ginseng and coffee

[Guest guest]

In the continuing investigation of ginseng and coffee:

 

So far I have not heard back from Eastland about the statement that

ginseng should not be used with coffee or other stimulants.

However, I have scoured virtually every major English text that

warns about drug interactions with ginseng, and I have found the

following:

 

Ginseng and coffee or other stimulants are not listed as a risk of

interaction in most of the texts, including the PDR of Herbal

Medicines, German Commission E monographs, Chen & Chen's Chinese

Medical Herbology and Pharmacology, the new pharmacology book by You

Ping Zhu, The Professional's Guide to Complementary and Alternative

Medicines, and Medical Herbalism. These all re-hash the same

cautions about ginseng and MAOIs and warfarin, which can be found

in the original articles on Pubmed as well.

 

Pubmed and the electronic databases on herb-drug interactions in the

UCSF medical school collection and herbalgram have a variety of

resources warning against the use of ginseng with various drugs, but

nowhere is there anything whatsoever on ginseng being implicated

with any problems with caffeine or other stimulants (though there

are several studies that suggest harm reduction with the use of

ginseng in conjunction with amphetamines, methamphetamine, and

cocaine).

 

However, I have succeeded in finding a two texts that say the same

statement that we find in Bensky- that ginseng should not be used

with coffee (or caffeine) and other stimulants (some specifically

mention amphetamines). The two books that contain this statement

are by Mills and Bone, " principles and practice of phytotherapy "

and " the essential guide to herbal safety. " The former has no

reference, and the latter refers to the reference listed below.

This reference is the only source I can find anywhere, in print, in

med databases, in general web searches- in Chinese and in English-

that makes this claim. All books and websites that have referenced

this claim refer to the same source book. Most of the websites that

have this claim are pretty shoddy, but I generally like the books by

Bone and Mills.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the only book that is the source of

these cautions is: Bradley, P.R. (ed.). 1992. British Herbal

Compendium, Vol. 1. Bournemouth: British Herbal Medicine Association.

 

This book is hard to come by (at least in the US). I haven't found

it in any school libraries, the publisher offers no PDFs, Redwing

doesn't carry it, and the book is expensive- too expensive to buy to

satisfy my curiosity on this one point of contention. One website

gives the abstract below as the source of the study upon which this

statement is based.

 

If this study is indeed the source of this caution, it appears to be

based on a lot of extrapolation and very flimsy primary evidence.

The complete absence of any published studies on pubmed or in any

UCSF resources for this caution makes me suspect that it is based on

assumption and repeated misinformation of secondary materials,

rather than actual evidence. However, because I cannot get my hands

on the British Compendium book to double-check the citation, I

cannot be sure if there is more to the picture than I am finding.

If anyone has access to this book, PLEASE send me or post

information to clarify the origin of this statement.

 

Contraindicating ginseng with all stimulants is a bold statement to

make, given that very few other texts and no other studies seem to

support the claims, and several published studies suggest that

ginseng actually reduces the side-effects of several major stimulant

drugs (AMPH,MA, Cocaine). The abstract listed as the rationale of

this statement makes no mention of any such drugs,and it is based on

saponins and isolated ginsenosides, not whole ginseng root.

 

Likewise, if anyone can explain how the study below would

contraindicate ginseng with all stimulants, that would be

appreciated.

 

If there is nothing more concrete than what I have found to support

the statement that ginseng use should be avoided with coffee and

other stimulants, I think that the caution is unnecessarily

reactionary and assumptive, and I think it is strange that this drug

interaction should be flatly stated while far more established risks

are ignored. It is one thing to say that it " may " be a risk, but if

one says that it " should not be used " then it should be backed by

evidence. Again, we are talking about the most famous and common

herbal drugs in use worldwide.

 

Author: Hiai S, Yokoyama H, Oura H, Yano S

12/1979

Journal: Endocrinol Jpn

Effects of preparations of saponin mixture and isolated

ginsenosides, extracted from the root of Panax ginseng, on plasma

corticotropin (ACTH) and corticosterone concentrations in rats were

determined by the radioimmunoassay and competitive protein binding

method. When ginseng saponin mixture was administered to rats

intraperitoneally, plasma ACTH and corticosterone increased

significantly 30, 60 and 90 min after the treatment. The kinetic

pattern of the increase in plasma ACTH was almost parallel to that

in plasma corticosterone. Isolated ginsenoside, protopanaxadiol or

protopanaxatriol glycoside, also increased plasma corticosterone.

The ginseng-induced increase in plasma corticosterone was suppressed

by pretreatment with dexamethasone. Thus the ginseng saponin was

found to act on the hypothalamus and/or hypophysis primarily, and

stimulated ACTH secretion which resulted in increased synthesis of

corticosterone in the adrenal cortex.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

I think the idea about not using coffee with ginseng may come from a

theoretical rather than a research based perspective. I heard this

about coffee and tea a couple of decades ago and have been toying with

the ideas (off and on) ever since. It may not be so much that they

create a dangerous reaction but rather that they to some extent may

cancel out the benefits (or dangers) of each other, thus lessening the

benefits of ginseng as well as the dangers of some stimulants. From a

physiological perspective we can see that ginseng(s) are more anabolic

(building up) while most of the stimulants we've mentioned in this

context are more catabolic (beaking down). In TCM terms we can see

ginseng as more tonic/building/increasing and coffee as more

catabolic/eliminating/decreasing. Of course some stimulants may be

more tonifying or detoxifying than others, but I think many of you may

get my point. The 'proof' in this case may lay more in theory and

experience (perhaps also if we compare what happens to the adrenal

weight in separate studies after these drugs) than in a single peer

reviewed study that used these compounds alone and in combination.

Gus Turpin

 

, " smilinglotus "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> In the continuing investigation of ginseng and coffee:

>

> So far I have not heard back from Eastland about the statement that

> ginseng should not be used with coffee or other stimulants.

> However, I have scoured virtually every major English text that

> warns about drug interactions with ginseng, and I have found the

> following:

>

> Ginseng and coffee or other stimulants are not listed as a risk of

> interaction in most of the texts, including the PDR of Herbal

> Medicines, German Commission E monographs, Chen & Chen's Chinese

> Medical Herbology and Pharmacology, the new pharmacology book by You

> Ping Zhu, The Professional's Guide to Complementary and Alternative

> Medicines, and Medical Herbalism. These all re-hash the same

> cautions about ginseng and MAOIs and warfarin, which can be found

> in the original articles on Pubmed as well.

>

> Pubmed and the electronic databases on herb-drug interactions in the

> UCSF medical school collection and herbalgram have a variety of

> resources warning against the use of ginseng with various drugs, but

> nowhere is there anything whatsoever on ginseng being implicated

> with any problems with caffeine or other stimulants (though there

> are several studies that suggest harm reduction with the use of

> ginseng in conjunction with amphetamines, methamphetamine, and

> cocaine).

>

> However, I have succeeded in finding a two texts that say the same

> statement that we find in Bensky- that ginseng should not be used

> with coffee (or caffeine) and other stimulants (some specifically

> mention amphetamines). The two books that contain this statement

> are by Mills and Bone, " principles and practice of phytotherapy "

> and " the essential guide to herbal safety. " The former has no

> reference, and the latter refers to the reference listed below.

> This reference is the only source I can find anywhere, in print, in

> med databases, in general web searches- in Chinese and in English-

> that makes this claim. All books and websites that have referenced

> this claim refer to the same source book. Most of the websites that

> have this claim are pretty shoddy, but I generally like the books by

> Bone and Mills.

>

> To the best of my knowledge, the only book that is the source of

> these cautions is: Bradley, P.R. (ed.). 1992. British Herbal

> Compendium, Vol. 1. Bournemouth: British Herbal Medicine Association.

>

> This book is hard to come by (at least in the US). I haven't found

> it in any school libraries, the publisher offers no PDFs, Redwing

> doesn't carry it, and the book is expensive- too expensive to buy to

> satisfy my curiosity on this one point of contention. One website

> gives the abstract below as the source of the study upon which this

> statement is based.

>

> If this study is indeed the source of this caution, it appears to be

> based on a lot of extrapolation and very flimsy primary evidence.

> The complete absence of any published studies on pubmed or in any

> UCSF resources for this caution makes me suspect that it is based on

> assumption and repeated misinformation of secondary materials,

> rather than actual evidence. However, because I cannot get my hands

> on the British Compendium book to double-check the citation, I

> cannot be sure if there is more to the picture than I am finding.

> If anyone has access to this book, PLEASE send me or post

> information to clarify the origin of this statement.

>

> Contraindicating ginseng with all stimulants is a bold statement to

> make, given that very few other texts and no other studies seem to

> support the claims, and several published studies suggest that

> ginseng actually reduces the side-effects of several major stimulant

> drugs (AMPH,MA, Cocaine). The abstract listed as the rationale of

> this statement makes no mention of any such drugs,and it is based on

> saponins and isolated ginsenosides, not whole ginseng root.

>

> Likewise, if anyone can explain how the study below would

> contraindicate ginseng with all stimulants, that would be

> appreciated.

>

> If there is nothing more concrete than what I have found to support

> the statement that ginseng use should be avoided with coffee and

> other stimulants, I think that the caution is unnecessarily

> reactionary and assumptive, and I think it is strange that this drug

> interaction should be flatly stated while far more established risks

> are ignored. It is one thing to say that it " may " be a risk, but if

> one says that it " should not be used " then it should be backed by

> evidence. Again, we are talking about the most famous and common

> herbal drugs in use worldwide.

>

> Author: Hiai S, Yokoyama H, Oura H, Yano S

> 12/1979

> Journal: Endocrinol Jpn

> Effects of preparations of saponin mixture and isolated

> ginsenosides, extracted from the root of Panax ginseng, on plasma

> corticotropin (ACTH) and corticosterone concentrations in rats were

> determined by the radioimmunoassay and competitive protein binding

> method. When ginseng saponin mixture was administered to rats

> intraperitoneally, plasma ACTH and corticosterone increased

> significantly 30, 60 and 90 min after the treatment. The kinetic

> pattern of the increase in plasma ACTH was almost parallel to that

> in plasma corticosterone. Isolated ginsenoside, protopanaxadiol or

> protopanaxatriol glycoside, also increased plasma corticosterone.

> The ginseng-induced increase in plasma corticosterone was suppressed

> by pretreatment with dexamethasone. Thus the ginseng saponin was

> found to act on the hypothalamus and/or hypophysis primarily, and

> stimulated ACTH secretion which resulted in increased synthesis of

> corticosterone in the adrenal cortex.

>

> Eric

[Guest guest]

, " Edward Turpin "

<tonics@c...> wrote:

>

>

> I think the idea about not using coffee with ginseng may come from a

> theoretical rather than a research based perspective. I heard this

> about coffee and tea a couple of decades ago and have been toying with

> the ideas (off and on) ever since. It may not be so much that they

> create a dangerous reaction but rather that they to some extent may

> cancel out the benefits (or dangers) of each other, thus lessening the

> benefits of ginseng as well as the dangers of some stimulants.

 

 

I have no issue with warnings based on theoretical possibilities.

After all, we have very little solid data that clearly establishes

true risks with herb-drug interactions. Most of what we know is

theoretical or has only been reported in isolated incidents where

causation is difficult to prove. I simply think that theoretical

interactions should be clearly indicated as theoretical, and not

presented as fact unless they can be supported by evidence.

 

You refer to cancelling of benefits. Chinese materia medicas do

mention that ginseng should not be used with tea, not because it is

dangerous, but because it is considered to reduce the efficacy of

ginseng. The same is said about Chinese radishes.

 

Coffee and methamphetamines cannot be linked to the traditional wisdom

that counsels against tea, since they were not even known to the

Chinese historically. The concern here is that ginseng would

intensify their stimulant effects, a concern that appears poorly

supported by evidence. Several parameters that measure stimulating

effects of methamphetamine in animals are reduced by ginseng, not

increased. If our texts are saying that ginseng should not be used

with coffee and other stimulants, they are not in synch with either

traditional knowledge or modern science.

 

Again, my only issue is the failure to clearly denote which risks are

theoretical and which are well-established. People can make

theoretical warnings whenever it might be justified, but exam texts

should not present theoretical risks as established facts.

 

Eric