Guest guest Posted December 29, 2004 Report Share Posted December 29, 2004 Hi All, I was wondering if anyone has encountered a situation like this: I have a patient who I was giving Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan to with tha addition of E Zhu and San Leng. She was doing just fine on the formula for about 3 weeks, with the holidays coming she was showing some more signs of constraint so I added Chai Hu and Dang Gui to the formula. After just a couple of days on the new formula she developed painful diarhea and cramping in the stomach. I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. We also waited a week before trying the herbs again. She immediately had the same reaction when taking the herbs; cramping in the stomach and intestines with diarhea. Is there something obvious that I am missing? Looking forward to hearing back! Cheers, Michael O'Brien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2004 Report Share Posted December 29, 2004 , " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien@g...> wrote: > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post the case for more precise help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2004 Report Share Posted December 29, 2004 I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils that can and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used rapidly or else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, think of it as a kind food toxin reaction? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " < > > > Re: Herbal Reaction >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:08:59 -0000 > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " ><mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, >changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu >and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > >e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the >digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. >However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what >patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. >In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, >but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid >patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu >ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the >spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. >Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is >bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a >modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no >bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is >bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with >decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These >are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post >the case for more precise help. > >Todd > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2004 Report Share Posted December 29, 2004 Actually , I should have stated, I am using KPC 5:1 concentrated powders. The Tao Ren is new. I will outline the case later, too tired right now. Yes, it is a fibroid, though the main complaint is a swollen lower left leg/ankle area. Good night, Michael O'Brien - mike Bowser Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37 PM RE: Re: Herbal Reaction I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils that can and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used rapidly or else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, think of it as a kind food toxin reaction? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " < > > > Re: Herbal Reaction >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:08:59 -0000 > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " ><mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, >changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu >and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > >e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the >digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. >However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what >patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. >In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, >but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid >patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu >ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the >spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. >Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is >bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a >modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no >bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is >bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with >decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These >are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post >the case for more precise help. > >Todd > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils that can > and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used rapidly or > else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, think of it > as a kind food toxin reaction? Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac I agree the rancidity of tao ren is a concern. It can certainly cause diarrhea even when fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Let me re-state my confusion. She was taking Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan with Tao Ren in it for 3 weeks without a problem. I then added Dang Gui and Chai Hu and she got the diarrhea. I then took out the Dang Gui, Chai Hu and to be safe I took out the Tao Ren also. She waited a almost a week before she had the confidence to try the herbs again, within a short time after taking them she again had pain and diarrhea. She waited a couple of days, tried again with the same reaction. No Tao Ren or Dang Gui in this formula. Michael - Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:11 AM Re: Herbal Reaction , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils that can > and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used rapidly or > else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, think of it > as a kind food toxin reaction? Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac I agree the rancidity of tao ren is a concern. It can certainly cause diarrhea even when fresh. Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Hi Here it is: 54 yr old woman came in first visit Oct. 25th MC: swollen foot and leg, left leg only - started in May and got really bad in August Her M.D. can't find any reason for the swelling and suspects that is a complication due to a fibroid, slightly larger than fist size. The swelling is mostly around the ankle but can work its way up to the knee when bad. The swelling is not pitted. There is pain, especially when walking and it is affected by her cycle. At 54 she is in peri-menopause, cycle length varies from 22 to 35 days. Her periods are about 7 days, start heavy, little thick, some clotting and dark blood first couple of days, then light still with some minor clots thru day 7. Some minor discomfort before the period, and into the first day. Feels better with heat. Tongue: pale - dusky purple, slight dusky coat, tends to be little thicker in center Pulse: thin, weak deep in guan and chi position DX: Xue stagnation in LW with cold and damp Formula used: Gui Zhi Fu LIng Wan w/E Zhu and San Leng added 2nd visit 11/3 showing improvement - not limping anymore, still swollen foot 3rd visit 11/10 day 3 of period dark red xue, little bit thick and minor clots. BM ok, less pain and discomfort in foot, swelling going down some 4th visit 11/16 swelling unchanged, little bit of discomfort 5th visit 11/24 improving again, less swelling, pain comes and goes - patient comments about getting into the holidays and not liking this time of year, she has a rigid livery personality - added Dang Gui, Chai Hu and Yi Yi Ren to the formula - hope fully address emotions while still focusing on fibriod, move qi/xue yi yi ren because sign of damp on tongue coat 6th visit 11/30 emotionally states much better than expected this time of year very happy about that. However, getting crampy feeling in lower abd and had loose stool this morning 7th visit 12/10 had glimpses of leg swelling completely gone, but still comes and goes, emotionally doing much better than expected, however having trouble taking herbs is noticing definite correlation between herbs and painful cramping and diarrhea. - Changed formula by removing Dang Gui, Chai Hu, Yi Yi Ren, Tao Ren, E Zhu and San Leng - went very conservative to original Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan less Tao Ren. 8th visit 12/17 still good days and not so good days, however overall much better than when first came in. Actually did not take herbs this week 9th visit 12/28 very happy with how she is doing emotionally - had nice holiday and felt good about it, this was unexpected benefit from treatment. swelling still up and down, tried herbs on 2 more occasions and both times had painful cramping and diarrhea shortly after?? Looking forward to hear your comments. Cheers, Michael - Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:08 PM Re: Herbal Reaction , " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien@g...> wrote: > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post the case for more precise help. Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Are you familiar with Kiiko Matsumoto's diagnosis and treatment for blood stagnation? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:16:13 -0500 > > >Actually , I should have stated, I am using KPC 5:1 concentrated powders. >The Tao Ren is new. > > I will outline the case later, too tired right now. Yes, it is a >fibroid, though the main complaint is a swollen lower left leg/ankle area. > >Good night, >Michael O'Brien > - > mike Bowser > > Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37 PM > RE: Re: Herbal Reaction > > > I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils that >can > and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used rapidly >or > else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, think of >it > as a kind food toxin reaction? Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " " < > > > > > > Re: Herbal Reaction > >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:08:59 -0000 > > > > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " > ><mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, > >changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu > >and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > > > >e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the > >digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. > >However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what > >patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. > >In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, > >but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid > >patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu > >ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the > >spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. > >Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is > >bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a > >modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no > >bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is > >bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with > >decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These > >are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post > >the case for more precise help. > > > >Todd > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 This is one medicinal that we should be able to develop local supplies of. After all, tao ren is peach pits. We just need to find the variety and contact more local growers. On Dec 30, 2004, at 12:11 AM, wrote: > > I agree the rancidity of tao ren is a concern. It can certainly > cause diarrhea even when > fresh. > > Todd > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Hi Mike, No, I am not. Can you share it, or is it too much info? - mike Bowser Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:29 AM Re: Re: Herbal Reaction Are you familiar with Kiiko Matsumoto's diagnosis and treatment for blood stagnation? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:16:13 -0500 > > >Actually , I should have stated, I am using KPC 5:1 concentrated powders. >The Tao Ren is new. > > I will outline the case later, too tired right now. Yes, it is a >fibroid, though the main complaint is a swollen lower left leg/ankle area. > >Good night, >Michael O'Brien > - > mike Bowser > > Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37 PM > RE: Re: Herbal Reaction > > > I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils that >can > and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used rapidly >or > else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, think of >it > as a kind food toxin reaction? Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " " < > > > > > > Re: Herbal Reaction > >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:08:59 -0000 > > > > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " > ><mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, > >changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu > >and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > > > >e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the > >digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. > >However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what > >patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. > >In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, > >but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid > >patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu > >ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the > >spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. > >Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is > >bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a > >modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no > >bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is > >bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with > >decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These > >are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post > >the case for more precise help. > > > >Todd > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 One issue with peach pits is the B-17 (laetril) they have in them. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction >Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:59:21 -0800 > >This is one medicinal that we should be able to develop local supplies >of. After all, tao ren is peach pits. We just need to find the >variety and contact more local growers. > > >On Dec 30, 2004, at 12:11 AM, wrote: > > > > > I agree the rancidity of tao ren is a concern. It can certainly > > cause diarrhea even when > > fresh. > > > > Todd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Fibroid is one possibility. Where does she live? Is it possible she might have had a reaction to a bite of some kind or an allergy? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction >Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:22:06 -0500 > > >Hi > >Here it is: > >54 yr old woman came in first visit Oct. 25th >MC: swollen foot and leg, left leg only - started in May and got really bad >in August >Her M.D. can't find any reason for the swelling and suspects that is a >complication due to a fibroid, slightly larger than fist size. The swelling >is mostly around the ankle but can work its way up to the knee when bad. >The swelling is not pitted. There is pain, especially when walking and it >is affected by her cycle. At 54 she is in peri-menopause, cycle length >varies from 22 to 35 days. Her periods are about 7 days, start heavy, >little thick, some clotting and dark blood first couple of days, then light >still with some minor clots thru day 7. Some minor discomfort before the >period, and into the first day. Feels better with heat. >Tongue: pale - dusky purple, slight dusky coat, tends to be little thicker >in center >Pulse: thin, weak deep in guan and chi position >DX: Xue stagnation in LW with cold and damp >Formula used: >Gui Zhi Fu LIng Wan w/E Zhu and San Leng added >2nd visit 11/3 showing improvement - not limping anymore, still swollen >foot >3rd visit 11/10 day 3 of period dark red xue, little bit thick and minor >clots. BM ok, less pain and discomfort in foot, swelling going down some >4th visit 11/16 swelling unchanged, little bit of discomfort >5th visit 11/24 improving again, less swelling, pain comes and goes - >patient comments about getting into the holidays and not liking this time >of year, she has a rigid livery personality - added Dang Gui, Chai Hu and >Yi Yi Ren to the formula - hope fully address emotions while still focusing >on fibriod, move qi/xue yi yi ren because sign of damp on tongue coat >6th visit 11/30 emotionally states much better than expected this time of >year very happy about that. However, getting crampy feeling in lower abd >and had loose stool this morning >7th visit 12/10 had glimpses of leg swelling completely gone, but still >comes and goes, emotionally doing much better than expected, however having >trouble taking herbs is noticing definite correlation between herbs and >painful cramping and diarrhea. - Changed formula by removing Dang Gui, Chai >Hu, Yi Yi Ren, Tao Ren, E Zhu and San Leng - went very conservative to >original Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan less Tao Ren. >8th visit 12/17 still good days and not so good days, however overall much >better than when first came in. Actually did not take herbs this week >9th visit 12/28 very happy with how she is doing emotionally - had nice >holiday and felt good about it, this was unexpected benefit from treatment. >swelling still up and down, tried herbs on 2 more occasions and both times >had painful cramping and diarrhea shortly after?? > >Looking forward to hear your comments. > >Cheers, >Michael > - > > > Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:08 PM > Re: Herbal Reaction > > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " > <mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, > changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E Zhu > and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > > e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on the > digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. > However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what > patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. > In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, > but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my fibroid > patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi fu > ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If the > spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your additions. > Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there is > bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then a > modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no > bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is > bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with > decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. These > are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should post > the case for more precise help. > > Todd > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 In her latest book on " Clinical Strategies " she talks about pressure pain in the lower left abdominal quadrant. This is then confirmed and treated by finding the exact location and direction of Liver 4 and lung 5 (both on left side) that lessen the original pressure pain. This should also be compared with same area on right side (reflex for immunity/spleen/lung). Treatment is for most painful reflex area first then second and so on. Hope this helps. Her book can be ordered from her website and is fantastic. I can hardly wait for the second and third vol. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction >Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:27:35 -0500 > > >Hi Mike, > >No, I am not. Can you share it, or is it too much info? > > - > mike Bowser > > Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:29 AM > Re: Re: Herbal Reaction > > > Are you familiar with Kiiko Matsumoto's diagnosis and treatment for >blood > stagnation? > Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > > > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction > >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:16:13 -0500 > > > > > >Actually , I should have stated, I am using KPC 5:1 concentrated >powders. > >The Tao Ren is new. > > > > I will outline the case later, too tired right now. Yes, it is a > >fibroid, though the main complaint is a swollen lower left leg/ankle >area. > > > >Good night, > >Michael O'Brien > > - > > mike Bowser > > > > Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37 PM > > RE: Re: Herbal Reaction > > > > > > I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils >that > >can > > and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used >rapidly > >or > > else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, >think of > >it > > as a kind food toxin reaction? Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " " < > > > > > > > > > Re: Herbal Reaction > > >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:08:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " > > ><mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > > > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, > > >changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E >Zhu > > >and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > > > > > >e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on >the > > >digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. > > >However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what > > >patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. > > >In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, > > >but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my >fibroid > > >patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi >fu > > >ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If >the > > >spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your >additions. > > >Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there >is > > >bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then >a > > >modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no > > >bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is > > >bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with > > >decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. >These > > >are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should >post > > >the case for more precise help. > > > > > >Todd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >including > >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Thanks!! - mike Bowser Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:17 PM Re: Re: Herbal Reaction In her latest book on " Clinical Strategies " she talks about pressure pain in the lower left abdominal quadrant. This is then confirmed and treated by finding the exact location and direction of Liver 4 and lung 5 (both on left side) that lessen the original pressure pain. This should also be compared with same area on right side (reflex for immunity/spleen/lung). Treatment is for most painful reflex area first then second and so on. Hope this helps. Her book can be ordered from her website and is fantastic. I can hardly wait for the second and third vol. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction >Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:27:35 -0500 > > >Hi Mike, > >No, I am not. Can you share it, or is it too much info? > > - > mike Bowser > > Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:29 AM > Re: Re: Herbal Reaction > > > Are you familiar with Kiiko Matsumoto's diagnosis and treatment for >blood > stagnation? > Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " Nashua Acupuncture " <mobrien > > > > > >Re: Re: Herbal Reaction > >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:16:13 -0500 > > > > > >Actually , I should have stated, I am using KPC 5:1 concentrated >powders. > >The Tao Ren is new. > > > > I will outline the case later, too tired right now. Yes, it is a > >fibroid, though the main complaint is a swollen lower left leg/ankle >area. > > > >Good night, > >Michael O'Brien > > - > > mike Bowser > > > > Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37 PM > > RE: Re: Herbal Reaction > > > > > > I am curious as to the freshness of the tao ren. Since it has oils >that > >can > > and do go rancid quickly it must be refrigerated often and used >rapidly > >or > > else. Why have we not considered this as a possible reaction, >think of > >it > > as a kind food toxin reaction? Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " " < > > > > > > > > > Re: Herbal Reaction > > >Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:08:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > , " Nashua Acupuncture " > > ><mobrien@g...> wrote: > > > > > > > I suspected it was the Dang Gui and decided to be conservitive, > > >changing the formula back to the original and removing Tao Ren, E >Zhu > > >and San Leng thinking it would give her digestive system a break. > > > > > >e zhu and san leng move qi and food, so they should not be hard on >the > > >digestion, per se. Dang gui and tao ren were more likely culprits. > > >However, you did not tell us what disease this patient had or what > > >patterns you dx. I am assuming uterine fibroids with blood stasis. > > >In my experience, mu dan pi can be a problem for the spleen. Also, > > >but still guessing in advance of more case details, most of my >fibroid > > >patients are spleen xu and also have bleeding disorders. Gui zhi >fu > > >ling wan does not address this presentation adequately, IMO. If >the > > >spleen is weak, then the rx was quite dispersing with your >additions. > > >Even balanced with mu dan pi, I don't like using gui zhi when there >is > > >bleeding due to heat as one component likely. If I am right, then >a > > >modified bu zhong yi qi tang may be the way to go. If there is no > > >bleeding, add san leng, e zhu, fu ling and mu xiang. If there is > > >bleeding, use instead pu huang, san qi (powedered and mixed with > > >decotion), chi shao and mu xiang. If dampheat, add huang bai. >These > > >are just ideas. Additional changes may be necessary. You should >post > > >the case for more precise help. > > > > > >Todd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >including > >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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