unless your country was conquered or usurped in some way. >So the idea that the rich worked hard for what they got is not quite >true. If families didn't claim land as their own by force at some >point, there would be no such gap between haves and have nots. While >there certainly have been rags to riches story of note here in the US, >most of the money is still " old money " . Has anyone considered that the >Republican plan for an ownership society ironically has this same >communist appeal as the homestead act of 1862. Instead of taking money >from citizens to shore up the government red ink, the money will be >made available to invest in the stock market. While this may seem a >boon for the wall street crowd and major corps (which it will), it also >is a way for the workers to gain control of the means of production by >owning them. The workers can't spend this money as they see fit, so >its not really pure libertarian. Its really a government program >designed to redirect workers money (and thus power?) to the producers >instead of the regulators. What could be more communist than that? > >I must digress further. Eventually, energy and production will be so >cheap and the only commodity of any value will be information that the >only sensible society will have to be this sort of communist >libertarianism. If all goods can be produced virtually free by >nanotechnology using unlimited free energy some day, then ownership of >capital will cease to be a concept at all. And since the ownership of >information will always be difficult if not impossible to police, there >will eventually be very few commodities left at all. It will probably >be a luxury to be served by other humans in restaurants and >coffeehouses (consider already ATMs, automatic checkout, voicemail >systems, do I need to go on). In such a society where everyone is >trained to manipulate information, how will one's compensation be >determined? It couldn't possibly be a system of " from each according >to their abilities and to each according to their needs " . :-) As long >as I do my job, then my nanotech replicator will remain active and I >will be able to satisfy my every desire (yet I would feel no need to >accumulate stuff because I can always create anything I need when I >need it). Some scientists think we will see this science fiction world >this century barring any deviations from progress as usual (war, alien >invasion, plague, etc.). > >But its a long capitalist road to hoe until then. But since its >inevitable, why not level the playing field with capital once and for >all and then just get on with the birth of a new great society. If you >still blow it after you get your " 40 acres and a mule " , then its tough >luck, hombre. > > > >Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 > < >regulated libertarianism > The type of mixed communist/libertarian economy that I think you are trying to describe is actually not too far from what the American founding fathers envisioned. Too many Americans are no longer familiar with their own history, and are under the illusion that our Constitution established a capitalist form of economy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Here are some quotes from my article " The Dumbing Down of American Education: Implications for Herbal Education " : http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-4.html Jefferson considered freedom against monopolies a basic right and insisted on a " no monopolies in commerce " clause to the Bill of Rights; however, this stipulation was not included after much contentious debate, presaging future battles between the capitalist-oligarchical classes and the anti-Federalist anti-monopolist factions. Thomas Hobbes (a philosopher popular among many of America's Founding Fathers) stated that corporations had the potential to be " worms on the body politic " . In 1817, James Madison wrote: Incorporated Companies, with proper limitations and guards, may in particular cases, be useful, but they are at best a necessary evil only. Monopolies and perpetuities are objects of just abhorrence. The former are unjust to the existing, the latter usurpations on the rights of future generations. Is it not strange that the Law which will not permit an individual to bequeath his property to the descendants of his own loins for more than a short and strictly defined term, should authorize an associated few, to entail perpetual and indefeasible appropriations... The American system of economy was intended to be one in which individuals were free to own property and labor for their own survival largely without interference, unless their activities interfered with the rights of others. On the other hand, corporations, banks, and other large organizations in which the wealthy pooled their assets to leverage economic power were seen from the very beginning of the Republic to be dangerous to liberty. Corporations had no " rights " . They were creatures of the state, to be established and regulated for the benefit of the people of the state. Sad that most of us have forgotten this, and do not understand how corporations usurped increasing amounts of power. The original game plan has become so distorted, that now individuals feel that the only way to protect their professional livelihoods is to act more like corporations - band together to form professional monopolies, for example. Little understood is that most of the rights established under the original Constitution and Bill of Rights are ***still intact***, notwithstanding even things like the Patriot Act - which some Constitutional scholars believe only applies to entities subject to federal jurisdiction. But you have to be persistent to undo the spider webs of contracts, agreements, licenses, and waivers of rights to which you have allowed yourself to become party, often through ignorance or inattention. According to Buckminster Fuller: " Corporations are neither physical nor metaphysical phenomena. They are socioeconomic ploys - legally enacted game-playing - agreed upon only between overwhelmingly powerful socioeconomic individuals and by them imposed upon human society and all its unwitting members. " Knowing what I now know about such matters, I would not touch an acupuncture license with a 10-foot pole. (My practice has always been predominantly Chinese herbology and environmental health.) I formally got rid of my license ahout 10 years ago, politely informing the Montana acupuncture board that I would no longer be practicing acupuncture, and returning my license certificate to be cancelled. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 I would say that we have a fascist society today much like that of 1930's Germany. What does this have to do with OM? your slipping. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > < > >cha > Fwd: regulated libertarianism >Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:18:43 -0800 > > > > > > > sort of communist libertarianism. > > >I should say marxist capitalism. both socialism and communism are >marked by government ownership of the means of production. Communism >is authoritarian is and socialism is slightly democratic in the way >this ownership is handled, but its till government ownership. Marx >never advocated that and would have no doubt seen the risk. He >advocated ownership by the citizens. This was part of the debate >between Trotsky and Lenin. Long forgotten and mostly unknown is the >fact early American marxists like John Reed and Emma Goldman were also >anarchists. Arguably Marx was more for anarchy than much of a >government. He knew power corrupted. While anarchy has gotten a bad >name due largely to propaganda from every world government, it is >basically synonymous with libertarianism (the freedom to do without >government intervention). these early 20th century anarchists were >also pacifists and the association of anarchy with violence is a scam. >Just a reminder to today's right wing libertarians that the seeds of >their philosophy were once nurtured more by true marxists than >republicans. A century of communist demonization has made marx more >anathema in the heartland than even evolution. Interesting how things >become full circle, but those who strongly advocate an ownership >society sound as much like Marx as they do like Adam Smith. > > > >Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 , wrote: > > > > > > sort of communist libertarianism. > > > I should say marxist capitalism. ummm. I meant to write marxist libertarianism. Slip of the mind, then slip of the pen. what's next. everything else was as I thought and wrote it. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 , wrote: road to hoe that must actually be " row to hoe " , like a row in a garden. duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 , " GBP " <obice@s...> wrote: > > I've sort of been paying half attention to these Marxist-Communist ramblings > of yours, but every once in a while something catches my eye that stands out > as such baloney that I must reply. The following statement is as > representative as any: > > > > Unfortunately, the only capitalism that can ever work is one where every one > has capital to begin with. > > > > You've got to be kidding. Think of it this way - you can use your brain to > make capital. It's America. Did Bill Gates, or Ralph Nader (you probably > like him better) get where they are, because they started with 40 acres and > a mule? > > > > Bart Paulding > > Bart, I too have only been skimming the libertarianism/marxism/capitalism discussions. But I must call you on your reference to Bill Gates. Bill grew up in a privileged and wealthy family and attended some very exclusive private schools. I'm sure he is extremely intelligent but $ and connections are still 40 acres and the mule of the wealthy. Ralph was from a more modest background but managed to make it into Harvard Law school. Hence in no small way, he did have the capital to start with. What this has to do with Chinese herbs I have no idea since I lost the thread a long while ago. Cheers, Jill Likkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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