Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Roger, Thanks for clarifying your postion better. While the historical info you present is interesting you seem to assume that you or the author's reasoning is the only one that matters. I do not share this same belief as I have been in court (divorce issues) and found that even with being correct, we lost. I have even gone to the appelate court level on this with the same results. Courts have bias (do not get me started on this one). My point here is one of interpretation does not always make it right. Arguments of law should be done by attorney and judges, which I do not think many of us are. I do, however, agree that one needs to understand what is going on, which tends to divide us into red and blue. Yet, I cannot understand why anyone would still remain red after what this administration has done to all but eliminate us and future livihood. Everything costs more today than it did yesterday and newer products (L Ac certificate and MTOM degree) on the market usually start lower as well. Where are you getting your quotes from on cost of education due to bureaucratic overhead and also what does that mean? TCM came into existence with the communists and has had difficulties with making a system by integrating two disparate systems. We seem to forget the integration part of the two when we discuss things of CM. There has been a history of political issues from this beginning forward, what else is there? Students could still save and come out of school with approx $20-30K as proposed in a plan to help starving graduates (my usage) by Dr. Kevin McNamee. He wrote about it on a past edition of acupuncturetoday. This would greatly help starting practitioners yet I know of no program that has invested in this option to help. Sad, very sad and very greedy. I understand that states regulate schools and degree designations but other than that how are states involved with federal financial aid? As for state leislatures passing bogus bills, it is up to them to realize what their roles as elected officials means and what they can and cannot do. By this I mean that a bill like this should never have been allowed to even happen in MT. Now having said this and also taking into account the FDA position on herbs resembling drugs I can see a future where not one of us is allowed to prescribe herbs unless you are an MD/DO. There might not be any herbal professionals L Ac or unlicensed. This would be very unnecessary but we seem to heading in that direction right now. To change this we need to create more open public support for citizens rights to choose. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >rw2 > > > Re: Re: thirty years >Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:24:50 -0700 > >I understand your point, and I do take it seriously. To reform the >corruption that is currently going on, it really helps to understand >**how** the laws are being manipulated, and what one's rights are and are >not, at least in principle, because if one does not have that as a starting >point, any lying politician or lobbyist or journalist can make people >believe whatever he wants. You will not get anywhere by simply calling >people naive or ridiculous. You certainly won't change my mind. On the >other hand, if you spot any specific flaws in either the legal background, >the strategy, or facts, that is another matter. But that will take some >study do to that, not merely relying on majority opinion or wishful >thinking. I've repeatedly asked for anyone to spot any specific flaws in >anything I've presented. Not vague generalizations. > >By the way, licensing and accreditation dramatically increases the >bureaucratic overhead in education. When I first learned TCM in a two-year >program, it cost me a total of $7,000 (1984-85). Even accounting for >inflation, the current costs are much greater. If students could save >60-70% of the costs of an education by not having to subsidize >paper-pushers, they might be able to better afford it out of pocket as I >originally did. > >On a related issue, note the increasing number of states that are seriously >considering refusing federal aid for education. Many have noted that as >federal aid goes up, bureaucratic requirements increase, expenses increase, >and quality goes down. Same thing in TCM. Political hackery and bureaucracy >have made a mess of this profession. > >I've said before, and I'll say it again - there is no need for divisiveness >on the issue of licensing - if only the acupuncturists as a body >**recognize the right of Chinese herbalists to practice as such** without a >license. As long as there is this recognition, and I do not remember seeing >any posts on this list actually opposed to this, there is no reason why we >cannot all cooperate. My goal is to create more recognition and >certification options for people who choose to specialize only in Chinese >herbology. I have absolutely no interest in interfering with acupuncture >politics - however the acupuncturists wish to regulate their profession is >fine with me as it should not affect at all what I do. > >However, note carefully: >In 1994 (+- a year?) in Montana, the state acupuncture profession lobbied >to have their practice statute amended to say that they would have the >**exclusive** right to practice Chinese herbology in the state. A little >birdy whispered in my ear what their plans were. When I found out, I was >outraged for a number of reasons. At that time the vast majority of the >local acupuncturists had very little, if any, training in Chinese >herbology. Some had actually approached me to give them a few " quickie " >weekend courses so that they could claim they had received training; I >refused pointing out that such would only be enough to make them dangerous. >I had heard rumors that many were using patents from China with heavy >metals and adulterants like pharmaceutical drugs. I testified before the >state senate committee on this matter, stating that I felt it was an >outrage and a disgrace that a profession would attempt to expand their >scope of practice without any training, and moreover, to expand it at the >expense of herbalists, licensed or non-licensed, with significantly more >training than they. The bill was forwarded to the Montana Supreme Court for >consultation, and their reply: you can't do that - change it. Several state >representatives thanked me for calling this to their attention, as many of >them are so busy that " little details " like this often slip by. > >If the acupuncture profession ever attempts this type of trick again, be >warned, I'll bring out my dogs. > > >---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist >contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ >Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA >Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > > > > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > >Re: Re: thirty years > > > >Our profession is not large enough to sustain the kind of split you >mention. > > Just think of the decrease in numbers of practitioners who might have > >benefitted from student loans that otherwise would not. As most seem to > >want to see herbs unlicensed and remain so then what happens to >herbalists > >only. By the way, I have yet to meet one of these practitioners. Our > >profession lacks the kind of numbers needed to make education >economically > >feasible. Separation worked for China. Integration worked for US > >practitioners. There are better things that we could be doing then >tearing > >at the fabric of our own profession. Come on guys this is a ridiculous >one. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > >---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist >contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ >Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA >Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Mike, The historical information I present in the article ( http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html ) are **not simply my opinions**, although I do include some of my own editorial commentary. Mostly, these are court cases that were appealed to the supreme courts of various states and are referenced as primary cases in American Jurisprudence legal encylopedia, a standard reference for law schools and lawyers. They represent a broad picture of currently accepted American case law. Not simply cases I cherry-picked to match my own biases. I have had this article posted on the RMHI website since 1997. Tens of thousands of people have read it. I regularly receive feedback regarding its usefulness and overall accuracy. Since 1997, no one has rebutted anything in the article. (In 1994, when it was written, I made several corrections based on feedback from legal professionals, including a former legal aide for the Illinois Supreme Court.) I agree with you that many courts, attorneys, and judges are corrupt. No doubt. See one of my favorite Internet iconoclasts, Sherman Skolnick for confirmation of this: http://www.skolnicksreport.com/ But like Sherman Skolnick, one of my heroes, I believe that the solution is not to give up and allow attorneys and judges to get away with their corruption. The answer is to study their tricks and mercilessly expose them. I've been at this for over 10 years now, my library has a goodly share of law books, and I take every chance I get to share legal knowledge, tricks, and talk of the latest conspiracies with other knowledgeable people. There is a vast underground network of people who know stuff that would blow your socks off and give you nightmares. Some choose to ignore this information. Others, like myself, have turned it into a hobby. I know I won't change your opinions overnight. In my teens and 20's I fancied myself a liberal socialist who believed that if only we had enough enlightened bureaucrats, that utopia would manifest like a shining city of gold - good times for everyone. I'm 51 years old now, with a lot of hard knocks and study behind me. I have little faith in bureaucracies, committees, accreditation boards, or anything of that ilk, although I will temporarily cooperate with such if these seem to be moving in the right direction (rarely). If others wish to place their faith in such, fine. But the most dramatic changes I have ever seen have often been the result of a single determined individual. I'm neither red nor blue, but multi-colored. My favorite colors are turquoise, blue-purple, and rose. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:52:27 +0000 > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 >RE: Re: Re: thirty years > >Roger, >Thanks for clarifying your postion better. While the historical info you >present is interesting you seem to assume that you or the author's reasoning >is the only one that matters. I do not share this same belief as I have >been in court (divorce issues) and found that even with being correct, we >lost. I have even gone to the appelate court level on this with the same >results. Courts have bias (do not get me started on this one). My point >here is one of interpretation does not always make it right. Arguments of >law should be done by attorney and judges, which I do not think many of us >are. I do, however, agree that one needs to understand what is going on, >which tends to divide us into red and blue. Yet, I cannot understand why >anyone would still remain red after what this administration has done to all >but eliminate us and future livihood. > >Everything costs more today than it did yesterday and newer products (L Ac >certificate and MTOM degree) on the market usually start lower as well. >Where are you getting your quotes from on cost of education due to >bureaucratic overhead and also what does that mean? > >TCM came into existence with the communists and has had difficulties with >making a system by integrating two disparate systems. We seem to forget the >integration part of the two when we discuss things of CM. There has been a >history of political issues from this beginning forward, what else is there? > >Students could still save and come out of school with approx $20-30K as >proposed in a plan to help starving graduates (my usage) by Dr. Kevin >McNamee. He wrote about it on a past edition of acupuncturetoday. This >would greatly help starting practitioners yet I know of no program that has >invested in this option to help. Sad, very sad and very greedy. > >I understand that states regulate schools and degree designations but other >than that how are states involved with federal financial aid? > >As for state leislatures passing bogus bills, it is up to them to realize >what their roles as elected officials means and what they can and cannot do. > By this I mean that a bill like this should never have been allowed to >even happen in MT. Now having said this and also taking into account the >FDA position on herbs resembling drugs I can see a future where not one of >us is allowed to prescribe herbs unless you are an MD/DO. There might not >be any herbal professionals L Ac or unlicensed. This would be very >unnecessary but we seem to heading in that direction right now. To change >this we need to create more open public support for citizens rights to >choose. > >Later > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Roger, I thank you again for your insights but would like to point out to you and others that the info format, as you have posted it, is not in the form of a legal opinion. This is simply written in a manner of a layperson and hence my comment about this being yours or your author's opinion. While you post many good points that many are not aware of we should not just give up the fight because. That would be lazy and nothing monumental has been accomplished by this. I agree with you that we should share info and all get involved as the education of the masses is the only true way to change. We should neither let the corrupt continue their corrupt ways. More alarming is that this trend is about to continue with more corrupt appointees to the judicial bench, which determines the interpretation of the laws. If you think it is bad now wait till you see what it will be like with these new appointees. You are not likely to change my opinions as I have seen much more corruption than many and believe that the people need to get involved as well as the politicians. I think we need solidarity not division. The more ways we attack this problem the better chance of victory we have. If our profession collectively is moving forward with doctoral degrees, licensure and public acceptance as a result, we need to step up to the plate and say yes. We should not become obstructionist because we do not like this or that instead we need to help change it in the most positive way. Let's take one hint from the current adminstration that division does not make you stronger just ask George Bush. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >rw2 > > > RE: Re: Re: thirty years >Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:58:12 -0700 > >Mike, > >The historical information I present in the article > ( > http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html > ) >are **not simply my opinions**, although I do include some of my own >editorial commentary. Mostly, these are court cases that were appealed to >the supreme courts of various states and are referenced as primary cases in >American Jurisprudence legal encylopedia, a standard reference for law >schools and lawyers. They represent a broad picture of currently accepted >American case law. Not simply cases I cherry-picked to match my own biases. > >I have had this article posted on the RMHI website since 1997. Tens of >thousands of people have read it. I regularly receive feedback regarding >its usefulness and overall accuracy. Since 1997, no one has rebutted >anything in the article. (In 1994, when it was written, I made several >corrections based on feedback from legal professionals, including a former >legal aide for the Illinois Supreme Court.) > >I agree with you that many courts, attorneys, and judges are corrupt. No >doubt. See one of my favorite Internet iconoclasts, Sherman Skolnick for >confirmation of this: > > http://www.skolnicksreport.com/ > >But like Sherman Skolnick, one of my heroes, I believe that the solution is >not to give up and allow attorneys and judges to get away with their >corruption. The answer is to study their tricks and mercilessly expose >them. I've been at this for over 10 years now, my library has a goodly >share of law books, and I take every chance I get to share legal knowledge, >tricks, and talk of the latest conspiracies with other knowledgeable >people. There is a vast underground network of people who know stuff that >would blow your socks off and give you nightmares. >Some choose to ignore this information. Others, like myself, have turned it >into a hobby. > >I know I won't change your opinions overnight. In my teens and 20's I >fancied myself a liberal socialist who believed that if only we had enough >enlightened bureaucrats, that utopia would manifest like a shining city of >gold - good times for everyone. I'm 51 years old now, with a lot of hard >knocks and study behind me. I have little faith in bureaucracies, >committees, accreditation boards, or anything of that ilk, although I will >temporarily cooperate with such if these seem to be moving in the right >direction (rarely). If others wish to place their faith in such, fine. But >the most dramatic changes I have ever seen have often been the result of a >single determined individual. I'm neither red nor blue, but multi-colored. >My favorite colors are turquoise, blue-purple, and rose. > >---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist >contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ >Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA >Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > > > > > Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:52:27 +0000 > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > >RE: Re: Re: thirty years > > > >Roger, > >Thanks for clarifying your postion better. While the historical info you > >present is interesting you seem to assume that you or the author's >reasoning > >is the only one that matters. I do not share this same belief as I have > >been in court (divorce issues) and found that even with being correct, we > >lost. I have even gone to the appelate court level on this with the same > >results. Courts have bias (do not get me started on this one). My point > >here is one of interpretation does not always make it right. Arguments >of > >law should be done by attorney and judges, which I do not think many of >us > >are. I do, however, agree that one needs to understand what is going on, > >which tends to divide us into red and blue. Yet, I cannot understand why > >anyone would still remain red after what this administration has done to >all > >but eliminate us and future livihood. > > > >Everything costs more today than it did yesterday and newer products (L >Ac > >certificate and MTOM degree) on the market usually start lower as well. > >Where are you getting your quotes from on cost of education due to > >bureaucratic overhead and also what does that mean? > > > >TCM came into existence with the communists and has had difficulties with > >making a system by integrating two disparate systems. We seem to forget >the > >integration part of the two when we discuss things of CM. There has been >a > >history of political issues from this beginning forward, what else is >there? > > > >Students could still save and come out of school with approx $20-30K as > >proposed in a plan to help starving graduates (my usage) by Dr. Kevin > >McNamee. He wrote about it on a past edition of acupuncturetoday. This > >would greatly help starting practitioners yet I know of no program that >has > >invested in this option to help. Sad, very sad and very greedy. > > > >I understand that states regulate schools and degree designations but >other > >than that how are states involved with federal financial aid? > > > >As for state leislatures passing bogus bills, it is up to them to realize > >what their roles as elected officials means and what they can and cannot >do. > > By this I mean that a bill like this should never have been allowed to > >even happen in MT. Now having said this and also taking into account the > >FDA position on herbs resembling drugs I can see a future where not one >of > >us is allowed to prescribe herbs unless you are an MD/DO. There might >not > >be any herbal professionals L Ac or unlicensed. This would be very > >unnecessary but we seem to heading in that direction right now. To >change > >this we need to create more open public support for citizens rights to > >choose. > > > >Later > > > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > >---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist >contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ >Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA >Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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