Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Hi Yehuda I have a question regarding the pdrecovery. If it tuns out that they are truly up on to something Real, should we claim it to be part of CM? Since this was developed by US LAcs is this the so-called property of the acupuncture profession and now part of CM? Since they think of it as affecting the " St channel " is this CM? Since the techniques are not what we think of as tuina is this updated CM bodywork? You get my point. I wish you wife the best of luck and awaiting updates Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Dear Alon, Your questions are certainly valid. First, I again emphasize, PLEASE read the practitioner handbook updates: www.pdrecovery.org . The entire basis of the theory behind their work as well as the Yin tuina is all based upon classical sources, particularly the Nei Jing, as Janice points out. FSR is merely a translation of Zhi Fa Bu Yong Li Yin Tui Na. Zhi Fa means to generate by itself, Bu Yong Li means not using force, thus for simplicity sake Janice called it Forceless Spontaneous Release. She also points out, interestingly, that in Deadman et al’s “Manual of Acupuncture”, in the indications for St 42, he translates literally from the Chinese to “desires to ascend to high places and sing.” At some point he makes a note that this must be a reference to mental illness.But, to quote her, ...”There is a better, narrower and more literal possibility; this seemingly non-medical condition might easily be applied to many Parkinson’s patient if hte more current, English idiomatic expression, “desires to climb to the top of the heap and crow’ were substituted. When this vernacular translation is suggested, the roster of tyrants and would be emperors with PD immediately springs to mind. While many patients with PD have been described as “control Freaks” by their friends and children, and even themselves, the phrase, “desires to ascend to high places and sing’ says the same thing as “control freak”, but much more gently and poetically.” So that’s the emotional mindset that I mentioned in the previous post. Listen to what ”Acupuncture, a Comprehensive Text” (O’ Connor & Bensky) list as one of the indications of St 42, “facial paralysis (the parkinson’s mask)...no strength in the arms and legs (the rebellious Yang Ming Qi in the St and LI),” Anyway, the point I want to make is that is is not some “out-there,New- age therapy”, but rather a well researched successful therapy which utilitzes and is faithful to traditional sources. Furthermore, yin tui na is not something new, and is as old as tui na, itself closely related to medical qi gong. Sincerely, Yehuda Hi Yehuda I have a question regarding the pdrecovery. If it tuns out that they are truly up on to something Real, should we claim it to be part of CM? Since this was developed by US LAcs is this the so-called property of the acupuncture profession and now part of CM? Since they think of it as affecting the " St channel " is this CM? Since the techniques are not what we think of as tuina is this updated CM bodywork? You get my point. I wish you wife the best of luck and awaiting updates Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Yehoda Thanks for the link, I will read the book. Do you know if their treatment techniques have been actually used in chinese traditions? and by the way personally i encourage novel development using OM principles and integrative thinking. Also do you know how many PD patients have been treated so far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Alon, Specifically I don't know if what they do, has ever been done before for Parkinson's, per se. But then again, Parkinson's, to the best of my knowledge is a condition originally observed and written about in 1817 by the Englishman, James Parkinson, which he called " the shaking palsy " , and is specifically a disease of civilization. That being the case, I would suspect that the condition was not present except, perhaps in rare cases of heavy metal toxicity to the ancients. I asked one of the treating practitioners who told me that they have now successfully treated over 200 PD patients. On their site they list a number of published articles Janice Walton-Hadlock has written concerning the theory and protocol. Yehuda Yehoda Thanks for the link, I will read the book. Do you know if their treatment techniques have been actually used in chinese traditions? and by the way personally i encourage novel development using OM principles and integrative thinking. Also do you know how many PD patients have been treated so far? " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Hi Yehuda I am reading the book and have to make a comments. She states that neurologists state that dopamine is a sedative neurotransmitter and that only now they are waking up to the truth of it being a stimulate. Well i have news for her. The association of dopamine and excitation has been know for very long time, ever since thorazine has been used to treat schizophrenia. Second the effects of dopamine in PD have nothing to do with peripheral actions on muscles and therefore i do not understand why she is drawing these conclusions regarding medical hypothesis. Dopamine is used to increase blood pressure, thorazine a dopamine antagonist is one of the most powerful sedatives we have. She states dopamine increases during the night only in mice well i have news for her regarding this as well. The activity of dopaminergic neurons has circadian variation. Dopamine production increases through the night with each cycle of REM sleep (in humans). The activity at the nigrostriatal terminals is maximal in the early morning. This nocturnal variation is more marked in young children and decreases with age. Dopamine activity in nigrostriatal terminals declines further during the course of the day (as well as with increasing age), exacerbating symptoms toward evening and with increasing age. She states: PD has no genetic contributions: well Dopamine is produced from tyrosine by the action of TH, which uses BH4 as a cofactor. The first rate-limiting step for BH4 synthesis is GCH. This gene in humans contains 6 exons, and various mutations have been described. These mutations result in markedly reduced GCH values (2-20%), with a resultant decrease in dopamine content. She also states: " Parkinson's does not appear when dopamine levels are too low. Parkinson's appears when the adrenals become so exhausted that they can no longer mask the damage set in motion by the unhealed injury, damage that includes a hibernating dopamine system. When the exhausted adrenals can no longer mask the problems, the physical damage, including dopamine dormancy, is exposed " . Why then using fMRI, PATs, and postmortems clearly show the involvement of the dopamenegic systems? Also adrenal exhaustion is easily measured does she has any such measurements? As i continue to read i will have more comments. Its hard for me to believe that having " cured " 200 cases of PD has not received much more mainstream exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Let me clarify one thing that I said in the last post: When I said that Parkinson's is a disease of civilization, I meant by that, our modern urban industrial/technological society, which is certainly not conducive to wellness and spontaneity. Antecdotally, I have been told that the country with the highest incidence of Parkinson's is England. Coincidence? Yehuda Alon, Specifically I don't know if what they do, has ever been done before for Parkinson's, per se. But then again, Parkinson's, to the best of my knowledge is a condition originally observed and written about in 1817 by the Englishman, James Parkinson, which he called " the shaking palsy " , and is specifically a disease of civilization. That being the case, I would suspect that the condition was not present except, perhaps in rare cases of heavy metal toxicity to the ancients. I asked one of the treating practitioners who told me that they have now successfully treated over 200 PD patients. On their site they list a number of published articles Janice Walton-Hadlock has written concerning the theory and protocol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Yehoda She states that the dopamine acts in reverse to adrenaline. In fact it has different mechanisms which are concentration-dependent and often are synergistic to adrenaline. They by no means 2 apposing systems and dopamine is not A parasympathetic neurotransmitter. For example, a low dose dopamine dilates renal artery, increasing kidney perfusion. A mid-dose stimulates b 2 receptors as well, resulting in dilation of skeletal bed BV's to decrease systemic resistance. While high dose stimulate a 1 (as does epinephrine or adrenaline) receptors and blood vessels constrict, resulting in an overall increased blood pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Alon, I would strongly suggest that you Email your comments to the author, Janice Walton Hadlock directly. In the interest of understanding the dynamics of which we speak, it would behoove you to address the them to her rather than me. Her Email address is: pdinfo Hi Yehuda I am reading the book and have to make a comments. She states that neurologists state that dopamine is a sedative neurotransmitter and that only now they are waking up to the truth of it being a stimulate. Well i have news for her. The association of dopamine and excitation has been know for very long time, ever since thorazine has been used to treat schizophrenia. Second the effects of dopamine in PD have nothing to do with peripheral actions on muscles and therefore i do not understand why she is drawing these conclusions regarding medical hypothesis. Dopamine is used to increase blood pressure, thorazine a dopamine antagonist is one of the most powerful sedatives we have. She states dopamine increases during the night only in mice well i have news for her regarding this as well. The activity of dopaminergic neurons has circadian variation. Dopamine production increases through the night with each cycle of REM sleep (in humans). The activity at the nigrostriatal terminals is maximal in the early morning. This nocturnal variation is more marked in young children and decreases with age. Dopamine activity in nigrostriatal terminals declines further during the course of the day (as well as with increasing age), exacerbating symptoms toward evening and with increasing age. She states: PD has no genetic contributions: well Dopamine is produced from tyrosine by the action of TH, which uses BH4 as a cofactor. The first rate-limiting step for BH4 synthesis is GCH. This gene in humans contains 6 exons, and various mutations have been described. These mutations result in markedly reduced GCH values (2-20%), with a resultant decrease in dopamine content. She also states: " Parkinson's does not appear when dopamine levels are too low. Parkinson's appears when the adrenals become so exhausted that they can no longer mask the damage set in motion by the unhealed injury, damage that includes a hibernating dopamine system. When the exhausted adrenals can no longer mask the problems, the physical damage, including dopamine dormancy, is exposed " . Why then using fMRI, PATs, and postmortems clearly show the involvement of the dopamenegic systems? Also adrenal exhaustion is easily measured does she has any such measurements? As i continue to read i will have more comments. Its hard for me to believe that having " cured " 200 cases of PD has not received much more mainstream exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Yehuda She states Any of us might know of someone who has performed an impossible action such as fleeing a maniac by running a mile on a broken leg, or winning an eighteen mile bicycle race with a broken collarbone. >>>>This is know as stress analgesia and is more do to WDR receptors which are more NMDA related than adrenaline. Sure the sympathetic system is activated but the analgesic effects are related to above more than adrenaline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Yehuda She states: A fascinating study on brain function and susceptibility to addiction in male primates who become alpha males suggests that their brain switches from dopamine system -dominant to adrenaline system-dominant. They also switch from addictable to non-addictable. Even if the primate is supplied with dopamine-enhancing drugs, his behavior and brain patterns remain those of an adrenaline-dominant alpha male. See: Nature Neuroscience 5(2): 169-174, 2002, Mike Nader. >>>>>I strongly suggest you read the article your self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Yehuda While she says " The shift in social standing to an alpha position creates the neurological shift towards the adrenaline system that is necessary to maintain constant vigilance, wariness, and an increase in physical strength. This point is very important to keep in mind for our discussion of Parkinson's disease. " The study actually states: " Whereas the monkeys did not differ during individual housing, social housing increased the amount or availability of dopamine D2 receptors in dominant monkeys and produced no change in subordinate monkeys. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 The dopamine system, and dopamine itself (in a healthy person), is already up and ready to go at all times; it is only inhibited to the extent that adrenaline systems are being used instead >>>>>Why then all stimulants and drugs such as bupropion are both dopaminergic and adrenergic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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