bachelor's degree

[Guest guest]

Jamie and all -

 

I do not disagree that often a B.A. degree is a good indicator of how well

one is going to do in a CM program - but often it is not. The number of

individuals I have met, both in CM programs and out of them, who have a

B.A. who do not know how to write, cannot read critically and could not

make it through one of the better CM programs is huge. The problem is much

deeper than " requiring a B.A. for entrance. " A B.A. is getting easier and

easier to get, even with a good G.P.A. And, being able to get through the

first year of a program because one is academically qualified does not

necessarily mean that one will make a good clinician. Obviously I value

education and I have learned to recognize that individuals who come with

certain undergraduate backgrounds (Language, Anthropology, Sciences,

History etc.) will often do better than others butI still am not sure that

requiring a B.A. for admission will solve our problem. One ofthe things

that we have often talked about is how to admit students to the program but

not to the clinical program. Acceptance into the clinical program would

require that students apply and be evaluated by their faculty. This could

certainly weed out some of the more problematic students before they got

too far along in the program.

 

I think however, that unfortunately creating the kind of shift that I and

many of us would envision will take an economic upheaval. As long as there

are some schools who continue to admit just about anyone, the financial

difficulties of being an institution that does not do that will

remain. And, even one school doesn't admit someone, another will. And in

the end, the consumer has no way to differentiate one L.Ac. from

another. Just as the consumer has no way to differentiate one M.D. from

another - the consumer can't access a transcript nor should we expect them

to do the research to determine what the best schools in our field are (our

students don't even do a very good job of that) expecially since it is very

hard to determine. Is the best school the biggest school? Is the best

school the one that has a " master " at its helm? Is the best school the

academically hardest school? Is the best school the one that starts

clinical training on day 1 or after the first year?

 

We are in a profession (if we choose to be a profession) that is growing

and changing and to a certain extent we can determine its future, but not

entirely. We can be iconoclasts and start an herbal training program that

does not wish to work with the current accreditation, testing, etc.

standards (witness the success of Roger), but can we all do that? And, as

I asked Roger before, what happens when there are 40 such schools and no

way to determine who is teaching what or even the validity of the faculty

etc. Again, the consumer cannot differentiate, and if our goal is give

good medicine to the consumer then we need to figure out a way to make sure

that only good medicine is being taught. Because remember, in the end it

is the public, the consumer to whom our ultimate responsibility lies - even

more so than to our students!

 

OK - I'm signing off for a while. Jamie, if you would like to contact me

off-line feel free to do so at marnae

 

Marnae

 

At 01:12 PM 3/5/2005, you wrote:

 

>Marnae,

>This information is all very interesting to me and I would enjoy learning

>more from you off-list. I have a BA in cultural anthropology, which

>allows me to either 1) flip burgers or 2) go to graduate school.

>:-) (Currently I'm at PCOM and have read your translation of _Practical

>Diagnosis in _.) I agree with you that it is poor

>methodology to try to correlate one educational system to another, but I

>also believe that if the study of TCM in the USA is going to lead to a

>graduate-level degree, it should require an undergraduate degree for

>admission. If this basic requirement is not met, but an exceptional

>applicant for the program is able to show the ability to think critically,

>a history of being self-taught and knowledgable about topics that are

>useful for the study of TCM, and the ability to study several hours a week

>without feeling " overwhelmed, " then perhaps that basic requirement could

>be waived.

>

>Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

>Jamie -

>

>I am a medical anthropologist and have spent years studying the education

>of practitioners of CM in China. Of course I am aware that t there are

>Master's degrees and Ph.D's in CM in China. However 1) it is not possible

>to enter these programs until after one has completed the basic 5 year

>training program as an undergraduate. One cannot go to undergrad in

>anatomy and then get a Ph.D. in CM. 2) While the number of students

>entering these programs is growing, in relation to the the number of

>students graduating from the M.B/B.S programs it remains very small.

>

>As far as getting a job out of college - it is not the same as it is

>here. First of all, for the most part students who go to college do so at

>the expense of the government, therefore, it is generally true that they

>owe the government something after graduation. Generally speaking they are

>placed in jobs after they graduate (or they remain unemployed). For the

>most part it is not possible to go directly to graduate school in CM after

>graduating - unless you are absolutely at the top of your class in one of

>the top schools. Once you have a college education, the government

>generally does not want to waste their money on having you flipping

>burgers. The system is much different in China and you will make some

>pretty grave errors if you try to correlate it with what happens here.

>

>Marnae

>At 10:33 AM 3/5/2005, you wrote:

>

>

>

> >Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

> >

> >It should be remembered that in China, education in CM is UNDERGRADUATE

> >EDUCATION. Students enter colleges of CM at about age 17 or 18, straight

> >out of high school, with absolutely no liberal arts bacground and often

> >with no philosophy, religion, linguistics, cultural studies or biomedical

> >sciences. Is it just because they are Chinese that we feel that these are

> >necessary for us but not for them? Is this knowledge somehow innate? I am

> >not trying to say that the 5 years of education that these individuals

> >receive is " lacking " (but remember that much of it is NOT Chinese medicine)

> >but simply that we should look at our own notions of what an appropriate

> >education is and what an appropriate educational background is. Maybe we

> >would be better off getting students straight out of high school before

> >they think they already know everything there is to know and are still

> >excited about learning and willing to have their views of the world

> >influenced. I'm not sure I really feel this way, and I certainly know that

> >the student with an excellent background in Asian Studies, Chinese

> >language, biomedical sciences and anthropology usually makes the best

> >student of Chinese medicine, but why do we have such different standards?

> >

> >Marnae

> >

> >

> >Where do you get your information that in China, education in CM is

> >strictly at the undergraduate level? Look here

> >http://www.shmu.edu.cn/egn.htm for a list of medical schools in China

> >offering doctoral degrees. I suspect that a bachelor's degree in Chinese

> >Medicine is similar to a bachelor's degree in anything over here such as

> >biology, philosophy, organic chemistry, etc. in that students can study it

> >for four years straight out of high school, obtain the bachelor's, and

> >then either get a job flipping burgers at McDonald's or go to graduate

> >school. -- Jamie

> >

> >

> >

> >Celebrate 's 10th Birthday!

> > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I need to clarify something. I think life experience can easily make

up for lack of formal training in the development of intellect. It is

those who have neither who do not possess the necessary skills to

succeed in TCM herbology. I think the issue is really regarding the

younger students, who may have neither the academic training nor the

life experience. Such students make up a large part of the current

student bodies of all acupuncture schools. Many do not even have

associate's degrees. So age would seem to be a dividing line here

inmost cases. A 22 year old who has not learned either to think

formally nor alternately had a lifetime in which to develop his mind

has not really had what I call the ideal foundations for med school In

almost every case where a student of mine, who had not had a prior

history or inclination towards academics, excelled in chinese

herbology, that person was a mature adult. All a 22 year old has going

for them is their formal education. And without even that, they will

have a lot of difficulty with the rigor of TCM.

 

Now there are rare exceptions. In fact, ironically perhaps, some of

the more well known herbalists in the field never got bachelor's

degrees themselves. My observation is merely that those with formal

academic training generally do better in herbs, all else being equal.

But, as Roger has pointed out, those with life experience building

things often do well. In fact, it is quite clear that the similar

skills needed for medical diagnosis come into play in auto repair or

computer troubleshooting or any form of problem solving. Managers who

actively solve problems also have the requisite skills. But there are

indeed others that don't. And we must seriously consider how far we

push the concept of bending the subject to the learner rather than vice

versa. We would would not expect physics to be taught with less math

to engage students who are bad or disinclined towards math. Perhaps at

the grade school level to generate interest. But certainly not at the

professional level.

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I am a medical anthropologist and have spent years studying the

education

> of practitioners of CM in China.

> >>>>Marnae

> I would be interested to know what changes have occurred in the last

25 years in china. Also, is there significant differences between the

major schools, i.e. is it different in the south and can it explain

the differences between my experience and others on the list?

> Thanks

>

 

(Tom)I have just returned to the Western world after three years in

Nanjing and one in Hong Kong. I'm not an anthropologist, but here is

what I experienced:

In general, I have to agree with Marnae. There is one thing I feel I

should add to what she wrote. It is certainly true that students take

many tests during their time in elementary and middle school (high

school in the US). However, I also had the impression that a

significant factor in deciding which university the child will attend,

is the parents, mostly just the father. If the father says: I want you

to become a scientist, or an engineer, or a doctor, the child will

obey and do that. I can't tell you how many students I talked to were

in TCM uni because of this reason.

As to employment opportunities, I also had the impression that only

graduates were really allowed to work in the hospitals in the bigger

cities. As an undergraduate, you may call yourself lucky if you can

find a job in a town 50 or 100 kms away from a center like Nanjing or

Shanghai. That job would pay you 800 rmb per month (less than 100 USD

per month). Graduates with good scores can get a job in a city clinic,

but often they will not have many patients; all the patients go to the

lao zhongyi next door.

As to studying acupuncture and/ or Chinese herbs: what Steve Slater

said. He's quite correct in pointing out that yes there is a

cross-over but the clinical training you receive (internship) will be

in your chosen field: herbs OR tuina/ acupuncture. All of the students

must learn all of the points and AP theories, and all of the students

must learn all of the herbs. But, exams are stripped of critical

thinking, almost all of the questions are taken from the textbook.

Students like that, teachers like that, I didn't. I always felt like

an ape or a parrot doing just that. I even would go as far as saying

it is an insult to the intelligence of the students (and probably also

the teachers.) Anyway, that is how is taught in China: ex cathedra. on

occasion, I have been in front of a group of students, and if you

deviate just a little bit from that safe norm and ask for input and

interaction, students are just perplexed. They're so not used to that.

 

Furthermore, acupuncture is just one of the many courses taught over a

time span of five years. Examination styles in general only require

you to memorize the course material: I think we all know that is a

short-term memory function, right? Get my point? By the time they

graduate, most of the herb student will have forgotten most of what

they ever knew about AP. And the other way around.

BUT, and here's an experience that acknowledges what Alon experienced:

I have seen several acupuncturists in clinic, who did indeed write

original herbal prescriptions for their patients. Most of the

acupuncturists do not write those, but I have seen a few, and they did

it pretty fluently. They were often a bit older.

Also, the better doctors are of course those who study a lot by

themselves, know the classics by heart ( NOT merely the result of

memorization, I believe), and practice Qi Gong etc. And they see many

patients, and thus have the most experience.

 

Best wishes,

 

Tom.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/5/05 9:14:05 AM, acupuncture4health writes:

 

 

>

> I also agree that there should be a way to specialize.  There were

> some students who suffered - and I mean suffered through their

> herbal studies, to the overall detriment of their grades - when

> their natural abilities and interests lay in acupuncture.  In the

> long run I think we are doing a disservice to both patients and the

> profession trying to be everything to eveyone.

>

 

The present programs are a basic introduction to both acupuncture and herbal

medicine and other parts of OM, with, hopefuly, a focus on thinking in an OM

way. After school people decide where they want to focus with their choice of

modalities. However, they are much better at any aspect of OM than any other

field of medicine who has taken a cursory course in any single aspect, just

because of their deeper understanding, didactic and clinical, of OM.

We can argue endlessly on whether they have enough training to do this, but

they have more than anyone else, and we are working on expanding on that to a

clinical first professional degree doctorate program, where people who graduate

will consistently be able to practice Oriental Medicine as a whole, and with

a focus, or specialty, including a GP one I assume. The reality is that this

program is just being developed and we don't exactly know what it will look

like, and we can't. We can, however, try and make it the best program we

possibly

can with the resources we have. I personally think it will be a great program

and will be a great boon to our profession.

 

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

 

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