Western herbology, TCM & infertility

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

I'm currently treating an infertility patient who's been put on a regimen of

Western herbs

by another practioner. Would anyone have any resources to recommend to help me

get a

better understanding of what she's taking? I seem to remember an herbology text

that

categorized Western herbs as if they were Chinese (ie, by taste, temp,

channels). I've only

been doing acupuncture on her, but would like to put her on a formula. She's

jing and

blood vacuous, so I feel this is really an herbal case.

 

Would be happy to share more details, if anyone is interested.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Sarah Rivkin

saydit

[Guest guest]

Here's a great book I purchased. It takes the western herbs and lists the

qualitites as the chinese herbs.

 

Energetics of Western Herbs Vol. I and 2

by Peter Holmes

 

Brian

 

saydit <saydit wrote:

 

 

Hello all,

 

I'm currently treating an infertility patient who's been put on a regimen of

Western herbs

by another practioner. Would anyone have any resources to recommend to help me

get a

better understanding of what she's taking? I seem to remember an herbology text

that

categorized Western herbs as if they were Chinese (ie, by taste, temp,

channels). I've only

been doing acupuncture on her, but would like to put her on a formula. She's

jing and

blood vacuous, so I feel this is really an herbal case.

 

Would be happy to share more details, if anyone is interested.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Sarah Rivkin

saydit

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have to respectfully disagree. The text is very much out of date,

and is the product of conceptualization, not actual clinical practice.

 

 

On Feb 1, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Brian Hardy wrote:

 

>

> Here's a great book I purchased. It takes the western herbs and lists

> the qualitites as the chinese herbs.

>

> Energetics of Western Herbs Vol. I and 2

> by Peter Holmes

>

> Brian

>

> saydit <saydit wrote:

>

>

> Hello all,

>

> I'm currently treating an infertility patient who's been put on a

> regimen of Western herbs

> by another practioner. Would anyone have any resources to recommend

> to help me get a

> better understanding of what she's taking? I seem to remember an

> herbology text that

> categorized Western herbs as if they were Chinese (ie, by taste,

> temp, channels). I've only

> been doing acupuncture on her, but would like to put her on a

> formula. She's jing and

> blood vacuous, so I feel this is really an herbal case.

>

> Would be happy to share more details, if anyone is interested.

>

> Thanks a lot,

>

> Sarah Rivkin

> saydit

>

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gotta agree with Z'ev. Too bad so many people take Peter's work as Gospel.

 

BTW, I'll be in Europe and off-line from the 3rd-16th. Should be back

on-line on the 17th. Don't know whether or not I'll have time to check

this forum again today. Maybe, maybe not.

 

Good luck and best wishes to all,

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

I second your opinion. Unless these books have been updated and corrected, I

believe they contain suggestions that may actually be dangerous.

Clinical experience is essential in coming up with TCM-style descriptions for

western herbs, as well as other considerations.

 

Often my students ask about the use of specific western herbs and how to

interpret their properties from a TCM perspective. I created an example paper

for them to use as a sort of template, that brings up all of the issues that

must be considered in such an endeavor together with warnings about how to deal

with certain types of information in the western literature. See

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2000-3.html

TCM paradigm and western herbs: Oregon Grape root as example

 

Many of the books I've seen that purport to classify western herbs according to

TCM fail to consider even a fraction of the factors outlined in the preceding

paper.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Re: Western herbology, TCM & infertility

>

>I have to respectfully disagree. The text is very much out of date,

>and is the product of conceptualization, not actual clinical practice.

>

>

>On Feb 1, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Brian Hardy wrote:

>

>>

>> Here's a great book I purchased. It takes the western herbs and lists

>> the qualitites as the chinese herbs.

>>

>> Energetics of Western Herbs Vol. I and 2

>> by Peter Holmes

>>

>> Brian

>>

>> saydit <saydit wrote:

>>

>>

>> Hello all,

>>

>> I'm currently treating an infertility patient who's been put on a

>> regimen of Western herbs

>> by another practioner. Would anyone have any resources to recommend

>> to help me get a

>> better understanding of what she's taking? I seem to remember an

>> herbology text that

>> categorized Western herbs as if they were Chinese (ie, by taste,

>> temp, channels). I've only

>> been doing acupuncture on her, but would like to put her on a

>> formula. She's jing and

>> blood vacuous, so I feel this is really an herbal case.

>>

>> Would be happy to share more details, if anyone is interested.

>>

>> Thanks a lot,

>>

>> Sarah Rivkin

>> saydit

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

What Peter Holmes did was attempt to describe the actions of western

herbs in TCM terms. He did the opposite in Jade Remedies whereby he

took TCM herbs and described them, as best he could, in Western

pharmacological terms.

 

While I agree with Z'ev that " Energetics of Western Herbs " is mostly

guessing based on theory and action, it can get you in to the ballpark

when having to answer questions as to whether or not this or that herb

is okay for a patient.

 

My main problem with this book is that it isn't focused. It seems that

every herb has just about every taste property, etc. I know that Mr.

Holmes hoped to incorporate a variety of different paradigms and so I

think that the main message of the book becomes somewhat diffused by

Greek medicine's Four organisms, the Tri Dosa of Ayurvedic physiology,

the Ground or Terrain of what looks to me like Greek medicine's version

of constitutional medicine, and three other consititutions according to

the vitalist Western herbal tradition.

 

So, TCM can easily get lost in the commotion.

 

Still, if you have lots of patients coming in with questions about

their western herbs, I've found this book to be helpful in answering

them, though I don't go much further than either supporting the

ingestion of the herb or suggesting that the patient stop taking it.

 

-al.

 

On Feb 2, 2005, at 7:31 AM, wrote:

 

> I have to respectfully disagree. The text is very much out of date,

> and is the product of conceptualization, not actual clinical practice.

>

>

> On Feb 1, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Brian Hardy wrote:

>

>>

>> Here's a great book I purchased. It takes the western herbs and lists

>> the qualitites as the chinese herbs.

>>

>> Energetics of Western Herbs Vol. I and 2

>> by Peter Holmes

>>

>> Brian

>>

>> saydit <saydit wrote:

>>

>>

>> Hello all,

>>

>> I'm currently treating an infertility patient who's been put on a

>> regimen of Western herbs

>> by another practioner. Would anyone have any resources to recommend

>> to help me get a

>> better understanding of what she's taking? I seem to remember an

>> herbology text that

>> categorized Western herbs as if they were Chinese (ie, by taste,

>> temp, channels). I've only

>> been doing acupuncture on her, but would like to put her on a

>> formula. She's jing and

>> blood vacuous, so I feel this is really an herbal case.

>>

>> Would be happy to share more details, if anyone is interested.

>>

>> Thanks a lot,

>>

>> Sarah Rivkin

>> saydit

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:

>

> Gotta agree with Z'ev. Too bad so many people take Peter's work as Gospel.

 

I am with Z'ev and Bob. Peter had to invent new patterns in his monographs,

which

suggests he either does not really understand TCM or did not have access to a

broad

range of chinese sources. However he is quite thoughtful and his words should

be

considered in the context of all the other info out there, including other

speculators like

Tierra, actual entries on western herbs in the zhong yao da ci dian and Bob

Flaws logical

methodology for analyzing western herbs and drugs (is there an article on this

topic

somewhere online). has considered all these things in his

upcoming book

and his work evidences a much deeper study of actual chinese medical literature

than

many of his predecessors. I still think the one of the best ways to understand

western

herbs is with felter's eclectic materia medica, which often provides tongue,

pulse and

chinese ten question type indications for the major entries. Its not as

accessible as the

more popular works, but it is far more authentic, IMO. the eclectics had med

schools and

wrote journals, did clinical research, etc. Many modern works on the TCM

properties of

western herbs tend to be the products of fairly isolated individuals - those

outside the

TCM community. Ideas that are not proven objectively only have as much weight

as the

consensus of a community of experts gives them. Merely putting words on paper

means

nothing if your peers reject them.

 

[Guest guest]

Peter first showed me a manuscript of the " Energetics " text about

twenty years ago, around the time we used to do informal herb walks in

the Boulder foothills of the Rockies. He is quite a unique individual,

and his knowledge of latin and other european languages allowed him to

access and study ancient herbal manuscripts in various European

libraries. Some of this data is in the text, and this, for me is the

valuable stuff in that book. However, he was working alone on his

Chinese 'descriptions' of the Western herbs, and it was too early and

immature to be an authoritative text on the subject.

 

I have the Felter text, and it is quite interesting in terms of

information organized by patterns, tongues and pulses. However, it

doesn't really deal with polypharmacy or combinations of medicinals

very much.

 

Jeremy Ross' book is also a good step in the right direction, lots of

information, but only covers a few herbs. I imagine several more 800

page volumes would be necessary to cover the depth of information he

has in the first volume.

 

 

On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:31 AM, wrote:

 

>

> I am with Z'ev and Bob.  Peter had to invent new patterns in his

> monographs, which

> suggests he either does not really understand TCM or did not have

> access to a broad

> range of chinese sources.  However he is quite thoughtful and his

> words should be

> considered in the context of all the other info out there, including

> other speculators like

> Tierra, actual entries on western herbs in the zhong yao da ci dian

> and Bob Flaws logical

> methodology for analyzing western herbs and drugs (is there an

> article on this topic

> somewhere online).  has considered all these things in

> his upcoming book

> and his work evidences a much deeper study of actual chinese medical

> literature than

> many of his predecessors.  I still think the one of the best ways to

> understand western

> herbs is with felter's eclectic materia medica, which often provides

> tongue, pulse and

> chinese ten question type indications for the major entries.  Its not

> as accessible as the

> more popular works, but it is far more authentic, IMO.  the eclectics

> had med schools and

> wrote journals, did clinical research, etc.  Many modern works on the

> TCM properties of

> western herbs tend to be the products of fairly isolated individuals

> - those outside the

> TCM community.  Ideas that are not proven objectively only have as

> much weight as the

> consensus of a community of experts gives them.  Merely putting words

> on paper means

> nothing if your peers reject them.

>

> Todd

>

>

>

>

>

>