Guest guest Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider requiring for admission either: 1. a bachelor's degree 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a fairly low score, BTW) In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more intellectual student body to complement the already large number of primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in the long run. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 amen. < wrote: Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider requiring for admission either: 1. a bachelor's degree 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a fairly low score, BTW) In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more intellectual student body to complement the already large number of primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in the long run. Chinese Herbs Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 I understand your concern. I was at PCOM in the mid-90's and can say that during the transitional process from L Ac to MTOM and from pm to daytime the student population changed (less maturity). There was also a large shift from clinical development to book learning. This last one I think is the big reason for concern. As for students wanting to perform internal medicine I think they can study on Sat and have a day at the park on Sunday. They might deserve it. Even scholars need compensation. When there is $ for it they will come. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > < > >cha > bachelor's degree >Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:57:02 -0800 > > >Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider >requiring for admission either: > >1. a bachelor's degree > >2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a >fairly low score, BTW) > >In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students >who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as >opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's >recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of >our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts >should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in >undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese >philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the >three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual >Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not >unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate >abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but >will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by >adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). > >Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently >unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine >physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps >we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more >intellectual student body to complement the already large number of >primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from >backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. > Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a >Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in >the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach >them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to >practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be >able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, >there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual >and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in >the long run. > > > >Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I also think that all practitioners who are deficient in a Bachelors degree should have to go and earn one... to continue to practice ; ) Just a thought! In Health Teresa Teresa Hall, L.Ac, M.S, Q.M.E. 619-517-1188 - " " < Wednesday, March 02, 2005 1:57 PM bachelor's degree > > > Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider > requiring for admission either: > > 1. a bachelor's degree > > 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a > fairly low score, BTW) > > In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students > who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as > opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's > recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of > our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts > should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in > undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese > philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the > three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual > Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not > unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate > abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but > will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by > adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). > > Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently > unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine > physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps > we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more > intellectual student body to complement the already large number of > primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from > backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. > Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a > Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in > the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach > them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to > practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be > able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, > there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual > and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in > the long run. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Would that a BA guaranteed intellectual leanings! Most students go to college (or graduate school) these days in order to earn more money, not because they're so bookishly inclined. I hear this complaint from friends of mine teaching at very good schools (Yale, Columbia, U. Chicago, Tufts, NYU, Northwestern), and it certainly was my undergraduate experience. That said, one of my biggest frustrations in TCM school has been a dearth of intellectual colleagues. (This has gotten better since I started, as many students who weren't up to par have dropped out.) My school seems to do much better than most at attracting more serious students, but I think the profession as a whole still has a ways to go. IMO, a BA would help some, but it's not an automatic fix. --Sarah Rivkin, saydit , wrote: > > Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider > requiring for admission either: > > 1. a bachelor's degree > > 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a > fairly low score, BTW) > > In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students > who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as > opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's > recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of > our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts > should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in > undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese > philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the > three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual > Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not > unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate > abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but > will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by > adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). > > Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently > unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine > physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps > we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more > intellectual student body to complement the already large number of > primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from > backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. > Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a > Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in > the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach > them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to > practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be > able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, > there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual > and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in > the long run. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 While a bachelor's degree may not be indicative of any interest in academia or of the intellectual capacity to think critically, a LACK OF a degree is a red flag that a person may not be qualified for graduate-level studies. While I suspect there will be a growing trend of students in the United States going straight to six year medical school programs straight out of high school, I do not believe this is the wisest route for TCM schools to go. If students were required to have a broad undergraduate background in Eastern philosophy/religion, linguistics, cultural studies, and biomedical sciences, a large portion of the current TCM program could be snipped away and replaced by more in-depth study with independent research. The essay required for admission, as well as the admission interview should be vital in determining whether the student behind the degree and GPA is an actual thinking human being, and not just someone who is looking for a job. saydit <saydit wrote: Would that a BA guaranteed intellectual leanings! Most students go to college (or graduate school) these days in order to earn more money, not because they're so bookishly inclined. I hear this complaint from friends of mine teaching at very good schools (Yale, Columbia, U. Chicago, Tufts, NYU, Northwestern), and it certainly was my undergraduate experience. That said, one of my biggest frustrations in TCM school has been a dearth of intellectual colleagues. (This has gotten better since I started, as many students who weren't up to par have dropped out.) My school seems to do much better than most at attracting more serious students, but I think the profession as a whole still has a ways to go. IMO, a BA would help some, but it's not an automatic fix. --Sarah Rivkin, saydit , wrote: > > Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider > requiring for admission either: > > 1. a bachelor's degree > > 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a > fairly low score, BTW) > > In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students > who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as > opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's > recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of > our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts > should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in > undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese > philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the > three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual > Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not > unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate > abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but > will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by > adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). > > Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently > unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine > physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps > we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more > intellectual student body to complement the already large number of > primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from > backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. > Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a > Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in > the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach > them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to > practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be > able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, > there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual > and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in > the long run. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 While a bachelor's degree may not be indicative of any interest in academia or of the intellectual capacity to think critically, a LACK OF a degree is a red flag that a person may not be qualified for graduate-level studies. While I suspect there will be a growing trend of students in the United States going straight to six year medical school programs straight out of high school, I do not believe this is the wisest route for TCM schools to go. If students were required to have a broad undergraduate background in Eastern philosophy/religion, linguistics, cultural studies, and biomedical sciences, a large portion of the current TCM program could be snipped away and replaced by more in-depth study with independent research. The essay required for admission, as well as the admission interview should be vital in determining whether the student behind the degree and GPA is an actual thinking human being, and not just someone who is looking for a job. saydit <saydit wrote: Would that a BA guaranteed intellectual leanings! Most students go to college (or graduate school) these days in order to earn more money, not because they're so bookishly inclined. I hear this complaint from friends of mine teaching at very good schools (Yale, Columbia, U. Chicago, Tufts, NYU, Northwestern), and it certainly was my undergraduate experience. That said, one of my biggest frustrations in TCM school has been a dearth of intellectual colleagues. (This has gotten better since I started, as many students who weren't up to par have dropped out.) My school seems to do much better than most at attracting more serious students, but I think the profession as a whole still has a ways to go. IMO, a BA would help some, but it's not an automatic fix. --Sarah Rivkin, saydit , wrote: > > Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider > requiring for admission either: > > 1. a bachelor's degree > > 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a > fairly low score, BTW) > > In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students > who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as > opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's > recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of > our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts > should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in > undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese > philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the > three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual > Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not > unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate > abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but > will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by > adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). > > Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently > unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine > physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps > we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more > intellectual student body to complement the already large number of > primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from > backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. > Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a > Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in > the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach > them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to > practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be > able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, > there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual > and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in > the long run. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I find this discussion and the " thirty year discussion " quite interesting as regards our education. In one post, Mike Bowser said: The Chinese-trained practitioners and faculty that I have met (CA and MN) practice both acu and herbs. Are we saying that they are improperly trained or lacking in education to perform both? and below you say: >If students were required to have a broad undergraduate background in >Eastern philosophy/religion, linguistics, cultural studies, and biomedical >sciences, a large portion of the current TCM program could be snipped away >and replaced by more in-depth study with independent research. The essay >required for admission, as well as the admission interview should be vital >in determining whether the student behind the degree and GPA is an actual >thinking human being, and not just someone who is looking for a job. It is interesting to me that we are able to unquestionably accept the education of someone who studied in China as sufficient but that we believe that we should have extensive undergraduate training prior to beginning our education. It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we would be better off getting students straight out of high school before they think they already know everything there is to know and are still excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? Marnae >saydit <saydit wrote: > >Would that a BA guaranteed intellectual leanings! Most students go to >college (or graduate >school) these days in order to earn more money, not because they're so >bookishly inclined. >I hear this complaint from friends of mine teaching at very good schools >(Yale, Columbia, >U. Chicago, Tufts, NYU, Northwestern), and it certainly was my >undergraduate experience. > >That said, one of my biggest frustrations in TCM school has been a dearth >of intellectual >colleagues. (This has gotten better since I started, as many students who >weren't up to par >have dropped out.) My school seems to do much better than most at >attracting more >serious students, but I think the profession as a whole still has a ways >to go. > >IMO, a BA would help some, but it's not an automatic fix. > >--Sarah Rivkin, saydit > > > , wrote: > > > > Should the professional organizations and/or accreditors consider > > requiring for admission either: > > > > 1. a bachelor's degree > > > > 2. or passing the GREs with a 900 combined in lieu of a degree (a > > fairly low score, BTW) > > > > In either case, this would dramatically decrease the number of students > > who do not have the visual skills necessary to tackle medicine (as > > opposed to bodywork). I really know nothing about any school's > > recruitment process, but it strikes me that if we want the majority of > > our students to have the proper academic aptitude, then our efforts > > should largely be directed to students who are currently involved in > > undergrad degree programs in science, medical anthropology, chinese > > philosophy, etc. I believe many of the students studying OM at the > > three schools where I have worked and those I have met at the annual > > Pacific Symposium are, by their nature, anti-intellectual. Not > > unintelligent, just either disinclined by philosophy or lacking innate > > abilities to pursue intellectual study (I will not decide which, but > > will merely observe that either way the hand appears to be dealt by > > adulthood - you either read and like to read or you don't). > > > > Thus, despite their best intentions, some students may be inherently > > unsuited to the study of the internal medicine (yet may still make fine > > physical therapists, orthopedists, spa workers, etc.). I think perhaps > > we should develop some recruitment strategies that bring in a more > > intellectual student body to complement the already large number of > > primarily kinesthetically oriented learners who largely come from > > backgrounds such as massage, sports, fitness training and martial arts. > > Let's face it, intellectual people are in the University library on a > > Saturday afternoon, not at a health fair in the park. Those folks in > > the university library aren't even considering us. How do we reach > > them? They are the ones who have the innate skills and inclinations to > > practice internal medicine at a high level. While everyone should be > > able to develop basic herbal competency in a properly designed program, > > there will always be serious limitations for those who are not visual > > and are anti-intellectual. This does not bode well for the field in > > the long run. > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Marnae, these are good points but I see the difference in that Western students choose CM while for the most part, as I understand it, Chinese Students are chosen. Chinese students have to pass a number of exams that will put them towards the top of the population. In the West anyone can get through high school and it seems just about anyone can get into CM school if they can foot the bill and have the will. While Chinese students seem alarmingly young (as I guess WM students look here to me, now, in my middle age) they will be mentored and nurtured through a more or less supportive system for their next few decades. (Again, things may be changing.) And as, I think, Bob Flaws has pointed out, we are educating these students to treat people with cancer, Lupus, diabetes and other serious diseases and then be thrown to the marketplace. I don't want to distract from the points above but I'll stick my neck out and say that my better students are always older. I think of younger ones (with a few notable exceptions) as being great in a few years as they grow older. (I've also had a few horrendous older students too). Luckily for many of us, we were " old doctors " the day we graduated. doug > > It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE > EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight > out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often > with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical > sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are > necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am > not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals > receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) > but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate > education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we > would be better off getting students straight out of high school before > they think they already know everything there is to know and are still > excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world > influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that > the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese > language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best > student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > > Marnae > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 > Mike Bowser said: > The Chinese-trained practitioners and faculty that I have met (CA and MN) > practice both acu and herbs. Are we saying that they are improperly trained > or lacking in education to perform both? Yes, I will say that. I can't tell you how many Chinese I have met who came to the U.S. not knowing any acupuncture, or at least not enough to practice, who quickly learned what was necessary in order to get a job teaching at an American school or running an American acupuncture clinic. I had Chinese in my class in 1982 who were three month acupuncture wonders once they got their exit visas to come to the West. All that glitters is not gold. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate education is and what an appropriate educational background is >>>Marnae i could not agree more. We are in the US and our community standards are much different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 As a recent grad - having experenced 5 years of study, the only difference between younger and older students that I saw, was maturity and the desire to develop a better working situation for themselves. Many of the older students were indeed the ones without a Bachelors. Should they be excluded, despite the fact their drive and comittment to learn is sometimes higher? One of the glaring problems lies with the schools being unwilling to enforce rigorous standards of testing early on in the program. Often the monetary lure of a 4 year student is more appealing than requiring solid GPA's. I also agree that there should be a way to specialize. There were some students who suffered - and I mean suffered through their herbal studies, to the overall detriment of their grades - when their natural abilities and interests lay in acupuncture. In the long run I think we are doing a disservice to both patients and the profession trying to be everything to eveyone. As far as herbal studies go - I know there was a lot to learn for the majority, but there were also many students who would have relished getting more deeply involved within the school rather than having to do self study. Surely this begs for more differentiation and specialization once the basics have been achieved. Maybe allowing specialization after sitting for Nationals - usually after 2+ years. Maybe even having inter school exchanges for semsters of specialization? Just my 2 cents Kayte Halstead Dipl. OM, Dipl., Ac., Dipl. CH. , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate > education is and what an appropriate educational background is > >>>Marnae i could not agree more. We are in the US and our community standards are much different > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we would be better off getting students straight out of high school before they think they already know everything there is to know and are still excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? Marnae Where do you get your information that in China, education in CM is strictly at the undergraduate level? Look here http://www.shmu.edu.cn/egn.htm for a list of medical schools in China offering doctoral degrees. I suspect that a bachelor's degree in is similar to a bachelor's degree in anything over here such as biology, philosophy, organic chemistry, etc. in that students can study it for four years straight out of high school, obtain the bachelor's, and then either get a job flipping burgers at McDonald's or go to graduate school. -- Jamie Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I am sure Marnae and others can respond more fully but as I've seen the bachelors CM degree would allow someone to work in a regional hospital or clinic. A Masters usually confers the MD priveledges and is roughly equivelant in hours to our MD degree with residencies etc.... PhD oftens takes the student away from the clinical setting and is focused more on research matters. doug , Jamie Koonce <untothewholeperson> wrote: > > > Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > > It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE > EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight > out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often > with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical > sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are > necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am > not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals > receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) > but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate > education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we > would be better off getting students straight out of high school before > they think they already know everything there is to know and are still > excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world > influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that > the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese > language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best > student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > > Marnae > > > Where do you get your information that in China, education in CM is strictly at the undergraduate level? Look here http://www.shmu.edu.cn/egn.htm for a list of medical schools in China offering doctoral degrees. I suspect that a bachelor's degree in Chinese Medicine is similar to a bachelor's degree in anything over here such as biology, philosophy, organic chemistry, etc. in that students can study it for four years straight out of high school, obtain the bachelor's, and then either get a job flipping burgers at McDonald's or go to graduate school. -- Jamie > > > > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Jamie - I am a medical anthropologist and have spent years studying the education of practitioners of CM in China. Of course I am aware that t there are Master's degrees and Ph.D's in CM in China. However 1) it is not possible to enter these programs until after one has completed the basic 5 year training program as an undergraduate. One cannot go to undergrad in anatomy and then get a Ph.D. in CM. 2) While the number of students entering these programs is growing, in relation to the the number of students graduating from the M.B/B.S programs it remains very small. As far as getting a job out of college - it is not the same as it is here. First of all, for the most part students who go to college do so at the expense of the government, therefore, it is generally true that they owe the government something after graduation. Generally speaking they are placed in jobs after they graduate (or they remain unemployed). For the most part it is not possible to go directly to graduate school in CM after graduating - unless you are absolutely at the top of your class in one of the top schools. Once you have a college education, the government generally does not want to waste their money on having you flipping burgers. The system is much different in China and you will make some pretty grave errors if you try to correlate it with what happens here. Marnae At 10:33 AM 3/5/2005, you wrote: >Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: > >It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE >EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight >out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often >with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical >sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are >necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am >not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals >receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) >but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate >education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we >would be better off getting students straight out of high school before >they think they already know everything there is to know and are still >excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world >influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that >the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese >language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best >student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > >Marnae > > >Where do you get your information that in China, education in CM is >strictly at the undergraduate level? Look here >http://www.shmu.edu.cn/egn.htm for a list of medical schools in China >offering doctoral degrees. I suspect that a bachelor's degree in Chinese >Medicine is similar to a bachelor's degree in anything over here such as >biology, philosophy, organic chemistry, etc. in that students can study it >for four years straight out of high school, obtain the bachelor's, and >then either get a job flipping burgers at McDonald's or go to graduate >school. -- Jamie > > > >Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Doug - Medical Baccalaureate/Bachelor of Science (M.B./B.S.) is the standard degree that students receive upon graduation from a college of CM. This is generally a 4 - 5 year program that ideally will culminate in a job in a local clinic, a hospital or a work unit clinic. If one wants to go on for further education, the first step in the Master's. As far as I can tell this is still primarily clinically based research -often about the integration of CM and biomedicine. I do not know if the Master's includes a residency or not. If one goes on to the Ph.D. indeed, the research becomes much different. Acupuncture on mice or other such " basic science " research. Although in the end, many with the Ph.D. still work in the clinical setting because that is where jobs are available. Marnae At 11:06 AM 3/5/2005, you wrote: >I am sure Marnae and others can respond more fully but as I've seen the >bachelors CM >degree would allow someone to work in a regional hospital or clinic. A >Masters usually >confers the MD priveledges and is roughly equivelant in hours to our MD >degree with >residencies etc.... PhD oftens takes the student away from the clinical >setting and is >focused more on research matters. > >doug > > > , Jamie Koonce ><untothewholeperson> wrote: > > > > > > Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > > > > It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE > > EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight > > out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often > > with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical > > sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are > > necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow > innate? I am > > not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals > > receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese > medicine) > > but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate > > education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we > > would be better off getting students straight out of high school before > > they think they already know everything there is to know and are still > > excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world > > influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know > that > > the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese > > language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best > > student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > > > > Marnae > > > > > > Where do you get your information that in China, education in CM is > strictly at the >undergraduate level? Look here http://www.shmu.edu.cn/egn.htm for a list >of medical >schools in China offering doctoral degrees. I suspect that a bachelor's >degree in Chinese >Medicine is similar to a bachelor's degree in anything over here such as >biology, >philosophy, organic chemistry, etc. in that students can study it for four >years straight out >of high school, obtain the bachelor's, and then either get a job flipping >burgers at >McDonald's or go to graduate school. -- Jamie > > > > > > > > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Doug - It is not so much that Chinese students are chosen. When students enter High School their " tracking " is begun - either in the sciences or the social sciences As seniors they take a college entrance exam. At that time they choose five areas that they would like to study. After they get their exam scores, their choices of study are refined based upon how well they did on the exam. They then choose the schools that they would like to attend (again, depending upon their scores) and a matching process (much like our medical residency matching process) is done. In the early 90's when I did my initial research and surveys, many (about 1/2) of the students studying Chinese medicine would have chosen to study biomedicine but did not score well enough on the exam to get in. This is changing somewhat as the required scores for entrance in CM colleges/universities rises. Another 1/4 are in schools of CM because that is their parents choice (either because their is a family history of studying CM or because employment is relatively stable and more guaranteed than many other possible degrees) and the last 1/4 are there because they really want to be studying CM. The majority 1/2 are usually most interested in the integration of CM and biomedicine and may try to go on to graduate school in order to work more with biomedicine. This is definitely the path that is of most interest to China and that has the most governmental support. Marnae At 04:50 PM 3/4/2005, you wrote: >Marnae, these are good points but I see the difference in that Western >students choose CM >while for the most part, as I understand it, Chinese Students are chosen. >Chinese students >have to pass a number of exams that will put them towards the top of the >population. In >the West anyone can get through high school and it seems just about anyone >can get into >CM school if they can foot the bill and have the will. While Chinese >students seem >alarmingly young (as I guess WM students look here to me, now, in my >middle age) they >will be mentored and nurtured through a more or less supportive system for >their next few >decades. (Again, things may be changing.) And as, I think, Bob Flaws has >pointed out, we >are educating these students to treat people with cancer, Lupus, diabetes >and other >serious diseases and then be thrown to the marketplace. > >I don't want to distract from the points above but I'll stick my neck out >and say that my >better students are always older. I think of younger ones (with a few >notable exceptions) >as being great in a few years as they grow older. (I've also had a few >horrendous older >students too). Luckily for many of us, we were " old doctors " the day we >graduated. > >doug > > > > > > It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE > > EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight > > out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often > > with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical > > sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are > > necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow > innate? I am > > not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals > > receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese > medicine) > > but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate > > education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we > > would be better off getting students straight out of high school before > > they think they already know everything there is to know and are still > > excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world > > influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know > that > > the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese > > language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best > > student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > > > > Marnae > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Marnae, This information is all very interesting to me and I would enjoy learning more from you off-list. I have a BA in cultural anthropology, which allows me to either 1) flip burgers or 2) go to graduate school. :-) (Currently I'm at PCOM and have read your translation of _Practical Diagnosis in _.) I agree with you that it is poor methodology to try to correlate one educational system to another, but I also believe that if the study of TCM in the USA is going to lead to a graduate-level degree, it should require an undergraduate degree for admission. If this basic requirement is not met, but an exceptional applicant for the program is able to show the ability to think critically, a history of being self-taught and knowledgable about topics that are useful for the study of TCM, and the ability to study several hours a week without feeling " overwhelmed, " then perhaps that basic requirement could be waived. Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: Jamie - I am a medical anthropologist and have spent years studying the education of practitioners of CM in China. Of course I am aware that t there are Master's degrees and Ph.D's in CM in China. However 1) it is not possible to enter these programs until after one has completed the basic 5 year training program as an undergraduate. One cannot go to undergrad in anatomy and then get a Ph.D. in CM. 2) While the number of students entering these programs is growing, in relation to the the number of students graduating from the M.B/B.S programs it remains very small. As far as getting a job out of college - it is not the same as it is here. First of all, for the most part students who go to college do so at the expense of the government, therefore, it is generally true that they owe the government something after graduation. Generally speaking they are placed in jobs after they graduate (or they remain unemployed). For the most part it is not possible to go directly to graduate school in CM after graduating - unless you are absolutely at the top of your class in one of the top schools. Once you have a college education, the government generally does not want to waste their money on having you flipping burgers. The system is much different in China and you will make some pretty grave errors if you try to correlate it with what happens here. Marnae At 10:33 AM 3/5/2005, you wrote: >Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: > >It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE >EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight >out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often >with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical >sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are >necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am >not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals >receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) >but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate >education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we >would be better off getting students straight out of high school before >they think they already know everything there is to know and are still >excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world >influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that >the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese >language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best >student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > >Marnae > > >Where do you get your information that in China, education in CM is >strictly at the undergraduate level? Look here >http://www.shmu.edu.cn/egn.htm for a list of medical schools in China >offering doctoral degrees. I suspect that a bachelor's degree in Chinese >Medicine is similar to a bachelor's degree in anything over here such as >biology, philosophy, organic chemistry, etc. in that students can study it >for four years straight out of high school, obtain the bachelor's, and >then either get a job flipping burgers at McDonald's or go to graduate >school. -- Jamie > > > >Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Marnae, I emphatically agree with your suggestions about taking students directly out of high school. Some of my very best students have been either straight out of high school or else have had only a year of college - not enough to warp their minds or brainwash them. I've also had my share of talented and capable MDs. However, in the majority of cases, I've found that most people do not seem to survive higher education with their minds and thinking ability intact. Political correctness, going along with the herd, losing their critical reasoning ability, thinking you know all there is to be learned are all common side effects of college and graduate school. Because TCM is so radically different from Western modes of thinking, I find myself, as a teacher, spending a lot of time deprogramming faulty thinking. However, I can think of four students of mine who are now highly capable practitioners, who all instantly " got " the idea of TCM pattern recognition - all seem to have a high native intelligence, and I am grateful that it was not destroyed by " higher " education. As for the current state of bachelor's education in the U.S. - it is largely mickey mouse, and anyone who insists on it as a prerequisite for professional practice is merely wanting to add on unnecessary hurdles to enter the profession to protect their own economic advantage. The only prerequisites I specify are human anatomy and physiology, biochemistry optional - if a high school graduate can do well in these courses, they have already demonstrated that they possess both the ability and willingness to learn what it takes. As for the humanities - this is better left to people reading on their own - a better education can be obtained from self-study and worldly experience than in most colleges. Interesting statistics: " The United States is 49th in the world in literacy " (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004). " The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy " (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). All this IN SPITE of having more college graduates per capita than most other nations in the world! And, yes, I am also tired of this double standard with respect to Chinese vs. Western-European. I think it is terribly naive to assume that just because someone has a Chinese surname, they are automatically more knowledgeable of TCM. I think, though, that this is not just a Chinese vs. American phenomenon. We Americans have long tended to assume that foreigners are more sophisticated than ourselves. In the 19th century America, culture was often imported from Europe in the form of traveling lecturers, poets, novelists, and scientists to help educate and refine the rubes and s out in the vast American hinterland. A friend of mine in college once joked that visiting professors from Germany or Britain could say anything at all and American students would be hypnotized by the musical sound of their accents. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > Marnae Ergil <marnae >Re: Re: bachelor's degree > >It is interesting to me that we are able to unquestionably accept the >education of someone who studied in China as sufficient but that we believe >that we should have extensive undergraduate training prior to beginning our >education. > >It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE >EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight >out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often >with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical >sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are >necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am >not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals >receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine) >but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate >education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we >would be better off getting students straight out of high school before >they think they already know everything there is to know and are still >excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world >influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that >the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese >language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best >student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards? > >Marnae > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 B.A. for admission will solve our problem. >>>How about a BS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I am a medical anthropologist and have spent years studying the education of practitioners of CM in China. >>>>Marnae I would be interested to know what changes have occurred in the last 25 years in china. Also, is there significant differences between the major schools, i.e. is it different in the south and can it explain the differences between my experience and others on the list? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 The majority 1/2 are usually most interested in the integration of CM and biomedicine and may try to go on to graduate school in order to work more with biomedicine. >>> Marnae Interesting. In 1985 the majority of the younger TCM practitioners/graduates (all having BM) were interested more in biomedicine and used it to a much higher degree than older practitioners. They did so with only BM and the quality of biomedicine was quite poor. They used drugs excessively and often at much too high doses. Has that changed? do they now need higher degrees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I also agree that there should be a way to specialize. There were some students who suffered - and I mean suffered through their herbal studies, to the overall detriment of their grades - when their natural abilities and interests lay in acupuncture. >>>>I have mixed feeling regarding this issue. When i went to ACTCM i first resented the focus on herbal medicine because i was there to study acup, and at first found learning chinese herb names difficult (and if one wanted to study with Dr Lai you had to know it). But very early in my journey in TCM it became very clear that this knowledge is indisputable and if talking about modern TCM style chinese medicine, the only way to have depth into complex patients.I think to some extent it would make a better acup as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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