Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 IS there any validation for those 5 element personality types in the Chinese Literature that people know of? For example, a metal yin or water yang personality profile etc. I have seen that Helm (teaching for MD's) and Jeremy Ross both use these or similar type profiling. I am just wondering where it comes from besides Europe? Any comments? -Jason tel: <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > IS there any validation for those 5 element personality types in the Chinese > Literature that people know of? For example, a metal yin or water yang > personality profile etc. I have seen that Helm (teaching for MD's) and > Jeremy Ross both use these or similar type profiling. I am just wondering > where it comes from besides Europe? Any comments? It comes from the Nei Jing. It is discussed as the wu xing zhi ren (people of the five phases). Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 > > smilinglotus [smilinglotus] > Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:49 PM > > Re: Personality Types > > > > , " " > <@c...> wrote: > > IS there any validation for those 5 element personality types in the > Chinese > > Literature that people know of? For example, a metal yin or water yang > > personality profile etc. I have seen that Helm (teaching for MD's) and > > Jeremy Ross both use these or similar type profiling. I am just > wondering > > where it comes from besides Europe? Any comments? > > > It comes from the Nei Jing. It is discussed as the wu xing zhi ren > (people of the five phases). > > Eric [Jason] Yes I understand there is a simplified version in the neijing (unless) I a missing an area (?), but it seems what these guys (Helm and Ross) are presenting is much more elaborate and sophisticated.... I am wondering where this is coming from... -Jason Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 > [Jason] > Yes I understand there is a simplified version in the neijing (unless) I a > missing an area (?), but it seems what these guys (Helm and Ross) are > presenting is much more elaborate and sophisticated.... I am wondering where > this is coming from... > > -Jason That I don't know. The part in the neijing is sparse and the subject receives very little mention in major introductory Chinese textbooks. It's my guess that this is something that is not heavily emphasized in the Chinese world but is very fertile ground for people in the West who are seeking to find something that fits their expectation of what CM has to offer. I'm guessing that you are alluding to the same thing, but I don't personally know much more about it other than the fact that it first shows up in only a few lines in the neijing and then appears to receive little obvious emphasis elsewhere. Mind you, there is a lot more out there than any one person is versed in. I just don't think that mainstream CM gives this subject a big emphasis. What other materials may exist besides the few sparse lines in the neijing, I cannot say. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 One might consider the signs of the Chinese zodiac which does say for example wood dragon or fire horse, etc and mentions whether it is a yin or yang year. The year also tends to exhibit characteristics for people born under its sign. Consitution and Chinese astrology tend to share a commonality as does all of Chinese culture. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " > > > Personality Types >Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:41:02 -0700 > >IS there any validation for those 5 element personality types in the >Chinese >Literature that people know of? For example, a metal yin or water yang >personality profile etc. I have seen that Helm (teaching for MD's) and >Jeremy Ross both use these or similar type profiling. I am just wondering >where it comes from besides Europe? Any comments? > > > >-Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > >tel: > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add >me >to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature >like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 If we accept that what Paul Unschuld states about the Neijing is true, that it is an eclectic work compiled from several authors and sources, than it makes sense that there would be a variety of materials and approaches in the texts that served as jumping off points for later explorations in Chinese medicine. This is just another road, one 'less travelled' in China than many other ones. On Feb 9, 2005, at 6:24 AM, smilinglotus wrote: > > That I don't know. The part in the neijing is sparse and the subject > receives very little mention in major introductory Chinese textbooks. > It's my guess that this is something that is not heavily emphasized > in the Chinese world but is very fertile ground for people in the West > who are seeking to find something that fits their expectation of what > CM has to offer. I'm guessing that you are alluding to the same > thing, but I don't personally know much more about it other than the > fact that it first shows up in only a few lines in the neijing and > then appears to receive little obvious emphasis elsewhere. Mind you, > there is a lot more out there than any one person is versed in. I > just don't think that mainstream CM gives this subject a big emphasis. > What other materials may exist besides the few sparse lines in the > neijing, I cannot say. > > Eric > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I believe Giovanni Maciocia address constitutional types in his books as well. However from what I have gathered from Ross, Maciocia and other TCM folks is that the types play an insignificant if any role in determine which diagnosis/formula is chosen for a particular patient. I should correctly say that it is my failure to see the connection. I do see a unmistakable, deliberate conscience correlation in body types to diagnosis in Worsley Style. In Kampo there is a deliberate connection between constitutional types (strong - average - weak) for example Moore's SHL, which corresponds to Body Types in a round about way to a specific choice of herbal formula. Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist Acupuncture is a jab well done www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. " " Personality Types IS there any validation for those 5 element personality types in the Chinese Literature that people know of? For example, a metal yin or water yang personality profile etc. I have seen that Helm (teaching for MD's) and Jeremy Ross both use these or similar type profiling. I am just wondering where it comes from besides Europe? Any comments? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > If we accept that what Paul Unschuld states about the Neijing is true, > that it is an eclectic work compiled from several authors and sources, > than it makes sense that there would be a variety of materials and > approaches in the texts that served as jumping off points for later > explorations in Chinese medicine. This is just another road, one 'less > travelled' in China than many other ones. > > Exactly. We only have access to the relatively small number of medical works that we well-preserved, and those represent only a minute fraction of the practitioners of the time. I'm sure that there are Chinese PhD students who have spent years researching topics like this. It undoubtably has more available on it, it just hasn't been a point of major emphasis in modern mainstream college-level CM texts, at least beyond a brief mention. More emphasis goes into the effects of pathologies like vacuity, phlegm, and heat on the psyche, rather than natural personality types. Maybe that type of thing was more related to a field like astrology or palmistry, and medicine was just more focused on physical-typing (yang xu, etc) rather than personality-typing. I don't know- just a guess. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 If we believe that the ancient Chinese society was one of understanding interconnections than why would we not think that body types would not be given importance in treating one to keep them healthy? I think we need to remember that keeping one healthy was very important (superior physician). Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus > > > Re: Personality Types >Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:11:05 -0000 > > > , " " ><zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > If we accept that what Paul Unschuld states about the Neijing is true, > > that it is an eclectic work compiled from several authors and sources, > > than it makes sense that there would be a variety of materials and > > approaches in the texts that served as jumping off points for later > > explorations in Chinese medicine. This is just another road, one 'less > > travelled' in China than many other ones. > > > > > >Exactly. We only have access to the relatively small number of >medical works that we well-preserved, and those represent only a >minute fraction of the practitioners of the time. I'm sure that there >are Chinese PhD students who have spent years researching topics like >this. It undoubtably has more available on it, it just hasn't been a >point of major emphasis in modern mainstream college-level CM texts, >at least beyond a brief mention. More emphasis goes into the effects >of pathologies like vacuity, phlegm, and heat on the psyche, rather >than natural personality types. > >Maybe that type of thing was more related to a field like astrology or >palmistry, and medicine was just more focused on physical-typing (yang >xu, etc) rather than personality-typing. I don't know- just a guess. > >Eric > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a lot of info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is highly presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this system of correspondences although he may have added to it. We seem to be missing something in that ancient people believed in prevention of care. It makes sense that over time they saw and catalogued people with propensities to certain conditions. We should not be so quick to dismiss this as parlour tricks. Do we practice an ancient form of energetic understanding or isolated medical techniques? Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >frances gander <threetreasures > > > Personality Types >Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:00:34 -0800 > > >Personality types: > >In the 5-E schools who follow the J.R. Worsley model, these achetypes >based on the 5 elements, are probably an elaborated-upon version from >that sparse mention in the Nei Jing. Guessing . . . that some of this >comes from Carl Jung's work, conceptually at least. Benfield & >Korngold's Beyond Heaven and Earth describe these types at length. The >5E 'personality typings' lend themselves to armchair diagnostics and >oversimplifications, like 'what's your sign?' They are fun, immensely >appealing, and can detract from the real work of CM diagnosis, IMO. I, >too, have wondered about the source, besides what's in the Nei Jing. > >Frances Gander > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I think this opens up some important questions. Paul Unschuld in his 2003 San Diego seminar pointed out that the Neijing largely emphasized preventative medicine, rather than treatment of disease. The Confucianist credo included the concept of living according to the laws of nature, and that violating these laws led to illness. Acupuncture/moxabustion, along with exercises and dietetics restored the equilibrium lost by lifestyle aberrations. We have some English translations of classical Chinese literature on macrobiotics, or yang sheng/nurturing life, such as materials from the Mawangdui manuscripts, and soon the Dunhuang manuscripts. However, without extensive research into classical texts, it is going to be difficult to find material to flesh out the constitutional materials in the Neijing. So, then we must ask, can we reconstruct or adapt these principles to the modern era practice of Chinese medicine in the West? Apparently some authors think so, considering the many examples given in other posts (Macciocia, Beinfield-Korngold, Worsley). But now we need to ask; are these ideas original ones to the authors, inspired by classical CM principles but their own creation? Where do we draw the line in what we represent as Chinese medicine? On Feb 9, 2005, at 4:47 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a > lot of > info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is > highly > presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this > system of > correspondences although he may have added to it. We seem to be > missing > something in that ancient people believed in prevention of care. It > makes > sense that over time they saw and catalogued people with propensities > to > certain conditions. We should not be so quick to dismiss this as > parlour > tricks. Do we practice an ancient form of energetic understanding or > isolated medical techniques? > Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Universal principles do not change and thus are up to the interpretation of the peoples of the time. Even with ancient knowledge, we still need to adapt this info to today. I think that most of us would agree with this idea. We do not live under the same conditions as these people did but we are definitely once again heading that way. Zev is right about preserving health according to the cycle of life. We have this understanding within our texts yet we tend to get caught up in treating illness. Let's not forget this other side of the coin as superior phsycians. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: Personality Types >Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:03:29 -0800 > >I think this opens up some important questions. > >Paul Unschuld in his 2003 San Diego seminar pointed out that the >Neijing largely emphasized preventative medicine, rather than treatment >of disease. The Confucianist credo included the concept of living >according to the laws of nature, and that violating these laws led to >illness. Acupuncture/moxabustion, along with exercises and dietetics >restored the equilibrium lost by lifestyle aberrations. > >We have some English translations of classical Chinese literature on >macrobiotics, or yang sheng/nurturing life, such as materials from the >Mawangdui manuscripts, and soon the Dunhuang manuscripts. However, >without extensive research into classical texts, it is going to be >difficult to find material to flesh out the constitutional materials in >the Neijing. > >So, then we must ask, can we reconstruct or adapt these principles to >the modern era practice of Chinese medicine in the West? Apparently >some authors think so, considering the many examples given in other >posts (Macciocia, Beinfield-Korngold, Worsley). But now we need to >ask; are these ideas original ones to the authors, inspired by >classical CM principles but their own creation? Where do we draw the >line in what we represent as Chinese medicine? > > >On Feb 9, 2005, at 4:47 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a > > lot of > > info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is > > highly > > presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this > > system of > > correspondences although he may have added to it. We seem to be > > missing > > something in that ancient people believed in prevention of care. It > > makes > > sense that over time they saw and catalogued people with propensities > > to > > certain conditions. We should not be so quick to dismiss this as > > parlour > > tricks. Do we practice an ancient form of energetic understanding or > > isolated medical techniques? > > Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: This is just another road, one 'less > travelled' in China than many other ones. perhaps one never traveled unless someone can find some cites more recent than huang di and less recent than worseley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , frances gander <threetreasures@f...> wrote: > The > 5E 'personality typings' lend themselves to armchair diagnostics and > oversimplifications, like 'what's your sign?' They are fun, immensely > appealing, and can detract from the real work of CM diagnosis, IMO. I couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > If we believe that the ancient Chinese society was one of understanding > interconnections than why would we not think that body types would not be > given importance in treating one to keep them healthy? body typing has remained a topic even in modern times. Flaws talks about shaoyang, taiyang, shao yin, tai yin types in his books. but these have mainly been discussed in terms of physical chgaracterisitcs, not mental ones. Remember personality is really a modern concept largely developed by 20th century pyschologists. It is my understanding that much of the astrological personality typing was also developed in the last 100 years as well. While their were general ideas like the firehorse being dangerous, there could not have been the type of freudian or jungian analysis we now so commonly see associated with astrology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: It is highly > presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this system of > correspondences although he may have added to it. No, it was highly presumptuous of a modern author to claim he had rediscovered a classical approach, though he has never provided any evidence and his claims have been widely dismissed as erroneous by true scholars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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