Guest guest Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 >All the rest of this jungian overlay you guys are talking about is MSU, pure >and simple. > Thank you for the clarification about Heiner's beliefs and approaches. Like Jason, I too am curious about the actual evidence for this personality typing that shows up in Jeremy Ross' work and others. I have no investment either way in whether there is or is not evidence in the literature for this typing. Just curious and want to know if any exists and if so, where do they come from? If they are largely MSU, then perhaps someone should set the record straight. Frances Gander > , frances gander <threetreasures@f...> >wrote: > > >>> >>> I wonder what Heiner Fruehauf has to say on the subject of evidencing >>> archetypes in the classical literature. >>> >>> Frances Gander >> >> > >Having been a personal student of Heiners and having discuused this exact subject with >him, I can assure you he does NOT entertain these ideas of jungian style archetypes as >having any development in the chin. med. lit. And lets be very clear. Heiner has a >mystical take on TCM, but he does not believe in intuition devoid of intellectual study nor >does he practice western psychotherapeutic approaches on his patients. His anecdotes on >five element emotional therapy all involve changes that occur below the level of the >patient's conscious mind and result in a physical purge. there is no conscious insightg >involved, just a redirection of the patient's qi. This is the nature of emotional work in the >CM context. All the rest of this jungian overlay you guys are talking about is MSU, pure >and simple. Don't get me wrong. I almost studied transpersonal psych instead of TCM, >but they are two unrelated subjects, IMO. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Sean, You are correct that Chiropractors can of course do anything within their own legal scope of practice, which can include the use of needles. Their own licensing laws basically say they can do any techniques they have been trained for in school, and nothing specific about how much training is really mentioned. So they can use needles technically. They can say they are doing dry needling, or trigger needling, we don't care on the board (I sit on the board) as long as the word acupuncture isn't used. DCs definitely cannot say to patients what they do with needles is acupuncture, they cannot call themselves acupuncturists and they cannot advertise that they do acupuncture. ***This is because acupuncturist as a licensed profession means more than just inserting needles, but is the diagnostic use of chinese medicine principles and the tools include many things - needles, moxa, tui na, herbs etc that are listed in our scope of practice. *** A chiropractor in NH CAN get an exception to do acupuncture and call it that and advertise it 1- if they were already practicing it in 1997 (before LicAc laws)and 2- if they can prove the same qualifications ie NCCAOM certification. So far, no one has applied for or received this exceptional status. There are definitely some DCs in NH who are saying they do acupuncture, and we have warned them about it. We definitely follow up with DCs that we find out from phone book ads, or patients calling to ask, or from LicAc in town who complain to us. I saw a DC listed as Acupuncturist in CIGNA preferred provider list online, so clearly these national insurance discount plan providers don't even check the local state laws when they authorize people for thir lists. We followed up with the DC and CIGNA to protect the NH public and the LicAc profession. Some say it's the patients who call it acupuncture because it is needling, that they themselves don't say they do acupuncture. I don't quite buy that, if the chiropractor didn't say anything or called it trigger needling, the patient would call it that too or just think it was a chiropractic technique, which it is if they aren't using chinese medicine theory and diagnosis to decide treatment. Surgeons use filiform needles for suturing, the fact that one uses needles does not make one an acupuncturist. I learned tui na techniques in China that involve traditional Oriental " spinal manipulations. " I don't use the forceful techniques here in US and I don't ever use the word " manipulation " or " adjustment " because I am sensitive to DCs and their professional province in the medical world, so I expect the same from them for LicAc and I explain it that way. If you or colleageus know anyone who is even saying it (much less advertising it) please let the board know. We send out a standard explanation letter of the relevant laws and requirements (nicely written, giving them benefit of the doubt but being firm). Karla Renaud , " Sean Doherty " <sean@n...> wrote: > > > " Everyone must be NCCAOM certified, even chiropractors (couldn't do anything > about MDs). " > > Karla, > > Not quite right, chiropractors can get the minimalist training, but can't > call or advertise what they do acupuncture. My experience with this is that > they still say they do acupuncture, but the law still keeps them from > advertising that they do. > > > > Sean > > Nashua, NH > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 So in the event that a DC continues to misrepresent themselves to the public, at what point does your board take action? I am curious to hear this as L Ac in MN have complained to the MN Bd of Chiro about similar issues only to see no action taken. We see the same fraudulent activities. Our profession should consider a massive national campaign to advertise to the public who we are in each state and who is not an L Ac. Providing clarity should be important for public safety, insurance reim, and to shine a light on the fraudulent practitioners. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " karla_renaud " <karlarenaud > > > Re: Personality Types >Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:03:53 -0000 > > > >Sean, You are correct that Chiropractors can of course do anything >within their own legal scope of practice, which can include the use >of needles. Their own licensing laws basically say they can do any >techniques they have been trained for in school, and nothing >specific about how much training is really mentioned. So they can >use needles technically. >They can say they are doing dry needling, or trigger needling, we >don't care on the board (I sit on the board) as long as the word >acupuncture isn't used. > > DCs definitely cannot say to patients what they do with needles is >acupuncture, they cannot call themselves acupuncturists and they >cannot advertise that they do acupuncture. ***This is because >acupuncturist as a licensed profession means more than just >inserting needles, but is the diagnostic use of chinese medicine >principles and the tools include many things - needles, moxa, tui >na, herbs etc that are listed in our scope of practice. *** > >A chiropractor in NH CAN get an exception to do acupuncture and call >it that and advertise it >1- if they were already practicing it in 1997 (before LicAc laws)and >2- if they can prove the same qualifications ie NCCAOM >certification. >So far, no one has applied for or received this exceptional status. >There are definitely some DCs in NH who are saying they do >acupuncture, and we have warned them about it. We definitely follow >up with DCs that we find out from phone book ads, or patients >calling to ask, or from LicAc in town who complain to us. I saw a DC >listed as Acupuncturist in CIGNA preferred provider list online, so >clearly these national insurance discount plan providers don't even >check the local state laws when they authorize people for thir >lists. We followed up with the DC and CIGNA to protect the NH >public and the LicAc profession. >Some say it's the patients who call it acupuncture because it is >needling, that they themselves don't say they do acupuncture. I >don't quite buy that, if the chiropractor didn't say anything or >called it trigger needling, the patient would call it that too or >just think it was a chiropractic technique, which it is if they >aren't using chinese medicine theory and diagnosis to decide >treatment. Surgeons use filiform needles for suturing, the fact that >one uses needles does not make one an acupuncturist. >I learned tui na techniques in China that involve traditional >Oriental " spinal manipulations. " I don't use the forceful >techniques here in US and I don't ever use the word " manipulation " >or " adjustment " because I am sensitive to DCs and their professional >province in the medical world, so I expect the same from them for >LicAc and I explain it that way. >If you or colleageus know anyone who is even saying it (much less >advertising it) please let the board know. We send out a standard >explanation letter of the relevant laws and requirements (nicely >written, giving them benefit of the doubt but being firm). >Karla Renaud > > > > , " Sean Doherty " ><sean@n...> wrote: > > > > > > " Everyone must be NCCAOM certified, even chiropractors (couldn't >do anything > > about MDs). " > > > > Karla, > > > > Not quite right, chiropractors can get the minimalist training, >but can't > > call or advertise what they do acupuncture. My experience with >this is that > > they still say they do acupuncture, but the law still keeps them >from > > advertising that they do. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > Nashua, NH > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Agreed. Twenty years ago in Colorado, when I was president of the Acupuncture Association of Colorado, chiropractors were allowed to advertise acupuncture, but not those actually trained in Chinese medicine. Several chiropractors, with 50 hour trainings, were advertising and posing as 'board-certified acupuncturists'. So two colleagues and I went to meet with the chiropractic board about this issue. It turns out that they were just as concerned, and shortly after our meeting prohibited those chiropractors from advertising as 'board-certified', or as 'acupuncturists' in any manner. On Feb 21, 2005, at 10:06 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > So in the event that a DC continues to misrepresent themselves to the > public, at what point does your board take action? I am curious to > hear > this as L Ac in MN have complained to the MN Bd of Chiro about similar > issues only to see no action taken. We see the same fraudulent > activities. > Our profession should consider a massive national campaign to > advertise to > the public who we are in each state and who is not an L Ac. Providing > clarity should be important for public safety, insurance reim, and to > shine > a light on the fraudulent practitioners. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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