herbs contraindicated with coumadin

[Guest guest]

Dear Kerri,

 

I had the same question recently. Chen lists Yu Mi Xu, Da Ji, and xian

he cao as containing vit. K and reducing the anticoagulant effect of

warfarin. Hong qu increased bleeding and prothrombin time with

concomitant use. And of course, the blood invigorating and stasis

removing herbs should be used with caution as they may potentiate the

effects of drugs such as warfarin. Examples would be chuan xiong, yu

jin, dan shen, hong hua, tao ren,

yi mu cao, mao dong qing, san leng, e zhu, shui zhi, di bie chong.

 

Also, my professor, Zhang Ji tells me that the combination of Dang gui

and Bai shao yao is safe and does not potentiate the effect of warfarin.

 

 

Hope I've helped.

 

Yehuda

 

 

Does anyone have a list of herbs contraindicated for use with

Coumadin (warfarin)? I know San Qi is one of them. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I've recently written a short article on herb-herb and herb drug interactions:

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2004-3.html

Herb-herb and herb-drug interactions: modes of interaction

 

The obvious thing about Coumadin that many people forget is that it is an

inherently dangerous drug, WITH OR WITHOUT herbs! Even many foods can alter the

rate of metabolism of Coumadin. A drug like Coumadin could be ***replaced***

with something like Rx Pseudoginseng (san qi) in many medical applications, it

would be far safer.

 

Coumadin by itself, without any help from herbs, increases the risk of

uncontrollable hemorrhage in case of trauma. A medical friend told me a story of

a man who had been prescribed coumadin by his physician. Later that week, the

physician, while driving, smashed into this man while he was walking across the

street. Luckily, the man had refused to take the Coumadin, and he survived the

accident.

 

When something very safe like san qi is available, and yet the medical standard

is to prescribe coumadin - this should be challenged in court as a case of

reckless endangerment. The medical profession should know about pseudoginseng -

they used it widely during the 19th century in America. You will find old

bottles with pseudoginseng labels in museums with paraphernalia from dentists

and doctors offices.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

 

> " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy

>RE: Herbs contraindicated with Coumadin

>

>Many Herbal Remedies May Interact With Popular Blood Thinner

>webmd.com/content/article/27/1728_59275.htm

>

>Researcher Amy M. Heck, PharmD, and colleagues found that three alternative

>medicines -- coenzyme Q10, ginseng, and green tea -- have been shown to

>decrease the effectiveness of Coumadin as a blood thinner. Five other

>medicines -- vitamin E, papain, dong quai, devil's claw, and danshen -- all

>have been shown to increase the blood thinning properties of Coumadin,

>perhaps to dangerous levels... [other published articles include warnings

>on: Dandelion, Chamomile, Ginger, St. John's Wort, Goldenseal, horse

>chestnut, and Vitamin C. In my quick cursory search I did not find any

>references to Garlic, Vinegar or Oils as possibilities, which IMO, a quick

>lunch with Coumandin is not advised.]

>

>Ginseng a No-No for Patients on Coumadin

>webmd.com/content/article/90/100562.htm

> " So a substance, such as ginseng, that alters [Coumadin's] effects -- even

>slightly -- can have significant consequences. " University of Chicago

>researcher Chun-Su Yuan, MD, PhD

>

>

>The finger-is-pointing at -- any method not prescribed by an MD as being

>dangerous. Herbalist will not be able to claim ignorance due to the

>preponderance of [dis-]information " suggesting " a connection.

>

>My opinion is that it is a good practice to be suspicious. As the Physicians

>First Rule " Physician Do No Harm " .

>Can we prescribe herbs, vitamins and minerals ? Indeed even life-style

>changes do play an integral part here.

>

>

>Singularly it may be possible to test possible interactions and also to

>diligently monitor (at home, see below) possible outcomes. But Chinese

>Herbal Formulas are not just a collection of individual herbs.

>for example our friend Ma Huang. (available OTC as Rentamine, Rynatuss, Tuss

>Tan)

>ma huang + gui zhi = diaphoretic

>ma huang + shi Gao = stops sweating

>ma huang + xing ren = stops cough

>ma huang + bai zhu = diuretic

>

>At-Home Monitoring Works for People on Blood Thinners

>webmd.com/content/article/26/1728_59089.htm

>In a study published in the medical journal The Lancet, Dutch researchers

>found there was virtually no difference between patients who managed their

>own care at home and those who had it done at a clinic. In some ways, the

>patients who monitored themselves at home did better than the ones seen at a

>clinic, and most of them preferred self-treatment.

>FDA approved Monitor = The ProTime System - PT-INR Testing. The ProTime®

>Microcoagulation System for prothrombin time testing, PT-INR testing, is

>designed to safely manage Coumadin® therapy. www.hometestmed.com

>

>My question would be WHY are we treating these people?

>More than likely for the adverse side affects of their Coumadin

>prescriptions (published reports)

>Abdominal Pain with Cramps, Alopecia, Diarrhea, Leukopenia, Nausea,

>Vomiting, Acute Adrenocortical Insufficiency, Agranulocytosis, Allergic

>Dermatitis, Aphthous Stomatitis, Edema, Feet Pain, Increased Risk of

>Bleeding, Jaundice, Proteinuria, Pruritus of Skin, Renal Disease, Skin Rash,

>Throat Ulceration, Urticaria.

>NOT listed as adverse affects, but ones that appears in clinical practice

>are the TCM diagnosis of Cold, Pain and fatigue. And a general vague feeling

>that all is not well.

>

>Once we decide we may be able to help. Do we treat the root or the branch ?

>One certainty is that the At-Home monitoring system would make everyone a

>little more comfortable.

>

>

>Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist

>Acupuncture is a jab well done

>www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA.

>

>

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

[Guest guest]

Rory,

I'd like more information on what you say is happening with Dr.

Eisenberg and Harvard, especially since Ted Kaptchuk works with him

there.

 

 

On Jan 15, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

>

> It seems to me that David Eisenberg is one of these people. He

> appears to be working hard to subsume our practices into a medical

> monopoly. Having important Chinese medicinals made unavailable to us,

> our practices lose their flexibility and power, and therefore become

> more marginal. The more marginal we are, the more we are separated

> from our resources, the more the case can be made that our products

> and practices can be cherry picked and used outside a Chinese medical

> context.

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 11:41 AM -0800 1/16/05, wrote:

> I'd like more information on what you say is happening with Dr.

>Eisenberg and Harvard, especially since Ted Kaptchuk works with him

>there.

--

 

Z'ev,

 

Well, I didn't mention Harvard. My impression has developed over time

in reading his comments, seeing how his work is promoted and used,

reading his testimony to the White House Commission on CAM in 2001,

etc. Then last Thursday there was a Reuters article in the NYT where

he is quoted in the context of the Institutes of Medicine promoting

the standardization of CAM treatments. None of this absolutely proves

what I am saying, but at this point someone, (preferable DE), would

have to show the contrary for me to change my view.

 

How this reflects on Ted Kaptchuk I have no idea.

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Subhuti Dharmananda on Coumadin:

 

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/warfarin.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael Short, Lic. Ac.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Rory,

 

Reading last week's pronouncements from Dr. Eisenberg made me think

exactly the same thing. This man is NOT our ally.

 

Remember, this is also the guy who could never " feel the qi, " whether

with qi gong or acupuncture, in the Bill Moyer's special of years back.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

This man is NOT our ally.

>>>>Remember he is an allopath, i am not sure he is " against or for us " but he

definitely for the current evidence based model

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Roger, very nice article and information is very reverent in clinical

practice.

 

That was my point. Coumadin, as well as most drugs, especially those when

treating Parkinson's, that I would encounter are extremely sensitive and

dangerous. I encountered many of those on their PD medications that

literally would shave their pills. Just right and they were fine. Too much,

too little (literally meaning one grain) and they were zombies or a race

horse. And then they would ask me what kind of herbs could I offer them

????

 

In my fathers case - even with the co-operation of a very friendly and good

M.D. and where I could monitor my results, had a patient totally trusting -

and no fear of insurance or lawsuits ... I found it was not in the best

interest of my patient to do any herb intervention.

 

I ended up telling all my patients ... drugs are dangerous. Life

threatening.

I could not bear the look in their eyes.

 

I have switched my practice to martial arts and athletes.

 

Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist

 

 

 

 

 

<<<snipped>>> Coumadin by itself, without any help from herbs, increases the

risk of uncontrollable hemorrhage in case of trauma. A medical friend told

me a story of a man who had been prescribed coumadin by his physician. Later

that week, the physician, while driving, smashed into this man while he was

walking across the street. Luckily, the man had refused to take the

Coumadin, and he survived the accident.

short article on herb-herb and herb drug interactions:

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2004-3.html

Herb-herb and herb-drug interactions: modes of interaction

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org