Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Personality types: In the 5-E schools who follow the J.R. Worsley model, these achetypes based on the 5 elements, are probably an elaborated-upon version from that sparse mention in the Nei Jing. Guessing . . . that some of this comes from Carl Jung's work, conceptually at least. Benfield & Korngold's Beyond Heaven and Earth describe these types at length. The 5E 'personality typings' lend themselves to armchair diagnostics and oversimplifications, like 'what's your sign?' They are fun, immensely appealing, and can detract from the real work of CM diagnosis, IMO. I, too, have wondered about the source, besides what's in the Nei Jing. Frances Gander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Ze'v, Chinese medicine throughout the years has evolved through physicians formulating ideas, testing them and incorporating them into the body of the whole, so a line is difficult indeed to draw. Many theories were outrageous in their day, and later were incorporated into the medicine. the quality of chinese medicine changes when practiced in the west, a topic of many discussions...now, maybe the question to pose here is wether we as western practitioners can evolve the medicine in a way that it has not gone before simply by changing the cultural backdrop of its practitioners. Are we qualified? my answer is yes. However, our knowledge should in good faith draw upon not only our own experience - chinese physicians that developed branching theories drew upon their roots of medical knowledge, usually passed from generation to generation of experience. That is why the classics must absolutely be studied and looked towards in developing theories and new ideas in the medicine. Eti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 When we narrow our focus to only looking at medical conditions that is all that we will see. This is the same criticism of western medicine as it neglects to deal with pre-medical conditions. We have within our ancient pre-communist TCM knowledge of health and conditions of illness progression. When we open up our minds to all information we create a better chance of helping our patient. I have noticed a tendency of practitioners/students to limit possible sources of info just because it is not commonly known nor practiced. I hope that we can learn to rise above this limited view, our profession depends upon it. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " < > > > Re: Personality Types >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:36:33 -0000 > > > , frances gander ><threetreasures@f...> >wrote: > > >The > > 5E 'personality typings' lend themselves to armchair diagnostics and > > oversimplifications, like 'what's your sign?' They are fun, immensely > > appealing, and can detract from the real work of CM diagnosis, IMO. > >I couldn't agree more. > >Todd > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > We have some English translations of classical Chinese literature on > macrobiotics, or yang sheng/nurturing life, such as materials from the > Mawangdui manuscripts, and soon the Dunhuang manuscripts. Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never will, especially with the promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent country and all the new info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in obesity in american history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much else. Lets give them what they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Personality maybe a modern thing but tendencies are not. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " < > > > Re: Personality Types >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:42:43 -0000 > > > , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> >wrote: > > If we believe that the ancient Chinese society was one of understanding > > interconnections than why would we not think that body types would not >be > > given importance in treating one to keep them healthy? > >body typing has remained a topic even in modern times. Flaws talks about >shaoyang, >taiyang, shao yin, tai yin types in his books. but these have mainly been >discussed in >terms of physical chgaracterisitcs, not mental ones. Remember personality >is really a >modern concept largely developed by 20th century pyschologists. It is my >understanding >that much of the astrological personality typing was also developed in the >last 100 years >as well. While their were general ideas like the firehorse being >dangerous, there could not >have been the type of freudian or jungian analysis we now so commonly see >associated >with astrology. > >Todd > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I do not think it is possible to change our system of care no matter how much the masses pay. We can only work with the person and their limitations not create a new body for them. More and more people are waking up to the idea that they need to take care of themselves. Some do care and those are the ones that come to us. The others can seek care with their MD. As for American health, it was the best it has been during the 1930's due to reduced food consumption. We are approaching this again due to economics. There is hope for our obesity. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " < > > >Re: Personality Types >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:34 -0000 > > > , " " <zrosenbe@s...> >wrote: > > > > > We have some English translations of classical Chinese literature on > > macrobiotics, or yang sheng/nurturing life, such as materials from the > > Mawangdui manuscripts, and soon the Dunhuang manuscripts. > >Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never will, >especially with the >promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent country >and all the new >info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in obesity >in american >history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much else. >Lets give them what >they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore. > >Todd > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: As for > American health, it was the best it has been during the 1930's due to > reduced food consumption. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Mike, I don't think that this can be true. Do you have any evidence? Many people died of starvation and the effects of malnutrition in the 1930's. Not to mention tuberculosis, dysentery, typhoid, gonorrhea, syphilis and many more... Jill Likkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Visits to hospitals as well as number of people sick were way down during this time period. Cancer, for example, was a rarity and not like it is today. Yes there were people that died due to starvation and other causes. Disease due to excessive dietary consumption were down. Kinda makes sense, huh? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Jill A. Likkel " <jilllikkel > > >Re: Personality Types >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:07:18 -0000 > > > , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > As for > > American health, it was the best it has been during the 1930's due >to > > reduced food consumption. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > >Mike, >I don't think that this can be true. Do you have any evidence? Many >people died of starvation and the effects of malnutrition in the >1930's. Not to mention tuberculosis, dysentery, typhoid, gonorrhea, >syphilis and many more... > >Jill Likkel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Mike, I am not sure exactly what you are saying, your msg.'s are vague (with proof), but maybe you could clarify a bit... For example, it is nice to say that there is all this pre-communist knowledge that we should not forget to open our mind about etc... But I ask you my original question, do you have any proof that these personality types have any validation from a Chinese source. IS there proof that they work, or do you have any sources that even go into half as much detail as some of these Western authors. We might find out that these 'personality types' are extremely valuable - I am not one to say...But a few mentions in the Neijing are absolutely NOT validation that this system works... It actually shows the opposite in my mind. For example, if future physicians (including modern) do not write about it / use it, this says to me that they believe there is not much validity. The Chinese have complete access to the Neijing, so they surely know about it. Simple survival of the fittest (of ideas). I just want to know if there is any root from actual CM vs.; is this a somewhat extreme adaptation from a Western practitioner. That kind of information is extremely valuable to ME. I just want to see some proof to back up the talk... -Jason ---- Mike has said, " I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a lot of info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is highly presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this system of correspondences although he may have added to it. " We seem to be missing something in that ancient people believed in prevention of care. It makes sense that over time they saw and catalogued people with propensities to certain conditions. " " Universal principles do not change and thus are up to the interpretation of the peoples of the time... Let's not forget this other side of the coin as superior phsycians[sic]. " " We have within our ancient > pre-communist TCM knowledge of health and conditions of illness > progression. > When we open up our minds to all information we create a better chance > of > helping our patient. I have noticed a tendency of practitioners/students > to > limit possible sources of info just because it is not commonly known nor > practiced. I hope that we can learn to rise above this limited view, our > profession depends upon it. > Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Jason, Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are asking but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped up in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and another begins? As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the profession. As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing luo. Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where does this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we need to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will try to find info as I unpack. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " > > >RE: Re: Personality Types >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700 > >Mike, > >I am not sure exactly what you are saying, your msg.'s are vague (with >proof), but maybe you could clarify a bit... For example, it is nice to say >that there is all this pre-communist knowledge that we should not forget to >open our mind about etc... But I ask you my original question, do you have >any proof that these personality types have any validation from a Chinese >source. IS there proof that they work, or do you have any sources that >even >go into half as much detail as some of these Western authors. We might >find >out that these 'personality types' are extremely valuable - I am not one to >say...But a few mentions in the Neijing are absolutely NOT validation that >this system works... It actually shows the opposite in my mind. For >example, if future physicians (including modern) do not write about it / >use >it, this says to me that they believe there is not much validity. The >Chinese have complete access to the Neijing, so they surely know about it. >Simple survival of the fittest (of ideas). > >I just want to know if there is any root from actual CM vs.; is this a >somewhat extreme adaptation from a Western practitioner. That kind of >information is extremely valuable to ME. I just want to see some proof to >back up the talk... > > >-Jason > >---- >Mike has said, > > " I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a lot >of >info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is >highly >presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this system of >correspondences although he may have added to it. > > " We seem to be missing something in that ancient people believed in >prevention of care. It makes sense that over time they saw and catalogued >people with propensities to certain conditions. " > > " Universal principles do not change and thus are up to the interpretation >of >the peoples of the time... Let's not forget this other side of the coin as >superior phsycians[sic]. " > > " We have within our ancient > > pre-communist TCM knowledge of health and conditions of illness > > progression. > > When we open up our minds to all information we create a better chance > > of > > helping our patient. I have noticed a tendency of >practitioners/students > > to > > limit possible sources of info just because it is not commonly known nor > > practiced. I hope that we can learn to rise above this limited view, >our > > profession depends upon it. > > Later > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Wow, Todd - how very cynical, this saddens me. I know you're probably being flippant, but still... I do not have this experience with my patients. Sure, some want a quick fix if they have a simple physical problem -- put his back out lifting something, sprained an ankle, got Bell's palsy, and so would I. I do see a lot of transformation in the lives of my patients, especially in chronic diseases or internal medicine. They want the advice, books I lend them, diet suggestions, qi gong videos, referrals to good yoga teachers I know. They appreciate the fact that they can start handling the problems in their life with more calm and awareness, and even start changing their lives to lessen some of those problems and stressors. That's just being a good practitioner, read the Neijing. Prevention, treat future diseases before they manifest, yada yada. Karla , " " wrote: > > Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never will, especially with the > promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent country and all the new > info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in obesity in american > history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much else. Lets give them what > they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] > Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:54 PM > > RE: Re: Personality Types > > > Jason, > Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are > asking > but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped > up > in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and > another begins? [Jason] I look forward to you unpacking your books and finding some information... But as far as a 'line' goes, there is none.. This is a cut and dry question. I am looking for Chinese validation, hence sources; that is it. Do you have this in your books? IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... Fine, but let us call things for what they are... But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, this is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is complete lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of neijing, hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency is based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... Ideas that work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or others) somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look forward to more 'proof'... -Jason As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be > ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the profession. > As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing > luo. > Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where > does > this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small > vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we need > to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will > try > to find info as I unpack. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > " " > > > > > >RE: Re: Personality Types > >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 What about popular culture references to liver spleen and gallbladder, e.g., gan qi= angry da dan = is brave and pi qi bu hao = angry (presumably because liver is overacting on spleen : ). ) All I mean by that is there seems to be some awareness historically in Chinese popular culture of the direct emotional relationships with various organs, though I don't know if this entered into the therapeutic realm or if it was regarded as an immutable inherited trait. There is certainly a somatype associated with various virtues and/or personality traits, so if you can get from a somatype to a organ or element pattern then chances are somebody else did too. I believe there are some Korean sources which refer to types based on an organ being large or small, though my recollection was this was mostly a somatype, but I think there were some additional emotional typing. Personally I think you're right. Personality typing and some diagnosis was common among those who studied physiognomy, and there is certainly an overlap there, though it might have been via popular daoist practices and more of a handed down thing than a " lets write this down " thing. It certainly doesn't show up in the classical medical texts that I have read, or for that matter in the daoist material either, but physiognomy and fortune telling were long associated with popular Daoism, and, while they might hold some truth I don't think the highbrows were paying that much attention. Some Chinese astrologers also used personality types for each element, probably based on birthyear in the 60 year cycle or some more abstruse godawful calculation, which would certainly become an issue if someone were using calendrical calculations or ideas about the years pathogen in there treatments. Whether Worsley et al were MSU is another issue I suppose. Par - " " Friday, February 11, 2005 9:33 AM RE: Re: Personality Types > > > >> >> mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] >> Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:54 PM >> >> RE: Re: Personality Types >> >> >> Jason, >> Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are >> asking >> but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped >> up >> in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and >> another begins? > [Jason] > I look forward to you unpacking your books and finding some information... > But as far as a 'line' goes, there is none.. This is a cut and dry > question. > I am looking for Chinese validation, hence sources; that is it. Do you > have > this in your books? IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good > chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... Fine, > but let us call things for what they are... > > But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, this > is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any > efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is complete > lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of neijing, > hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency is > based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... Ideas > that > work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or others) > somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look forward to > more 'proof'... > > -Jason > > > > As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be >> ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the >> profession. >> As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing >> luo. >> Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where >> does >> this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small >> vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we >> need >> to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will >> try >> to find info as I unpack. >> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> > " " >> > >> > >> >RE: Re: Personality Types >> >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700 >> > >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Jason, I think you know I agree with your position on MSU and modern interpretations of constitutional diagnosis as in Worsley acupuncture, etc. Basicially, these seem to be human potential/psychological archetypes grafted onto five phase theory. However, this doesn't mean we should dismiss the possible of a particular thread of an idea in the Nei Jing never being followed up upon somewhere in the vast literature, or in clinical practice.. It would take more resources of language, money and time than what I have to follow through the channel-based constitutional ideas. Clearly, the ideas of channel-based constitutional typing were preserved in the Jia Yi Jing by Huang Fu-mai, so he must have thought they had some importance. Also, such relatively modern practices as San-am acupuncture in Korea seem to be largely based on these constitutional types in the Nei Jing, so, yes, they still exist, even if outside of China. So, it is incorrect to say that these ideas never had any importance. They are still practiced in the acupuncture profession today. I am interested in the idea of constitutional medicine, as it appears in all pre-modern medical traditions. There is also sometimes a very fine line between constitution and pattern differentiation in Chinese medicine. From my observation it would appear as if long-standing zang-fu patterns are considered to be constitutional underlying patterns, such as in, for example, a patient with underlying spleen yang vacuity cold and phlegm-rheum who contracts wind-cold (the xiao qing long tang patient). It seems that Japanese herbal medicine uses prescription/pattern archetypes such as these, as in calling a patient a " xiao chai hu tang " patient, for example. I apologize if my ideas seem a bit rushed and half-baked, I've been writing on the fly these days. Very busy time. On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:33 AM, wrote: > IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good > chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... > Fine, > but let us call things for what they are... > > But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, > this > is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any > efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is > complete > lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of > neijing, > hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency > is > based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... > Ideas that > work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or > others) > somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look > forward to > more 'proof'... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 As I pointed out elsewhere to Jason, the four constitutional type concept in the Nei Jing is still practiced in Korea as part of San-am constitutional acupuncture. On Feb 9, 2005, at 8:34 PM, wrote: > > , " " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > This is just another road, one 'less > > travelled' in China than many other ones. > > perhaps one never traveled unless someone can find some cites more > recent than huang > di and less recent than worseley. > > Todd > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Z'ev, Just for the record I am not dismissing anything... Also I find a difference between constitutional types (as you mention) and personality types that are found in Ross's book(s) et al... This is what I am interested in... Where do all the oodles of personality stuff come from...? IS it referenced at all from the Chinese Language sources... Again a couple line mention about a shaoyin person acting like this or that, is far from what these modern authors are representing, IMHO that is... but I am not discounting anything, just wanting some references... -Jason > > [zrosenbe] > Friday, February 11, 2005 5:08 PM > > Re: Re: Personality Types > > > Jason, > I think you know I agree with your position on MSU and modern > interpretations of constitutional diagnosis as in Worsley acupuncture, > etc. Basicially, these seem to be human potential/psychological > archetypes grafted onto five phase theory. However, this doesn't mean > we should dismiss the possible of a particular thread of an idea in the > Nei Jing never being followed up upon somewhere in the vast literature, > or in clinical practice.. It would take more resources of language, > money and time than what I have to follow through the channel-based > constitutional ideas. > > Clearly, the ideas of channel-based constitutional typing were > preserved in the Jia Yi Jing by Huang Fu-mai, so he must have thought > they had some importance. Also, such relatively modern practices as > San-am acupuncture in Korea seem to be largely based on these > constitutional types in the Nei Jing, so, yes, they still exist, even > if outside of China. So, it is incorrect to say that these ideas never > had any importance. They are still practiced in the acupuncture > profession today. > > I am interested in the idea of constitutional medicine, as it appears > in all pre-modern medical traditions. There is also sometimes a very > fine line between constitution and pattern differentiation in Chinese > medicine. From my observation it would appear as if long-standing > zang-fu patterns are considered to be constitutional underlying > patterns, such as in, for example, a patient with underlying spleen > yang vacuity cold and phlegm-rheum who contracts wind-cold (the xiao > qing long tang patient). It seems that Japanese herbal medicine uses > prescription/pattern archetypes such as these, as in calling a patient > a " xiao chai hu tang " patient, for example. > > I apologize if my ideas seem a bit rushed and half-baked, I've been > writing on the fly these days. Very busy time. > > > On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:33 AM, wrote: > > > IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good > > chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... > > Fine, > > but let us call things for what they are... > > > > But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, > > this > > is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any > > efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is > > complete > > lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of > > neijing, > > hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency > > is > > based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... > > Ideas that > > work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or > > others) > > somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look > > forward to > > more 'proof'... > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > Visits to hospitals as well as number of people sick were way down during > this time period. Cancer, for example, was a rarity and not like it is > today. Hi Mike, This may be off topic but.. According to this graph cancer wasn't rare in the 1930's. http://www.cancer.org/downloads/stt/Age- Adjusted_Cancer_Death_Rates,_Females_by_Site,_US,_1930-2001.pdf Some cancers are lower now such as stomach cancer and some are higher, such as lung and bronchus. For those that are interested there is also a graph for cancers of men in the same time period. Of course there is the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' effect but what evidence do you have? Mike: Yes there were people that died due to starvation and other causes. > Disease due to excessive dietary consumption were down. Jill: Where does this come from? Kinda makes sense, > huh? > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Sorry Mike, not really... Jill Likkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 I am a bit concerned with such an extreme approach from within our profession. While I agree that we are at a clear disadvantage when it comes to classical texts for two reasons not ancient translators and not Chinese readers. We do not need this kind of bickering and in the end we are our own worst enemy as we continue to attack our own ideas. Most of us know that this medicine is based upon the concept of interconnections. What is not clear is how much this idea was practiced or written about in lost texts. None of us really knows what has happened in China¹s history as we were not there. In the end, this personality idea may only be a part of another concept as things were not usually separated in CM. This is sounding more and more like a witch hunt than an interest in ancient CM ideas. Integration not separation is at the center of CM. Let¹s work toward improving our profession. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 2/11/05 1:26 PM, " Par Scott " <parufus wrote: > What about popular culture references to liver spleen and gallbladder, e.g., > gan qi= angry da dan = is brave and pi qi bu hao = angry (presumably because > liver is overacting on spleen : ). ) All I mean by that is there seems to > be some awareness historically in Chinese popular culture of the direct > emotional relationships with various organs, though I don't know if this > entered into the therapeutic realm or if it was regarded as an immutable > inherited trait. There is certainly a somatype associated with various > virtues and/or personality traits, so if you can get from a somatype to a > organ or element pattern then chances are somebody else did too. > > I believe there are some Korean sources which refer to types based on an > organ being large or small, though my recollection was this was mostly a > somatype, but I think there were some additional emotional typing. > > Personally I think you're right. Personality typing and some diagnosis was > common among those who studied physiognomy, and there is certainly an > overlap there, though it might have been via popular daoist practices and > more of a handed down thing than a " lets write this down " thing. It > certainly doesn't show up in the classical medical texts that I have read, > or for that matter in the daoist material either, but physiognomy and > fortune telling were long associated with popular Daoism, and, while they > might hold some truth I don't think the highbrows were paying that much > attention. Some Chinese astrologers also used personality types for each > element, probably based on birthyear in the 60 year cycle or some more > abstruse godawful calculation, which would certainly become an issue if > someone were using calendrical calculations or ideas about the years > pathogen in there treatments. Whether Worsley et al were MSU is another > issue I suppose. > > Par > > > - > " " > > Friday, February 11, 2005 9:33 AM > RE: Re: Personality Types > > >> > >> > >> > >>> >> >>> >> mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] >>> >> Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:54 PM >>> >> >>> >> RE: Re: Personality Types >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Jason, >>> >> Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are >>> >> asking >>> >> but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped >>> >> up >>> >> in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and >>> >> another begins? >> > [Jason] >> > I look forward to you unpacking your books and finding some information... >> > But as far as a 'line' goes, there is none.. This is a cut and dry >> > question. >> > I am looking for Chinese validation, hence sources; that is it. Do you >> > have >> > this in your books? IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good >> > chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... Fine, >> > but let us call things for what they are... >> > >> > But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, this >> > is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any >> > efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is complete >> > lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of neijing, >> > hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency is >> > based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... Ideas >> > that >> > work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or others) >> > somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look forward to >> > more 'proof'... >> > >> > -Jason >> > >> > >> > >> > As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be >>> >> ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the >>> >> profession. >>> >> As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing >>> >> luo. >>> >> Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where >>> >> does >>> >> this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small >>> >> vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we >>> >> need >>> >> to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will >>> >> try >>> >> to find info as I unpack. >>> >> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >>>> >> > " " >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >RE: Re: Personality Types >>>> >> >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700 >>>> >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Jill, I took a look at your link and found that the graph is age adjusted (extrapolation) and noted a low rate of certain cancers back in the 30¹s. I checked the CDC site and found that incidence of cancer was very large for 2001. I think that we understand that an incidence of cancer led to mortality back then. What we see is that large numbers of cancer patients now are living longer with it. This graph does not have enough info to determine its accuracy. I came away with more questions then answers as to its relevance. I wish that I had never taken statistics in college. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 2/11/05 9:31 PM, " Jill A. Likkel " <jilllikkel wrote: > > , " mike Bowser " > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: >> > Visits to hospitals as well as number of people sick were way down > during >> > this time period. Cancer, for example, was a rarity and not like > it is >> > today. > > > Hi Mike, > This may be off topic but.. > > According to this graph cancer wasn't rare in the 1930's. > > http://www.cancer.org/downloads/stt/Age- > Adjusted_Cancer_Death_Rates,_Females_by_Site,_US,_1930-2001.pdf > > Some cancers are lower now such as stomach cancer and some are > higher, such as lung and bronchus. For those that are interested > there is also a graph for cancers of men in the same time period. > Of course there is the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' effect but > what evidence do you have? > > Mike: Yes there were people that died due to starvation and other > causes. >> > Disease due to excessive dietary consumption were down. > > Jill: Where does this come from? > > Kinda makes sense, >> > huh? >> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Sorry Mike, not really... > > Jill Likkel Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 CDC site and found that incidence of cancer was very large for 2001. >>>Also, most of the increase in CA is in older population and people did not even live long enough to get the CA they are getting today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Having practiced in several widely differing communities over 20 years, I can appreciate both points of view below. In some pockets of the U.S., a majority of people become impatient and even angry with anything that smacks of personal responsibility for one's health. In other more enlightened areas, one may see more of Karla's type of situation. In many urbans areas, there will tend to be a mixture, depending upon which social groups one is hooked up with. If one is in an area with too many of Todd's couch-potato types, in a profession like ours this can quickly lead to burnout. I advise my own students when choosing where to locate their practice, that they do a careful demographic analysis of the community before relocating. Number of health food stores, environmental awareness, tolerance of new ideas, educational levels, opportunities for outdoor exercise and recreation, level of support for the arts are all factors that correlate with the ideal type of situation that Karla describes. For example, a community like Butte, Montana, which is a toxic SuperFund site, with levels of heavy metal contamination that is so severe that the trees are stunted for miles from the city, does not attract health-conscious types of people. An alternative health practitioner there would be very frustrated. Unfortunately, with corporations increasingly being allowed to get away with toxic products, home building materials, offices, and many work places, these tend to overwhelm people to the point that many will resent your even mentioning the possibility that these factors might be responsible for their health problems. Once one begins pulling on the threads that connect to these problems, a giant mess begins to unravel, and it takes a lot of psychological skills to guide people through it. It's easier to deny all of it and ask for a pill to temporarily relieve the pain. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > " karla_renaud " <karlarenaud >Re: Personality Types > >Wow, Todd - how very cynical, this saddens me. I know you're >probably being flippant, but still... >I do not have this experience with my patients. Sure, some want a >quick fix if they have a simple physical problem -- put his back out >lifting something, sprained an ankle, got Bell's palsy, and so would >I. > I do see a lot of transformation in the lives of my patients, >especially in chronic diseases or internal medicine. They want the >advice, books I lend them, diet suggestions, qi gong videos, >referrals to good yoga teachers I know. They appreciate the fact >that they can start handling the problems in their life with more >calm and awareness, and even start changing their lives to lessen >some of those problems and stressors. >That's just being a good practitioner, read the >Neijing. Prevention, treat future diseases before they manifest, >yada yada. >Karla > > , " " > wrote: >> >> Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never >will, especially with the >> promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent >country and all the new >> info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in >obesity in american >> history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much >else. Lets give them what >> they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore. >> > > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 I, personally think that environmental toxins is probably a bigger contributor and that people who live longer are accumulating or holding more toxins, ie can cause more cellular damage. >>>No question it is a problem but we still do not know with any confidence what is the true impact.I cannot except muscle testing (O-ring or any other version), EAV or any other electrodermal testing as sufficient evidence (although interesting and with time may yield evidence). Since we find environmental toxins in almost equal amounts in healthy and sick population (i.e. one can find evidence to support either argument) we are still functioning in a territory of belief.By the way we just started our study testing 3 popular labs for heavy metal urine testing. We are sending sample for 6 patients with split samples to each lab. Thus we will find if they have both inter and intra agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 I, personally think that environmental toxins is probably a bigger contributor and that people who live longer are accumulating or holding more toxins, ie can cause more cellular damage. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: Personality Types >Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:59:44 -0600 > >CDC site and found that incidence of cancer was very large for >2001. > >>>Also, most of the increase in CA is in older population and people did >not even live long enough to get the CA they are getting today. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 You might then be interested in a CDC toxin study in which Bill Moyers took part in. I am not sure if it is on their site or not. I think on a great many of the chemicals listed in the MSDS (material safety data safety) we know they are hazardous and to what degree. You can never be 100% absolute as amount of exposure and time play a large role in the damage. >>>Mike as i said there is conflicting information. obviously there are many very dangerous chemicals for which we have very clear information. I am talking about average exposure studies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Perhaps in areas where acupuncture & Chinese herbs are more mainstream, such as Calif, one sees the type of patients who treat it the same as going to an MD to get a magic pill to " fix me. " Do those of you practicing there find this is true? I would think, however, that Calif is more enlightened about health matters in general, as insurance will pay for it, and all the " alternative, holistic " health care ideas seem to start there and spread to the rest of US. Do you think insurance paying for it changes patient's attitudes about it? Well, Roger, your points below are good to consider, but I live and work in New Hampshire, and not in southern NH close to liberal Massachusetts either. I wouldn't exactly call it enlightened, and I have to do a lot of public education about Chi Med to people who don't know much, and even very basic health education for my patients. We've only had Lic Ac laws since 1997 and there are under 100 Lic Ac (not all active) in NH so far. Our legal scope of practice is great though, we learned from other states, so that was an advantage enacting laws so recently. Everyone must be NCCAOM certified, even chiropractors (couldn't do anything about MDs). Having lived in Vermont, Calif, Austin, Boston and then moving to Concord NH several years ago, just seeing people in grocery stores was a shock (a large number of obese people and the crap in their carts), & many couch potato types, smokers too. This isn't the ideal place I would have chosen to live for my own eclectic cultural, political, & social life interests (it's conservative, no good restaurants or concerts, there are more motorcycles per capita in NH than any other state and too many snowmobiles), but I feel I am really needed and useful here, and being an outdoorswoman the natural beauty here is great. Having lived all over the US and all over the world, I've found that niche communities do exist everywhere, one just has to search them out (for personal interests as well as finding patients professionally). That can be a base, and word spreads from there, and then you go out and tell more people using language they will relate to and understand. Perhaps the " live free or die " attitude in NH, which means there are no laws requiring seat belt use in cars or helmets for motorcyclists, also makes people more receptive to personal responsibilty and living with the consequences of the choices one makes, eh? People respond to one's attitude and intent (helping them not lecturing them). My own mission when starting this work was literally " I will help people be more comfortable with transformation. " --and that's still my main goal. Presenting things as good old-fashioned common sense, that works around here! I use lots of nature metaphors, car and sports metaphors about how to live and take care of oneself. Being an optimist, I believe people want to transform and will change, it's just scary without guidance, support, and encouragement. Provide that safe atmosphere with treatment and it just happens naturally. I don't push it, it just unfolds. I do like all the demographics factors you mention below, I can see how they would be good predictors. Some us nuts have to expand this profession into new territories though! Karla >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having practiced in several widely differing communities over 20 years, I can appreciate both points of view below. In some pockets of the U.S., a majority of people become impatient and even angry with anything that smacks of personal responsibility for one's health. In other more enlightened areas, one may see more of Karla's type of situation. In many urbans areas, there will tend to be a mixture, depending upon which social groups one is hooked up with. If one is in an area with too many of Todd's couch-potato types, in a profession like ours this can quickly lead to burnout. I advise my own students when choosing where to locate their practice, that they do a careful demographic analysis of the community before relocating. Number of health food stores, environmental awareness, tolerance of new ideas, educational levels, opportunities for outdoor exercise and recreation, level of support for the arts are all factors that correlate with the ideal type of situation that Karla describes.---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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