Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Zev and all, This person is actually starting to get her appetite back and eating a little better. She has a long row to hoe, and we're starting with bu zhong yi qi tang with modifications. Thanks for your thoughts. Frances Gander Athens, Ohio >Bu zhong yi qi tang is definitely a supplementing prescription, so what >does it mean to not be 'tonifying' at this point? Complex cases >require concurrent supplementation and drainage, addressing all the >patterns at hand, so there is nothing wrong with what you propose. Bu >zhong yi qi tang modified is a very good starting point. . . .you may >want to examine the work of Li Dong-yuan, the author of this >prescription, for a deeper analysis of the complex patterns so many of >our patients present. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Dear Frances, If I may humbly offer a thought or two... There is a phenomenon that you will notice if you go to the local health food store: Just casually ask shoppers there who are spending literally hundreds of dollars (or is it just in LA?) on vitamins and other supplements to show you their tongues and pulses. If they are thin, they will invariably have a red or dusky tongue with no coating or a dry yellow coating. Their pulses will probably be thready and rapid or weak. They generally appear exhausted and/or wired. Yet they keep coming back and keeping the health food stores flourishing! My take is that all of the supplements are further aggravating and already yin deficient situation. Just like with addicts, who are ALL yin deficient, these people are usually severely stomach as well as possibly heart and lung yin deficient, depending on the individual. I strongly feel that there are two major steps which need to be taken simultaneously, remove that which is harmful and tonify which with that which is indicated and appropriate. Ask her for permission to allow you to become the general of her team and to consider stopping taking most if not all of her vitamins. Second, if she's not already doing it, consider supporting her GI tract and the absorption of nutrients, by having her take a refrigerated vegetarian source of a potent pro-biotic formula, as well as for support, as she heals, taking betaine HcL to support protein absorption and digestive enzymes to support absorption of fats and carbs. Have her consider possible food allergies, but don't do blood or scratch test as they are not very accurate. Allergies generally manifest in one of 5 ways: dermatitis, GI symptoms, upper-respiratory symptoms, fibromyalgic symptoms or brain symptoms. Have her examine herself if she notices any worsening or feels worse after eating. If so, have her check her pulse before and after eating a suspected allergen for 15 seconds. If it is even slightly faster, then to confirm, have her eliminate it for 72 hours and see if she feels better. Having pretty much cleansed it from her system, have her then eat it again, and if there is indeed an allergy, the reaction will be pretty obvious. Finally, IMHO, tonify yin, even though she doesn't show signs of kd yin deficiency, as I mentioned initially, the certainly is stomach yin deficiency as well as obviously concurrent spleen qi deficiency. I would definitely consider sheng mai san as a starting point. Sincerely, Yehuda Zev and all, This person is actually starting to get her appetite back and eating a little better. She has a long row to hoe, and we're starting with bu zhong yi qi tang with modifications. Thanks for your thoughts. Frances Gander Athens, Ohio Marnae, Important consideration about parasites. She's had Great Smokie lab tests for parasites and they're negative. As I mentioned, she runs to a lot of docs and healers and has been diagnosed up the wazoo. Found out she was eating food bars with coconut, nuts, and seeds, taking handfuls of vitamins, drinking a metagenics nutritional, and not eating meals. Frances Gander Athens, Ohio 740-797-9297 >Have you thought about the possibility of parasites? I have a very similar >case of a woman who has had 3 bouts of parasites in the past several years >and the other problems that go with undiagnosed parasites are very similar >to what you are describing. > >Marnae > Alon said >There are metal clips on >her femoral artery.. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This sounds kind strange. What do you mean by metal >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >clips. Did she have stenosis? Clips sound too close to clemps which >would make no sense. > >Alon > Alon, Perhaps 'stenosis' is what she meant. The purpose was to block blood supply to the fibroid so it would shrink and was in lieu of a hysterectomy. Frances >the following case: >> > >> > 49 year old woman, 5'10 " , 95 lbs. looks emaciated >> > no appetite, ashen complexion, flat voice, extreme fatigue,irritability > > >>> > Has felt sick most of the time since she was 28 >>> > Tongue: long dusky body with red tip, thin dry white fur, slight scallops >> >> >>> > Insomnia usually but has been sleeping better since receiving acupuncture >> >> >>> > Stool is light color, formed but not dry, floating, small amount & not >> >> >>> > regular >>> > Pulses are thready and feel knotted or tight in heart and lung positions. >> >> >>> > Skin feels cool and clammy. >>> > Long history of depression and running to various physicians. >>> > Diagnosis of CFIDS in '78, '94; '97 Eppstein-Barre. She has taken a lot >> >> >>> > of antibiotics over the years. >>> > She recently independently weaned herself off clonopin and isstill >> >> >>> > taking neurontin 1200 mg and doxipin 10 mg. Wants to be off those, too. >> >> >>> > Lost job in 2000. Lives with ex-boyfriend and is seeing a >>> > psychotherapist and trying to put her life together. Too weak to do >> >> >>> > much about it. >>> > 2000: surgery: uterine artery embolism to seal off blood supply to 10 cm >> >> >>> > fibroid (alternative to hysterectomy). It shrunk to 4 cm. After this >> >> >>> > surgery her legs have been weak and she can't walk very far. Feels weak >> >> >>> > and heart pounds on slightest exertion. There are metal clips on her >> >> >>> > femoral artery.. >>> > Comes to my taiji class and lately sits and watches. Legs feelweak. >> >> >>> > Has migraines premenstrually and at other times, takes Maxil for migraines. >> >> >>> > Menses are heavy, some clots, regular every 24 days. >>> > No libido >>> > Knee pain not helped with prolotherapy, osteopathic manipulation, >>> > acupuncture, or electrostim. No back pain. >>> > I find deficient qi and stagnant blood, liver qi depression. >>> > Bu zhong yi qi tang seems a good place to start, >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Yet they keep coming back and keeping the health food stores flourishing! My take is that all of the supplements are further aggravating and already yin deficient situation. Just like with addicts, who are ALL yin deficient, these people are usually severely stomach as well as possibly heart and lung yin deficient, depending on the individual. >>>>>>>>Yehuda Your statement here shows the dangers of assumption and why we must understand the epidemiology of any medical condition we are trying to study. The fact that these people even enter the health food store may be due to their poor health and thus their tongues. Just because one can then make assumptions based on the TCM idea that vitamin are hot is a typical self reinforcing thinking. And by the way i have seen plenty of vitamin popping patients with swollen pale tongues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Roger, Yehuda, I couldn't agree more. Diet is one of the foundations of good medicine, Chinese or otherwise. I also am not a fan of supplements, and prefer food-based extracts, if it all, in lieu of proper diet. I also realize that people are often slow to change without a major impetus such as catastrophic illness. Sad but true. On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:48 PM, rw2 wrote: > > Yehuda, > > It's good to see another TCM practioner take diet seriously. I > routinely do the following for almost all of my clients: > > If they are taking more than occasional vitamins, I ask them > to quit for a few weeks to see how they do. In a surprising number of > cases, symptoms disappear. A lot of vitamins contain chemical > solvents, heavy metals, and even Aspartame! The chemical solvents > might be likely responsible for the Yin Deficiencies you are > observing, as well as inappropriately high doses of vitamins. I had > one client who had persistent angina-like symptoms that disappeared > after stopping her B-vitamin. > I often recommend probiotics - American don't get enough > bacteria compared to most traditional cultures. My favorite is > traditional salt-fermented sauerkraut - be sure its not pasteurized. > I always consider food allergies and suggest dietary changes. > If the diet is poor, I don't even give herbs without having the client > make diet changes for a week or two. Without doing it in this > sequence, its like a scientific experiment in which too many variables > change at once - nothing but confusion. > > Roger > > > > If all TCM practitioners did this, a lot of seemingly intractable > cases might start clearing up. > > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist > contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ > Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA > Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > > >> Yehuda L Frischman < >> Re: 49-year-old woman >> >> Dear Frances, >> >> If I may humbly offer a thought or two... There is a phenomenon that >> you >> will notice if you go to the local health food store: Just casually >> ask >> shoppers there who are spending literally hundreds of dollars (or is >> it >> just in LA?) on vitamins and other supplements to show you their >> tongues >> and pulses. If they are thin, they will invariably have a red or >> dusky >> tongue with no coating or a dry yellow coating. Their pulses will >> probably be thready and rapid or weak. They generally appear >> exhausted >> and/or wired. Yet they keep coming back and keeping the health food >> stores flourishing! My take is that all of the supplements are >> further >> aggravating and already yin deficient situation. Just like with >> addicts, >> who are ALL yin deficient, these people are usually severely stomach >> as >> well as possibly heart and lung yin deficient, depending on the >> individual. >> >> I strongly feel that there are two major steps which need to be taken >> simultaneously, remove that which is harmful and tonify which with >> that >> which is indicated and appropriate. Ask her for permission to allow >> you >> to become the general of her team and to consider stopping taking >> most if >> not all of her vitamins. Second, if she's not already doing it, >> consider >> supporting her GI tract and the absorption of nutrients, by having her >> take a refrigerated vegetarian source of a potent pro-biotic formula, >> as >> well as for support, as she heals, taking betaine HcL to support >> protein >> absorption and digestive enzymes to support absorption of fats and >> carbs. >> Have her consider possible food allergies, but don't do blood or >> scratch >> test as they are not very accurate. Allergies generally manifest in >> one >> of 5 ways: dermatitis, GI symptoms, upper-respiratory symptoms, >> fibromyalgic symptoms or brain symptoms. Have her examine herself if >> she >> notices any worsening or feels worse after eating. > > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist > contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ > Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA > Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Yehuda, It's good to see another TCM practioner take diet seriously. I routinely do the following for almost all of my clients: If they are taking more than occasional vitamins, I ask them to quit for a few weeks to see how they do. In a surprising number of cases, symptoms disappear. A lot of vitamins contain chemical solvents, heavy metals, and even Aspartame! The chemical solvents might be likely responsible for the Yin Deficiencies you are observing, as well as inappropriately high doses of vitamins. I had one client who had persistent angina-like symptoms that disappeared after stopping her B-vitamin. I often recommend probiotics - American don't get enough bacteria compared to most traditional cultures. My favorite is traditional salt-fermented sauerkraut - be sure its not pasteurized. I always consider food allergies and suggest dietary changes. If the diet is poor, I don't even give herbs without having the client make diet changes for a week or two. Without doing it in this sequence, its like a scientific experiment in which too many variables change at once - nothing but confusion. Roger If all TCM practitioners did this, a lot of seemingly intractable cases might start clearing up. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org >Yehuda L Frischman < >Re: 49-year-old woman > >Dear Frances, > >If I may humbly offer a thought or two... There is a phenomenon that you >will notice if you go to the local health food store: Just casually ask >shoppers there who are spending literally hundreds of dollars (or is it >just in LA?) on vitamins and other supplements to show you their tongues >and pulses. If they are thin, they will invariably have a red or dusky >tongue with no coating or a dry yellow coating. Their pulses will >probably be thready and rapid or weak. They generally appear exhausted >and/or wired. Yet they keep coming back and keeping the health food >stores flourishing! My take is that all of the supplements are further >aggravating and already yin deficient situation. Just like with addicts, >who are ALL yin deficient, these people are usually severely stomach as >well as possibly heart and lung yin deficient, depending on the >individual. > >I strongly feel that there are two major steps which need to be taken >simultaneously, remove that which is harmful and tonify which with that >which is indicated and appropriate. Ask her for permission to allow you >to become the general of her team and to consider stopping taking most if >not all of her vitamins. Second, if she's not already doing it, consider >supporting her GI tract and the absorption of nutrients, by having her >take a refrigerated vegetarian source of a potent pro-biotic formula, as >well as for support, as she heals, taking betaine HcL to support protein >absorption and digestive enzymes to support absorption of fats and carbs. > Have her consider possible food allergies, but don't do blood or scratch >test as they are not very accurate. Allergies generally manifest in one >of 5 ways: dermatitis, GI symptoms, upper-respiratory symptoms, >fibromyalgic symptoms or brain symptoms. Have her examine herself if she >notices any worsening or feels worse after eating. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 > > rw2 [rw2] > Monday, March 07, 2005 1:49 PM > > Re: 49-year-old woman > > > Yehuda, > > It's good to see another TCM practioner take diet seriously. I routinely > do the following for almost all of my clients: > > If they are taking more than occasional vitamins, I ask them to > quit for a few weeks to see how they do. In a surprising number of cases, > symptoms disappear. A lot of vitamins contain chemical solvents, heavy > metals, and even Aspartame! The chemical solvents might be likely > responsible for the Yin Deficiencies you are observing, as well as > inappropriately high doses of vitamins. I had one client who had > persistent angina-like symptoms that disappeared after stopping her B- > vitamin. > I often recommend probiotics - American don't get enough bacteria > compared to most traditional cultures. My favorite is traditional salt- > fermented sauerkraut - be sure its not pasteurized. > I always consider food allergies and suggest dietary changes. [Jason] Roger, What else do you do for food allergies (sensitivities) besides elimination? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Dear Jason, Two phenomena I have noticed with those many who have a lot of food allergies: first, they are almost all deficient (come to think of it, I can't recall anyone I've seen with allergies who wasn't!), and second, they all have some manifestation of liver qi stagnation. What I have found is that as their livers soften and the deficiencies are gradually resolved, amazingly, the number of food allergies drops remarkably. Think about it: what is an allergy, but an auto-immune reaction to a normally benign food, engendering a inflammatory response. By eliminating the provocative food, one gives the liver a chance to rest and heal, by supplimenting the deficiency the " rawness " and reactivity of the body goes down, and as a result the reactivity threshold rises. A book to also check out is " The Food Allergy Cure " by Ellen Cutler (a chiropracter). isbn 0-609-60639-5. Some interesting stuff, mostly written for laypeople, but she uses AK diagnostically and therapeutically as well as enzymes and has had alot of success in desensitization. All the best, Yehuda On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:34:45 -0700 " " writes: > > > > > > > rw2 [rw2] > > Monday, March 07, 2005 1:49 PM > > > > Re: 49-year-old woman > > > > > > Yehuda, > > > > It's good to see another TCM practioner take diet seriously. I > routinely > > do the following for almost all of my clients: > > > > If they are taking more than occasional vitamins, I ask > them to > > quit for a few weeks to see how they do. In a surprising number of > cases, > > symptoms disappear. A lot of vitamins contain chemical solvents, > heavy > > metals, and even Aspartame! The chemical solvents might be likely > > responsible for the Yin Deficiencies you are observing, as well as > > inappropriately high doses of vitamins. I had one client who had > > persistent angina-like symptoms that disappeared after stopping > her B- > > vitamin. > > I often recommend probiotics - American don't get enough > bacteria > > compared to most traditional cultures. My favorite is traditional > salt- > > fermented sauerkraut - be sure its not pasteurized. > > I always consider food allergies and suggest dietary > changes. > [Jason] > Roger, > > What else do you do for food allergies (sensitivities) besides > elimination? > > -Jason > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 > > Yehuda L Frischman [] > Friday, March 11, 2005 1:24 AM > > Re: Re: 49-year-old woman > > > Dear Jason, > > Two phenomena I have noticed with those many who have a lot of food > allergies: first, they are almost all deficient (come to think of it, I > can't recall anyone I've seen with allergies who wasn't!), and second, > they all have some manifestation of liver qi stagnation. What I have > found is that as their livers soften and the deficiencies are gradually > resolved, amazingly, the number of food allergies drops remarkably. > Think about it: what is an allergy, but an auto-immune reaction to a > normally benign food, engendering a inflammatory response. By > eliminating the provocative food, one gives the liver a chance to rest > and heal, by supplimenting the deficiency the " rawness " and reactivity of > the body goes down, and as a result the reactivity threshold rises. [Jason] I am wondering if you are talking about food sensitivities vs. allergies... I don't think allergies are that easy... I am working with a 7 year-old boy who has REAL allergies as well as much sensitivities. If he eats the wrong foods he is in the hospital. If you have had good success I would like to hear what you have done, vs. just supplementing the deficiency and eliminating the foods... (he hasn't eaten the foods for a couple of years...) But I always would like to see anything about food sensitivities that you have from a CM perspective. Thanx, -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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