so what is TCM's role

December 30, 2004

I have changed my mind about what type of research we should be doing

in TCM. Why do research on tcm tx of chronic organic illness when

1. many such diseases may be cured by advances in WM before the CM

research on evena handful is completed

2. CM is really not effective at treating such illnesses when used by

itself

Its a dirty little secret of TCM. But it wasn't used much for chronic

illness in ancient times? Why, well only a small % of the population

became elderly and the medicine of the literati was not available to

the masses. Plus the main issues of daily life were, as they always

are, trauma, infection and acute sx of various types. So its only in

recent decades that there has been a mass effort to apply the theories

of CM to the tx of chronic organic illness.

These are my opinions based upon 18 years of reading research and case

studies translated from chinese (first from ITM) plus 15 years

clinical experience. My clinical experience ranged from solo practice

treating ONLY patients with chronic organic illness to working inlarge

teaching clinics. The teaching clinics have exposed me to master

herbalists from all over the world and I have gotten to see how

patients do in various scenarios other than my isolated private

practice. I have also repeatedly called for and failed to receive

documentation of even a single case of organic chronic illness in the

US that was " cured " by CM. Feel free to dismiss this as my own lack

of competence or failure of perception.

I would say that CM has been successful for many functional illnesses

in my observations, but unsuccessful for most organic complaints

except as palliation, supportive or adjunct therapy. There is

certainly no evidence that CM alone can cure ANY of the major killers

(cancer, heart disease, liver disease, diabetes). Cancer survival

rates may be improved by combination drug herb therapy, but patients

are not cured and most will still die of cancer. Autoimmunity goes

into remission but recurs when herbs are withdrawn. Hep C sx can be

relieved but disease still progresses. Blood sugar can be decreased

and complications prevented, but the DM remains. Same with Hi BP.

However, in each of these cases, CM alone is not even that effective.

I could go on. Research in Flaws DM books is mostly about combined

east west therapy or tx of sx or sequelae. DM, like heart disease, is

prevented by diet and exercise. Its not rocket science. Once the

damage is done, CM only plays an adjunctive role, albeit an important

one. I know you have all heard claims to the contrary, but think

carefully, have you seen the evidence? Did you actually do the long

term followup. If so, why don't you share your data?

I have found CM to be most effective at the noniatrogenic control of

symptoms in various illnesses, mostly chronic nonlife threatening

functional illnesses like osteoarthritis, meniere's, eczema,

bronchitis, PMS. But patients will not be cured. They will typically

be dependent on herbs on and off for the rest of their lives. The

point I am trying to make is that CM is anything but a complete system

of internal medicine. It is a safe way to improve health and relieve

symptoms, but that's about all we can say for sure based upon both

research and history. In concert with western medicine, it can be a

powerful complement. Because of this, I think research should

actually be directed towards quality of life complaints like pain,

diarrhea, constipation, pms, etc. Western med causes a lot of harm in

their treatment of such complaints (consider the cox-2 scandals) and

may actually hasten more serious illnesses. This is a quasipreventive

level of intervention where our herbal skills and acupuncture can go a

long way.

I think we have an opening here since people are scared of drugs. In

addition, we will avoid the inevitable disappointment of research on

hepatitis or cancer. We should collaborate on integrative projects

for such illnesses, but I see little further purpose in trying to

prove we can cure them with TCM when we can't. Unfortunately, I doubt

there is much money out there to study constipation. I know Misha is

doing good work with Hep C in SF and Mark Reese with HIV in Chicago,

but I don't think either of them are claiming cures and both are

staunch integrationists who advocate the triple cocktail for AIDS, for

example. I'll be interested to see how the OCOM endometriosis study

turns out. I was once quite excited about this, but now I have

serious doubts that it will show the desired results. I hope I am

wrong about all of this, but prediction is part of strategizing.

Prediction relies on having as much evidence as possible of past

trends and future avenues. My shift has largely been motivated by

vast amounts of information I have recently discovered which had not

figured in to prior equations, so to speak. Perhaps we should just

focus on making our patients happy, not deceive those who are

extremely ill and not bother with research at all. I think that

position has been advocated here before, but not by me till today.

December 30, 2004

Well Todd welcome to the pained, but it is better to open one´s eyes

than dream. Integrated med is were it is

Alon

, " .geo "

wrote:

>

> I have changed my mind about what type of research we should be

doing

> in TCM. Why do research on tcm tx of chronic organic illness when

>

> 1. many such diseases may be cured by advances in WM before the CM

> research on evena handful is completed

>

> 2. CM is really not effective at treating such illnesses when used

by

> itself

>

> Its a dirty little secret of TCM. But it wasn't used much for

chronic

> illness in ancient times? Why, well only a small % of the

population

> became elderly and the medicine of the literati was not available to

> the masses. Plus the main issues of daily life were, as they always

> are, trauma, infection and acute sx of various types. So its only

in

> recent decades that there has been a mass effort to apply the

theories

> of CM to the tx of chronic organic illness.

>

> These are my opinions based upon 18 years of reading research and

case

> studies translated from chinese (first from ITM) plus 15 years

> clinical experience. My clinical experience ranged from solo

practice

> treating ONLY patients with chronic organic illness to working

inlarge

> teaching clinics. The teaching clinics have exposed me to master

> herbalists from all over the world and I have gotten to see how

> patients do in various scenarios other than my isolated private

> practice. I have also repeatedly called for and failed to receive

> documentation of even a single case of organic chronic illness in

the

> US that was " cured " by CM. Feel free to dismiss this as my own lack

> of competence or failure of perception.

>

> I would say that CM has been successful for many functional

illnesses

> in my observations, but unsuccessful for most organic complaints

> except as palliation, supportive or adjunct therapy. There is

> certainly no evidence that CM alone can cure ANY of the major

killers

> (cancer, heart disease, liver disease, diabetes). Cancer survival

> rates may be improved by combination drug herb therapy, but patients

> are not cured and most will still die of cancer. Autoimmunity goes

> into remission but recurs when herbs are withdrawn. Hep C sx can be

> relieved but disease still progresses. Blood sugar can be decreased

> and complications prevented, but the DM remains. Same with Hi BP.

> However, in each of these cases, CM alone is not even that

effective.

> I could go on. Research in Flaws DM books is mostly about combined

> east west therapy or tx of sx or sequelae. DM, like heart disease,

is

> prevented by diet and exercise. Its not rocket science. Once the

> damage is done, CM only plays an adjunctive role, albeit an

important

> one. I know you have all heard claims to the contrary, but think

> carefully, have you seen the evidence? Did you actually do the long

> term followup. If so, why don't you share your data?

>

> I have found CM to be most effective at the noniatrogenic control of

> symptoms in various illnesses, mostly chronic nonlife threatening

> functional illnesses like osteoarthritis, meniere's, eczema,

> bronchitis, PMS. But patients will not be cured. They will

typically

> be dependent on herbs on and off for the rest of their lives. The

> point I am trying to make is that CM is anything but a complete

system

> of internal medicine. It is a safe way to improve health and

relieve

> symptoms, but that's about all we can say for sure based upon both

> research and history. In concert with western medicine, it can be a

> powerful complement. Because of this, I think research should

> actually be directed towards quality of life complaints like pain,

> diarrhea, constipation, pms, etc. Western med causes a lot of harm

in

> their treatment of such complaints (consider the cox-2 scandals) and

> may actually hasten more serious illnesses. This is a

quasipreventive

> level of intervention where our herbal skills and acupuncture can

go a

> long way.

>

> I think we have an opening here since people are scared of drugs.

In

> addition, we will avoid the inevitable disappointment of research on

> hepatitis or cancer. We should collaborate on integrative projects

> for such illnesses, but I see little further purpose in trying to

> prove we can cure them with TCM when we can't. Unfortunately, I

doubt

> there is much money out there to study constipation. I know Misha

is

> doing good work with Hep C in SF and Mark Reese with HIV in Chicago,

> but I don't think either of them are claiming cures and both are

> staunch integrationists who advocate the triple cocktail for AIDS,

for

> example. I'll be interested to see how the OCOM endometriosis study

> turns out. I was once quite excited about this, but now I have

> serious doubts that it will show the desired results. I hope I am

> wrong about all of this, but prediction is part of strategizing.

> Prediction relies on having as much evidence as possible of past

> trends and future avenues. My shift has largely been motivated by

> vast amounts of information I have recently discovered which had not

> figured in to prior equations, so to speak. Perhaps we should just

> focus on making our patients happy, not deceive those who are

> extremely ill and not bother with research at all. I think that

> position has been advocated here before, but not by me till today.

>

December 31, 2004

I also agree that integrative medicine is where it's at.

When we and our patients were young, we could get away with our

romantic and naive beliefs about CM. Now that we and our patients are

aging, we need to wake up. In the last three years, I have had two

surgeries, am on four prescription meds, and have had a colonoscopy,

echocardiogram, and several EKGs, including one nuclear, besides the

fact that I eat real well, exercise regularly, and take Chinese herbs

every single day. The good news is that my lifestyle and Chinese meds

have helped me avoid any side effects from Western meds and kept their

doses to the lowest possible. They have helped me recuperate from

surgery faster than most other people, at least according to my

surgeons. In fact, I feel better physically and mentally than I ever

have. I only wish that I had used Western medicine sooner. My

insistence on trying to use only CM cost me many years of dis-ease. I

can definitely say that working on our psych book with Dr. James Lake

changed my life for the better by opening my eyes to the benefits of

integrated Chinese-Western medicine.

" Before 30, we cheat disease; after 30, disease cheats us. "

Bob

December 31, 2004

Of the great many personal testimonials regarding alternative cures WM

dismisses them all as " spontaneous remission " . The data is not collected.

Now that may be true, maybe that person never really had <<cancer>> to begin

with. but the other side of that coin may also not be true " Alternative

medicine has never cured anything " . One example is [name withheld] who was

diagnosed via WM with Parkinson's Disease. She " was cured " by acupuncture

[her words]. She does not have PD today. This never happened according to

WM. http://www.pdtreatment.com/

So either thousands of people are lying, WM is in denial, or something else.

I know our patients by default fall into the category of quality of life -

not quantity of life. The American life-style, diet and dependence upon WM

is dominate. Certainly too late to dig a well with so desperate a thirst.

For a few years I treated PD and stroke patients. All elderly and in

critical condition. Impossible to formulate herbal formulas that would not

interfere - or how to determine possible drug/herbal interference. The drugs

controlled their lives or more precisely their lives were in control of the

drugs and their delicate balance. Even with willingness from MD and the

patients I had to ask myself " Do I really want to do this " . Even the

late-stage cancer patients that I treated when their MD said to do all I

could - What could/should I do.

I needed more ZEN in my practice. What could I do this moment to make my

patient better now.

In my mind the greatest contribution to health over the last century has

been made by HOSPICE.

research is good, care is greater.

Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA

Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:18:46 -0000

" alonmarcus2003 " <alonmarcus

Re: so what is TCM's role

snipped>>> Perhaps we should just focus on making our patients happy, not

deceive those who are

extremely ill and not bother with research at all.

Well Todd welcome to the pained, but it is better to open one´s eyes

than dream. Integrated med is were it is

Alon

January 1, 2005

Hi Bob,

I really appreciate this post. It is brave of you to tell your truth,

and I agree with you. I think that we are not benefitting others when

we talk as if Western medicine does not have anything to offer unless

its an emergency. There is a time and place for Western medicine,

just as there is a time and place for any medicine. My experience is

that there are good and bad things about all forms of medicine. I

have seen many examples of patients who seem to be best treated with a

combination of western and eastern medicine. I've also seen people

who are best treated with eastern medicine alone...people who were

being harmed by western medicine unnecessarily....but we shouldn't act

like that is true for everyone with every condition. I'm sure the

reverse can be true too--that some people suffer unnecessarily

searching for a cure with alternative medicine when there is already

something out there to help them. I've actually been thinking about

writing an article about this topic. I suspect you would be in a

better position to write it though!

Laura

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

> I also agree that integrative medicine is where it's at.

>

> When we and our patients were young, we could get away with our

> romantic and naive beliefs about CM. Now that we and our patients are

> aging, we need to wake up. In the last three years, I have had two

> surgeries, am on four prescription meds, and have had a colonoscopy,

> echocardiogram, and several EKGs, including one nuclear, besides the

> fact that I eat real well, exercise regularly, and take Chinese herbs

> every single day. The good news is that my lifestyle and Chinese meds

> have helped me avoid any side effects from Western meds and kept their

> doses to the lowest possible. They have helped me recuperate from

> surgery faster than most other people, at least according to my

> surgeons. In fact, I feel better physically and mentally than I ever

> have. I only wish that I had used Western medicine sooner. My

> insistence on trying to use only CM cost me many years of dis-ease. I

> can definitely say that working on our psych book with Dr. James Lake

> changed my life for the better by opening my eyes to the benefits of

> integrated Chinese-Western medicine.

>

> " Before 30, we cheat disease; after 30, disease cheats us. "

>

> Bob

January 1, 2005

" heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote:

< I think that we are not benefitting others when

we talk as if Western medicine does not have anything to offer unless

its an emergency. There is a time and place for Western medicine,

just as there is a time and place for any medicine.>

Seasonal greetings and a successful New Year 2005 to all members

By way of introduction, I practise Orthodox and Holistic

Medicine in

Malaysia. My interests include Bio-intracellular dynamics and Biophysics .

My presenting webpage is at URL :

http://lewfh.tripod.com/bioresonanthomeostasisandwellbeing/

The webpage at URL :

http://lewfh.tripod.com/introductiontonutritionalscience/ is my holistic

background.

With regards

Lew

-

" heylaurag " <heylaurag

Saturday, January 01, 2005 7:18 PM

Re: so what is TCM's role

>

> Hi Bob,

>

> I really appreciate this post. It is brave of you to tell your truth,

> and I agree with you. I think that we are not benefitting others when

> we talk as if Western medicine does not have anything to offer unless

> its an emergency. There is a time and place for Western medicine,

> just as there is a time and place for any medicine. My experience is

> that there are good and bad things about all forms of medicine. I

> have seen many examples of patients who seem to be best treated with a

> combination of western and eastern medicine. I've also seen people

> who are best treated with eastern medicine alone...people who were

> being harmed by western medicine unnecessarily....but we shouldn't act

> like that is true for everyone with every condition. I'm sure the

> reverse can be true too--that some people suffer unnecessarily

> searching for a cure with alternative medicine when there is already

> something out there to help them. I've actually been thinking about

> writing an article about this topic. I suspect you would be in a

> better position to write it though!

>

> Laura

>

> , " Bob Flaws "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> >

> > I also agree that integrative medicine is where it's at.

> >

> > When we and our patients were young, we could get away with our

> > romantic and naive beliefs about CM. Now that we and our patients are

> > aging, we need to wake up. In the last three years, I have had two

> > surgeries, am on four prescription meds, and have had a colonoscopy,

> > echocardiogram, and several EKGs, including one nuclear, besides the

> > fact that I eat real well, exercise regularly, and take Chinese herbs

> > every single day. The good news is that my lifestyle and Chinese meds

> > have helped me avoid any side effects from Western meds and kept their

> > doses to the lowest possible. They have helped me recuperate from

> > surgery faster than most other people, at least according to my

> > surgeons. In fact, I feel better physically and mentally than I ever

> > have. I only wish that I had used Western medicine sooner. My

> > insistence on trying to use only CM cost me many years of dis-ease. I

> > can definitely say that working on our psych book with Dr. James Lake

> > changed my life for the better by opening my eyes to the benefits of

> > integrated Chinese-Western medicine.

> >

> > " Before 30, we cheat disease; after 30, disease cheats us. "

> >

> > Bob

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

January 1, 2005

Yes, I also agree that integrative medicine is the way to go. However, one must

be very discriminating in what is integrated and how. One cannot simply take

conventional western medicine and TCM, stir together and simmer a bit. For

example, I am consistently disappointed in most of the TCM integrated cancer

literature that I've seen translated. The Chinese seem to be taking the attitude

that conventional TCM herbal formulas can help with the side effects of

radiation and chemo, and support the general vitality level, but herbal formulas

are not sufficient by themselves. I agree. But instead of integrating TCM

herbology with the western methods of chemo and radiation, why not integrate it

with the tremendous volume on new breakthoughs in cancer treatment that have

been pioneered by American and European naturopathic and alternative

practitioners?

A few years ago an internationally known cancer researcher participated in my

courses, and I used the opportunity to ask him about his personal opinion of

most cancer chemotherapy and radiation treatments. His opinion was that almost

all of it was " garbage " , except for certain leukemia drugs, which seem to have a

significant success rate. He would not state these things publicly, though, as

he is tied into the system, but expressed to me that he was much more interested

in the work being done by alternative doctors in Mexico (Tijuana), and the work

of Kelley, Gerson, and Burzinski. Similar opinions are common; for example, see

the Ralph Moss website. (Moss formerly worked at the Sloan Kettering Cancer

Institute for many years.)

www.ralphmoss.com

See Ralph Moss' experiences in being part of the Laetrile coverup perpetrated on

behalf of Memorial Sloan Kettering and the medical-pharmaceutical cartels:

http://www.ralphmoss.com/mossOTA.html

I've had 6 friends (one with malignant melanoma) survive cancer (all of them for

more than 15 years now) by completely avoiding chemotherapy and radiation, and

using alternative methods - typically involving combinations of strict diet,

Laetrile or apricot kernels, herbs, vegetable juices, pancreatic enzyme therapy,

glandular supplements, heavy-metal detox, ozone, and hyperthermia induction. TCM

herbal formulas alone, especially when environmental and dietary factors are

ignored, will only provide a drop in the bucket, and cannot be expected to make

a significant impact in most cases of cancer.

Conventional western medicine is very good at treament of trauma, and in

surgical techniques, but for treatment of most chronic illnesses, it is a

failure.

Although I consider myself an integrationist proponent, a major pitfall is that

TCM practitioners will lose sight of the strengths in their method in favor of

assimilating into a corrupt system merely to gain a bit of status. Rather than

integrating with status-quo western medicine, we should be embracing the people

and ideas that are at the cutting edge of alternative medicine in this country

and in Europe and Mexico: environmental health, naturopathy, nutritional

biochemistry, the work of nutritional anthropologists like Sally Fallon and Mary

Enig - these excite me much more than the Chinese TCM integrationist stuff that

seems more like propaganda for the Rockefeller medical dynasty.

The TCM system of symptom-sign pattern recognition is a tool that can be used to

evaluate all alternative health methods, not just herbs, and if we recognize

that, we will be able to discriminate between methods that work and ones that

don't, and to provide other alternative medicine pioneers with a valuable

service.

> " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

>Re: so what is TCM's role

>

>I also agree that integrative medicine is where it's at.

>

>When we and our patients were young, we could get away with our

>romantic and naive beliefs about CM. Now that we and our patients are

>aging, we need to wake up.

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

January 1, 2005

Integrative medicine is already afoot and prospering.

http://medicalacupuncture.com/acu_info/licensure.html

The question here is what role do _we_ play in it.

What is not talked about in medical acupuncture is the role of Chinese

herbs. Although I suspect many of the MA do prescribe herbs as well. There

is at least one MA in Santa Cruz (county) that does. Their field is

growing. I do not see them waiting, or standing around....

Our discussions here (CHA) should be focused on OUR role of Chinese Herbs in

health care.

Why research Chinese Herbs that are already accepted as effective?

- proof - the public buying $$$millions and just about everybody giving

herbs out - including M.D.'s. Herbal Supplements and Chinese herbs enjoy a

good reputation, it is a huge business especially compared to acupuncture.

I would say that most acupuncturists do very little herbal business

percentage-wise compared to our other allied fields of Integrative medicine.

Who speaks with authority on PC-SPEC or a Ma Huang Extract (ephedrine) ?

Why are Rentamine, Rynatuss, Tuss Tan (ephedrine) still freely available OTC

overdosing of these products produces hyperactivity (speed) and

hallucinations (cheap high)

- legal street drugs just like Ma Huang Standardized Extract was marketed.

here's a test. Take the statistics on people that would actually need these

pills and look at the actual number of units of these pills produced. The

number of pills produced far exceed what one would reasonable estimate would

be needed. Poor business practice -NOT for all those units are sold !!

and now we can not use the herb, ma huang, in our herbal prescriptions!!!

warfarin and doxigen - no herb, dietary supplement, even life-style changes

can be prescribed without the risk of serious consequences. Integrated

medicine ! In the U.S. over 100,000 deaths annually from prescribed medicine

when used as directed!! Better be integrated liability insurance or watch

the finger pointing.

The I Ching, nei jing, SW, SHL and WB et al, are about intervention when one

has strayed from the path.

Westernization and the Standard American Diet (SAD) is the reality. What

research can be done that proves this life-style is healthy and acceptable

???

I will compare the life and death of my parents. All good solid

westernization, drugs, hospitals and life-style. America was on a roll. Life

was good. My mothers life ended early because of it - my fathers extended

because of it. Yet my father before he died said he would throw it all down

the toilet and would have accepted an earlier death because of the

degradation imposed by the life-dependent drugs. Inhumane really. Both my

mothers life and death with cancer (1972) and my fathers (2002) of _natural

causes_(!!??).

IMO, prescribe herbs - based upon TCM/CM differential diagnosis (not

scientific in the western mindset) and improve the quality of life for that

person that day. And preach to the children - one child at a time. Day by

Day.

Happy New Year,

Ed Kasper LAC Santa Cruz, CA.

Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:34:21 -0000

" Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001