Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Hi, I am new, and I am also a new student to TCM. I am in my second trimester, and I am finding it a little frustrating. I am an older student, therefore, I do alot of reading, in the case of TCM and being new, this can almost be dangerous, ya know! There is a saying, a little bit of knowledge can be dangerious " . Many things float around in your head, and need a slot. Last night, I had a bad experience. I have an instructor that took me to task because I would not accept that " distention " was only a disorder of Qi. I have looked it up in several books and distention is also used also for Dampness and Phlem. I guess the question is, should I accept distention only as a disorder of Qi, and forget what I read? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Holly, I think this is a simple matter of misunderstanding based on language or translation. Of course, " distension " in the sense of a tight, drumlike abdomen generally refers to qi stagnation. But in a larger picture, distension in the sense of fullness, discomfort, accumulation, bloatedness, etc. can be due to middle jiao dampness and phlegm. This is why, when I teach, I used lots of different terms. I stress to my students that patients will not come in complaining of " distension " ; they will say they feel " sick " , or " full " or even " toxic " . It is up to you to determine whether this is from gas, qi stagnation, water retention, dampness, or just that the person feels " fat " . So your teacher missed an opportunity to explore with you the various meanings and causes of " distension. " Julie Chambers - " holly mead " <flwfree Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:55 AM New to TCM > > > Hi, > > I am new, and I am also a new student to TCM. I am in > my second trimester, and I am finding it a little > frustrating. > > I am an older student, therefore, I do alot of > reading, in the case of TCM and being new, this can > almost be dangerous, ya know! There is a saying, a > little bit of knowledge can be dangerious " . Many > things float around in your head, and need a slot. > > Last night, I had a bad experience. I have an > instructor that took me to task because I would not > accept that " distention " was only a disorder of Qi. > > I have looked it up in several books and distention is > also used also for Dampness and Phlem. > > I guess the question is, should I accept distention > only as a disorder of Qi, and forget what I read? > > Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 , holly mead <flwfree> wrote: > I would not > accept that " distention " was only a disorder of Qi. > > I have looked it up in several books and distention is > also used also for Dampness and Phlem. > > I guess the question is, should I accept distention > only as a disorder of Qi, and forget what I read? Holly Excellent question. You most certainly should not forget what you read. But you must read critically and also look to verify the things you are told in books. If you cannot find the textbook citation to either support or defend the teacher's point of view, politely ask him or her where you can read more on this matter. If you have read that dampness and phlegm also lead to distention in some of your required texts, the instructor should be able to explain the discrepancy. I suspect this may come down to translation terminology. If one author is translating one term as distension and a second author another, then you may be both right. the only way to have this discussion is if we get our terms straight. Now this is hardly your fault. It is the fault of a profession that stubbornly resists the obvious and thus makes education a far more arduous task than it need be. So the first question is what sources support each point of view? What does Wiseman say? Maciocia? Kapchuk? Only the first uses a standard translation terminology that may be easily investigated with regards to the original chinese character. thyerein lies the crux of the problem. Do you know if the instructor who " took you to task " made a point of identifying his or her sources. Or if they were speaking from their personal reading in chinese, what standard do they use for translation or at least what is the pin yin for the word in question? These are all reasonable questions if asked with all due respect. I can tell you that on page 31 of Wiseman's Introduction to English Terminology of TCM, it says, " signs of dampness encumbering the spleen include ... abdominal distention " . There are in fact dozens of refrences in this book to distention associated with numerous other pathogens. But in each case that pathogen is probably obstructing the qi and that is perhaps the most proximate pathomechanism of the distention. But that really is somewhat semantic. It is certainly true qi stagnation is differentiated by distending pains, but I am not sure the converse is also true, that is distention is always an indication of qi stagnation and nothing else. The definition in the first edition of FCM refers only to visible expansion of the skin and does not limit it to any pathomechanism. From a clinical perspective, IMO, all pathogenic accumulation always causes qi stagnation if not caused by it. So this becomes somewhat moot in practice. I am sure some of language experts can clarify further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 , JulieJ8 <Juliej8@b...> wrote: So your teacher missed an opportunity to explore with > you the various meanings and causes of " distension. " > while there are various causes of distention, if we are talking about the term zhang4 which Wiseman translates as distention, there appears to be only one fairly precise meaning. the state of being stretched out or inflated. refer to both objective swelling and subjective sensation. the patient may not say this, but it should be fairly easy to determine by both looking and defining what you mean as above. OTOH, man3/fullness in wiseman terms refers only to the subjective sensation of expansion or pressure, which may or may not be associated with distention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Thanks for your reply, and I guess I was sending out a message for all of those that study and teach Chinese Medicine.....and asking an important question, a thought that has been crossing my mind of late..... made a statement once in class that he did not appreciate the " New Age " type of style of Chinese Medicine, and I must tell you that being new, that is how it comes across. I was in my clinic the other day, and I was told that most of the patients had Blood Stasis, and I asked, well how do we know that? And the answer was that under the tongue, if it is purple, and it goes up 3/4 of the way, the patient requires treatment. Hmmmm Of course I checked my own tongue, and sure enough I was told I had Blood Stasis and needed treatment. I said, treatment for WHAT exactly, I do not have pain, nor discomfort etc. Then I was told that I needed digestive enzymes.....okay.....I asked what having Blood Stasis ment to me since I had no illness that was aware of, and I was told I needed to be treated. Right..... So then I go to my OM2 instructor and I said.....I thought Blood Stasis had " pain " because that is what you are teaching me, STAGNATION IS PAIN, and I told him that I had Blood Statsis and no pain, his answer was, " pain is relative " . It seems to me that we as students are being left out of the good stuff, so I have taken Todd's advise and I am doing my own reading and my own studying. But how many people are buying this McDonald's, fast food way of teaching? As a future practitioner, will we truely be qualified to practice , because I feel that we are learning something that is an offshoot of the real thing. I hope I am wrong, but I am getting some pretty flakey answers on just about everything I ask, so I am going to stop asking. Holly --- JulieJ8 <Juliej8 wrote: > > Holly, > > I think this is a simple matter of misunderstanding > based on language or > translation. Of course, " distension " in the sense of > a tight, drumlike > abdomen generally refers to qi stagnation. But in a > larger picture, > distension in the sense of fullness, discomfort, > accumulation, bloatedness, > etc. can be due to middle jiao dampness and phlegm. > This is why, when I > teach, I used lots of different terms. I stress to > my students that patients > will not come in complaining of " distension " ; they > will say they feel > " sick " , or " full " or even " toxic " . It is up to you > to determine whether this > is from gas, qi stagnation, water retention, > dampness, or just that the > person feels " fat " . So your teacher missed an > opportunity to explore with > you the various meanings and causes of " distension. " > > > Julie Chambers > > > - > " holly mead " <flwfree > > Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:55 AM > New to TCM > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I am new, and I am also a new student to TCM. I am > in > > my second trimester, and I am finding it a little > > frustrating. > > > > I am an older student, therefore, I do alot of > > reading, in the case of TCM and being new, this > can > > almost be dangerous, ya know! There is a saying, a > > little bit of knowledge can be dangerious " . Many > > things float around in your head, and need a slot. > > > > Last night, I had a bad experience. I have an > > instructor that took me to task because I would > not > > accept that " distention " was only a disorder of > Qi. > > > > I have looked it up in several books and > distention is > > also used also for Dampness and Phlem. > > > > I guess the question is, should I accept > distention > > only as a disorder of Qi, and forget what I read? > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 , holly mead <flwfree> wrote: > > > So then I go to my OM2 instructor and I said.....I > thought Blood Stasis had " pain " because that is what > you are teaching me, STAGNATION IS PAIN, and I told > him that I had Blood Statsis and no pain, his answer > was, " pain is relative " . I am sure the teacher in questions reads this list and he is certainly a reliable source who likes critical discussion. I would offer some other possibilities. Blood stasis in the network vessels (as opposed to the main or extraordianry vessels) is also indicated by distended sublingual veins. Blood stasis in the network vessels does not necessarily manifest as pain at all. The network vessels and their deterioration with age are a major topic of TCM geriatrics. Blood stasis in the network vessels has been associated with atherosclerosis, diabetes, liver diseases, autoimmunity, depression and cancer. Since atherosclerosis starts in most Americans around age 11, it is not unrealistic that evidence shows in the tongue by early adulthood depending on diet and activity. In addition, the distended sublinguals may appear in those who symptoms are solely related to emotional manifestations of qi stagnation and blood stasis, such as depression, anxiety or insomnia. I am just offering general thoughts here as I have no familiarity with your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Holly, Before we condemn the diagnostic significance of sublingual veins, it behooves us to check out this further. My first hearing of this is from seminars with Kiiko Matsumoto. I have a great deal of respect for her clinical experience. I too have noticed predominance of this sign usually confirmed with pressure pain in lower left abdominal pain and indicating blood stagnation. Not all stasis is connected to pain. Blood stasis is found frequently in the elderly. We should not condemn what we do not understand, ask questions. This symptom is clinically relevant. It is unfortunate that your teachers did not share background info with you. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 2/10/05 11:50 PM, " holly mead " <flwfree wrote: > > Thanks for your reply, and I guess I was sending out a > message for all of those that study and teach Chinese > Medicine.....and asking an important question, a > thought that has been crossing my mind of late..... > made a statement once in class that he did not > appreciate the " New Age " type of style of Chinese > Medicine, and I must tell you that being new, that is > how it comes across. > > I was in my clinic the other day, and I was told that > most of the patients had Blood Stasis, and I asked, > well how do we know that? And the answer was that > under the tongue, if it is purple, and it goes up 3/4 > of the way, the patient requires treatment. Hmmmm > > Of course I checked my own tongue, and sure enough I > was told I had Blood Stasis and needed treatment. I > said, treatment for WHAT exactly, I do not have pain, > nor discomfort etc. Then I was told that I needed > digestive enzymes.....okay.....I asked what having > Blood Stasis ment to me since I had no illness that > was aware of, and I was told I needed to be treated. > Right..... > > So then I go to my OM2 instructor and I said.....I > thought Blood Stasis had " pain " because that is what > you are teaching me, STAGNATION IS PAIN, and I told > him that I had Blood Statsis and no pain, his answer > was, " pain is relative " . > > It seems to me that we as students are being left out > of the good stuff, so I have taken Todd's advise and I > am doing my own reading and my own studying. But how > many people are buying this McDonald's, fast food way > of teaching? As a future practitioner, will we truely > be qualified to practice , because I > feel that we are learning something that is an > offshoot of the real thing. I hope I am wrong, but I > am getting some pretty flakey answers on just about > everything I ask, so I am going to stop asking. > > Holly > > > > > --- JulieJ8 <Juliej8 wrote: > >> > >> > Holly, >> > >> > I think this is a simple matter of misunderstanding >> > based on language or >> > translation. Of course, " distension " in the sense of >> > a tight, drumlike >> > abdomen generally refers to qi stagnation. But in a >> > larger picture, >> > distension in the sense of fullness, discomfort, >> > accumulation, bloatedness, >> > etc. can be due to middle jiao dampness and phlegm. >> > This is why, when I >> > teach, I used lots of different terms. I stress to >> > my students that patients >> > will not come in complaining of " distension " ; they >> > will say they feel >> > " sick " , or " full " or even " toxic " . It is up to you >> > to determine whether this >> > is from gas, qi stagnation, water retention, >> > dampness, or just that the >> > person feels " fat " . So your teacher missed an >> > opportunity to explore with >> > you the various meanings and causes of " distension. " >> > >> > >> > Julie Chambers >> > >> > >> > - >> > " holly mead " <flwfree >> > >> > Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:55 AM >> > New to TCM >> > >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Hi, >>> > > >>> > > I am new, and I am also a new student to TCM. I am >> > in >>> > > my second trimester, and I am finding it a little >>> > > frustrating. >>> > > >>> > > I am an older student, therefore, I do alot of >>> > > reading, in the case of TCM and being new, this >> > can >>> > > almost be dangerous, ya know! There is a saying, a >>> > > little bit of knowledge can be dangerious " . Many >>> > > things float around in your head, and need a slot. >>> > > >>> > > Last night, I had a bad experience. I have an >>> > > instructor that took me to task because I would >> > not >>> > > accept that " distention " was only a disorder of >> > Qi. >>> > > >>> > > I have looked it up in several books and >> > distention is >>> > > also used also for Dampness and Phlem. >>> > > >>> > > I guess the question is, should I accept >> > distention >>> > > only as a disorder of Qi, and forget what I read? >>> > > >>> > > Thanks >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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