thirty years

[Guest guest]

People really need to come to terms with the fact that chinese

herbology is a distinct profession that overlaps with, but is not

merely part of, Oriental Medicine. Andnothing you can ever say or do

will change this. The right to practice this modality without a

license is enshrined in British common law, the basis of our court

system. It is completely analogous to homeopathy, which is a distinct

modality that is practiced by various different persons (MD, ND, DC,

layperson). In fact, this right is held so dear even in hyperregulated

Europe, that traditional herbalists in the EU are largely exempt from

CODEX rules about natural medicines. In addition, this is also the way

it has been since ancient times in China. Being an herbalist did not

mean one was also a needler and a bodyworker. In fact, it likely meant

you were not (according to Unschuld,Needham, Sivin, Scheid, Farquhar,

others).

 

There has never been a profession of eclectic OM and that remains so to

this day. Modern PRC schools train either in herbs or acupuncture, not

both. And literate lay herbalists still do much of the treatment in

Taiwan and other parts of Asia (as Eric Brand will confirm). In fact,

I would wager far more Americans (albeit mostly of asian descent) get

their herbs from a chinese herb shop than from L.Ac.'s. The fact that

two systems of medicine develop in the same culture does not make them

part of the same field. That would be akin to a alien landing in 21st

century America and deciding that American Medicine includes

homeopathy, naturopathy, etc. But in fact, these are all recognized as

distinct and only sometimes overlapping studies. Institutionalized OM

pretty much exists for one reason and one reason only - there was no

way that any state was ever going to let white kids stick metal pins in

peoples bodies and call it medicine without setting up elaborate

safeguards. Safeguards that California legislators of all political

persuasions have said are not necessary for the practice of herbology.

Here is what Section 1, part c of SB577 says,

 

" © The Legislature intends, by enactment of this act, to allow access

by California residents to complementary and alternative health care

practitioners who are not providing services that require medical

training and credentials. The Legislature further finds that these

nonmedical complementary and alternative services do not pose a known

risk to the health and safety of California residents, and that

restricting access to those services due to technical violations of the

Medical Practice Act is not warranted. "

 

In addition, form Section 2, where the prohibitions are laid out. If

it is not listed below, than you can do it in CA, regardless if someone

with a license can also do it. That would clearly include all forms of

herbology.

" (1) Conducts surgery or any other procedure on another person that

punctures the skin or harmfully invades the body.

 

(2) Administers or prescribes x-ray radiation to another person.

 

(3) Prescribes or administers legend drugs or controlled substances to

another person.

 

(4) Recommends the discontinuance of legend drugs or controlled

substances prescribed by an appropriately licensed practitioner.

 

(5) Willfully diagnoses and treats a physical or mental condition of

any person under circumstances or conditions that cause or create risk

of great bodily harm, serious physical or mental illness, or death.

 

(6) Sets fractures.

 

(7) Treats lacerations or abrasions through electrotherapy.

 

(8) Holds out, states, indicates, advertises, or implies to a client or

prospective client that he or she is a physician, a surgeon, or a

physician and surgeon. "

 

This trend is towards this type of legislation, not away from it. Now

I guess the feds could make all herbs controlled substances, but anyone

who thinks that will ever happen is crazy. In fact, there is a good

chance the ephedra ban will be lifted and Republicans will make it

happen. So why don't we herbalists just recognize some of these folks

as our peers and support voluntary certification (as mandatory will

never be required under SB577). And if some acupuncturists don't like

it, waah, waah, waah. Stop wasting our time with your paternalism in

the form of state as big daddy. If you like being regulated, then live

your life in that bubble. There is no reason the rest of us should not

be allowed to take our chances. The government can easily sanction

regulated products and services, yet still allow willing citizens to

buy unregulated ones if they please. that goes on all the time

already, whenever you have an unlicensed handyman do some work around

your house. As long as people know what they are getting themselves

into, why should the government be involved? I can choose an L.Ac.

from a government list or an herbalist who is not on one. See my blog

on Libertarianism and the information age for more on why there is no

longer any need for government oversight of most matters and no excuse

for not being able to find out enough about anything to make an

informed decision for any educated person who can read.

 

http://www..org/2005/02/libertarianism-and-

information-age.html

 

And for those who cannot, there will always be big brother.

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Todd and all,

 

I have been listening in on this discussion quietly. How Chinese

medicine, or what in the PRC has been coined “TCM” is practiced in

China today and how practitioners are trained on either a

herbal/pharmaceutical, acupuncture or tui na track is an accepted status

quo. However, it seems to be in my limited knowledge of the Chinese

medical classics, that throughout the ages the great doctors were

knowledgeable, and DID practice eclectic medicine, applying all three

modalities as well as nutrition and exercise/qi gong medicine toward to

pursuit of balance and wellness. (Please scholars correct me if I am

wrong!) May I even be so bold as to suggest that being unburdoned by the

limitations of “the system” in China, we practitioners and students of

these ancient and modern healing modalities may become more attuned to

the spirit of the ancients and by integrating Western diagnostic tools,

we enhance that spirit. This, I feel could be, and SHOULD be where

additional required hours should be applied, toward gaining a stronger

knowledge of modern diagnostic tools. I know that perhaps you are

thinking that this is old territory rehashed, but it disturbs me to

consider how traditional medicine is studied in China as what is correct

and what we must do. Just as a personal observation, I must say that I

was singularly unimpressed with Asian co-students of mine while in

school. I would have expected a reverence for tradition and a greater

sense of “thinking” as a Chinese practitioner would. Yet, generally I

found them to be superficial and flippant imitators of Western

culture. In an era when Western allopathic medicine promotes greater

and greater micro-compartmentalization and specialization, is that not

also the direction that the Chinese are taking? Why not allow our niche

to develop in a unique and different direction?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

herbology is a distinct profession that overlaps with, but is not

merely part of, Oriental Medicine. Andnothing you can ever say or do

will change this. The right to practice this modality without a

license is enshrined in British common law, the basis of our court

system. It is completely analogous to homeopathy, which is a distinct

modality that is practiced by various different persons (MD, ND, DC,

layperson). In fact, this right is held so dear even in hyperregulated

Europe, that traditional herbalists in the EU are largely exempt from

CODEX rules about natural medicines. In addition, this is also the way

it has been since ancient times in China. Being an herbalist did not

mean one was also a needler and a bodyworker. In fact, it likely meant

you were not (according to Unschuld,Needham, Sivin, Scheid, Farquhar,

others).

 

There has never been a profession of eclectic OM and that remains so to

this day. Modern PRC schools train either in herbs or acupuncture, not

both. And literate lay herbalists still do much of the treatment in

Taiwan and other parts of Asia (as Eric Brand will confirm). In fact,

I would wager far more Americans (albeit mostly of asian descent) get

their herbs from a chinese herb shop than from L.Ac.'s. The fact that

two systems of medicine develop in the same culture does not make them

part of the same field. That would be akin to a alien landing in 21st

century America and deciding that American Medicine includes

homeopathy, naturopathy, etc. But in fact, these are all recognized as

distinct and only sometimes overlapping studies. Institutionalized OM

pretty much exists for one reason and one reason only - there was no

way that any state was ever going to let white kids stick metal pins in

peoples bodies and call it medicine without setting up elaborate

safeguards. Safeguards that California legislators of all political

persuasions have said are not necessary for the practice of herbology.

Here is what Section 1, part c of SB577 says,

 

" © The Legislature intends, by enactment of this act, to allow access

by California residents to complementary and alternative health care

practitioners who are not providing services that require medical

training and credentials. The Legislature further finds that these

nonmedical complementary and alternative services do not pose a known

risk to the health and safety of California residents, and that

restricting access to those services due to technical violations of the

Medical Practice Act is not warranted. "

 

In addition, form Section 2, where the prohibitions are laid out. If

it is not listed below, than you can do it in CA, regardless if someone

with a license can also do it. That would clearly include all forms of

herbology.

" (1) Conducts surgery or any other procedure on another person that

punctures the skin or harmfully invades the body.

 

(2) Administers or prescribes x-ray radiation to another person.

 

(3) Prescribes or administers legend drugs or controlled substances to

another person.

 

(4) Recommends the discontinuance of legend drugs or controlled

substances prescribed by an appropriately licensed practitioner.

 

(5) Willfully diagnoses and treats a physical or mental condition of

any person under circumstances or conditions that cause or create risk

of great bodily harm, serious physical or mental illness, or death.

 

(6) Sets fractures.

 

(7) Treats lacerations or abrasions through electrotherapy.

 

(8) Holds out, states, indicates, advertises, or implies to a client or

prospective client that he or she is a physician, a surgeon, or a

physician and surgeon. "

 

This trend is towards this type of legislation, not away from it. Now

I guess the feds could make all herbs controlled substances, but anyone

who thinks that will ever happen is crazy. In fact, there is a good

chance the ephedra ban will be lifted and Republicans will make it

happen. So why don't we herbalists just recognize some of these folks

as our peers and support voluntary certification (as mandatory will

never be required under SB577). And if some acupuncturists don't like

it, waah, waah, waah. Stop wasting our time with your paternalism in

the form of state as big daddy. If you like being regulated, then live

your life in that bubble. There is no reason the rest of us should not

be allowed to take our chances. The government can easily sanction

regulated products and services, yet still allow willing citizens to

buy unregulated ones if they please. that goes on all the time

already, whenever you have an unlicensed handyman do some work around

your house. As long as people know what they are getting themselves

into, why should the government be involved? I can choose an L.Ac.

from a government list or an herbalist who is not on one. See my blog

on Libertarianism and the information age for more on why there is no

longer any need for government oversight of most matters and no excuse

for not being able to find out enough about anything to make an

informed decision for any educated person who can read.

 

http://www..org/2005/02/libertarianism-and-

information-age.html

 

And for those who cannot, there will always be big brother.

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

and DID practice eclectic medicine, applying all three

modalities as well as nutrition and exercise/qi gong medicine toward to

pursuit of balance and wellness. (Please scholars correct me if I am

wrong!) May I even be so bold as to suggest that being unburdoned by the

limitations of " the system " in China,

>>>>>Including Li dong for those who worship him

 

[Guest guest]

In addition, form Section 2, where the prohibitions are laid out. If

it is not listed below, than you can do it in CA, regardless if someone

with a license can also do it. That would clearly include all forms of

herbology.

" (1) Conducts surgery or any other procedure on another person that

punctures the skin or harmfully invades the body.

 

(2) Administers or prescribes x-ray radiation to another person.

 

(3) Prescribes or administers legend drugs or controlled substances to

another person.

 

(4) Recommends the discontinuance of legend drugs or controlled

substances prescribed by an appropriately licensed practitioner.

 

(5) Willfully diagnoses and treats a physical or mental condition of

any person under circumstances or conditions that cause or create risk

of great bodily harm, serious physical or mental illness, or death.

 

(6) Sets fractures.

 

(7) Treats lacerations or abrasions through electrotherapy.

 

(8) Holds out, states, indicates, advertises, or implies to a client or

prospective client that he or she is a physician, a surgeon, or a

physician and surgeon. "

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if we go here then why not just practice under privet club setting and

then you can do what ever you want including all the above probations

 

[Guest guest]

For those who like to " guess " rather than go there and see or simply ask

around for a China graduated doctor, here is a place to visit:

http://www.wordfocus.com/word-act-blindmen.html

>>>>>>

Dan,even then it all too easy to see what one wants to see

 

[Guest guest]

The right to practice this modality without a

license is enshrined in British common law, the basis of our court

system.

>>>>No its not, it because you are not practicing any medicine but selling

food.As soon as you cross over its illegal.Anyone can open a grocery store

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There has never been a profession of eclectic OM and that remains so to

>this day

Tell that to the lineage holders. This shows me more and more the need for

better archaeological and anthropological data in our training.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

[Guest guest]

 

 

Here is a breakdown of all the different factors that are involved in

unnecessary inflation in college and professional education, especially relevant

to costs in learning Chinese herbology:

 

 

The following comparisons are based on what we (RMHI) charge for tuition vs.

what typical TCM colleges charge. Before some of you protest that that is

comparing apples and oranges, note that we've had quite a few TCM-college

graduates and even some faculty enroll in our courses to fill in the gaps of

their own training. Our current fees: about $7,000 for a program that takes a

typical student about 3 years, although it is open-ended as far as time for

completion - we can do this because a lot of the more routine things, like

memorizing syndrome definitions, herbs, and formulas and taking exams are fully

automated by software. Costs at typical TCM colleges: I believe Todd mentioned

figures of $80,000-$100,000.

 

 

Here's how we save huge amounts of money:

 

I teach out of my home-office. No added expenses for mortgage of school-office

buildings and maintenance. This is how many herbalists in this country have

passed on their knowledge for centuries. No gleeming edifices, monuments to

conspicuous consumption, pseudo-Greek columns, or stately collegiate bell towers

are necessary. I know some herbalists who house their classes and students in

teepees.

 

We spend zero dollars on lobbying the state legislature to give special benefits

to our profession, paying fees to accrediting organizations, or other license or

regulatory fees. Organized as a completely independent private trust, we receive

no benefits from the state, and operate entirely as a matter of common law right

- freedom of speech and the freedom to communicate knowledge.

 

We have no army of bureaucrats running our school. All bureaucrats have been

replaced by relational databases on a Macintosh G3 computer. Electron, our cat,

occasionally watches over it to check things are running smoothly.

 

We are very selective about our students. All can read well; all can think; all

must demonstrate evidence of self-motivation in their applications for

admission.

That frees up an incredible amount of resources. I can then give these people

large amounts of information and some computer software, and tell them to learn

the material on their own, supplemented by online discussion groups for

questions and comments. Most of the herbalists in the history of America and

Europe were largely taught by a combination of self-study and clinical

apprenticeships. We are merely continuing this tradition and allowing people to

gain recognition by participating in it.

Since we do not waste hundreds of hours on boring rote-memorization classes, but

instead have replaced this with computer software - more money saved.

 

We use computer simulations to mimic the types of ambiguous distinctions a

practitioner has to make every day. (How many of your cases match textbook

patterns exactly?) Instead of putting students into a clinic right away, where

they may have to wait years to see exotic or dangerous situations (Xue-level

Heat, Collapse of Yang, ambigous combinations of symptoms and signs), we use

computer simulations that challenge students to recognize and handle these

situations.

 

We use the valuble time where students and instructors meet in class to work on

live cases - a hybrid between seminar and clinic. All the theory stuff should be

handled in the computerized games/exams and computer simulations, so that

students come to class already knowing the theory. All our students must submit

evidence of having completed the software exercises before coming to seminars.

They will have already learned basic theory, syndromes (patterns), and herbs

beforehand.

 

Since all of our students and graduates learn the routine and rote-memorization

aspects of herbology on their own time, why should we charge them for this? We

don't. They save money.

 

Another major recent factor in inflation of educational costs has been the easy

Greenspan-money of the last decade. Rampant speculation in Internet stocks has

now been replaced by speculation in real estate and anything else that people

perceive has value. Instead of putting only 1% down on a speculative option in

currencies, bonds, or stocks, people are speculating in educational credentials.

Students can go to the bank or apply for educational loans with no money down

and with little scrutiny of whether they will be able to pay back the loans,

just like buying stocks on no or low margin in the late 1920's. As in any

market, easy money bids up the price of everything. When the easy-credit of the

Greenspan years dries up, the educational market may pop just like the dot-com

bubble in 2000. We are careful to screen out student applicants who think that

getting an herbology education is like speculating in stocks - you don't get a

certificate of completion just because you did your time and paid the purchase

price.

 

We don't get involved in the student loan game, which would add to

administrative overhead and ultimately only add to all students' tuition fees.

Pay as you go, or in a very small number of cases of academic merit, straight

scholarships.

 

Our school is an insignificant part of the market, so what we do should affect

other schools very little. The American educational system has gotten so bad

that very few potential students are really suitable candidates for admission to

a program like ours - we have increased our foreign student enrollment to

compensate. I'm not in this to make lots of money. I do it because it's just my

thing. Perhaps I'm doing this out a conviction to preserve and to create

something of value that may survive the coming collapse.

 

 

Many years ago I worked in a lab that did a lot of research for NASA; this is

where I first learned a bit about the art of computer simulations both for

medical physiology and for training pilots of everything from jets to space

stations. Top medical schools are already making extensive use of computer

simulations in training. Instructors should be chosen for their ability to think

on their feet and help students understand how to work through real clinical

cases. All of the other mundane aspects of learning facts and theory can be done

better and more thoroughly by computer software - also, a lot more fun if you

design them like a series of games.

 

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

 

>

>and for whoever thinks the disparity between the cost of going to PCOM

>or doing an apprenticeship has anything to do with normal inflation

>over time better go back to economics 101. I have friends who spent

>15,000 to do a 2000 hour program at OCOM in the late eighties. Most of

>these folks are as good herbalists than most who do 3500 hours today.

>The increased costs of education are clearly linked to padding of the

>curriculum with unnecessary classes (keep in mind all the anatomy,

>point location, techniques and clinical training in needling are not

>necessary to practice herbology and that was the topic of this post)

>and regulatory, political and institutional costs. A herbalist could

>most definitely be trained without all this extra stuff and also be

>trained in a private office. If you don't think this would decrease

>costs by 80-90%, you have either never seen a university budget or you

>can't do math or both. Again, not talking about acupuncture.

>>

>

>Chinese Herbs

>

 

 

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

[Guest guest]

>

> rw2 [rw2]

> Monday, March 07, 2005 4:12 PM

>

> Re: thirty years

>

>

>

>

> Here is a breakdown of all the different factors that are involved in

> unnecessary inflation in college and professional education, especially

> relevant to costs in learning Chinese herbology:

>

>

> The following comparisons are based on what we (RMHI) charge for tuition

> vs. what typical TCM colleges charge. Before some of you protest that that

> is comparing apples and oranges, note that we've had quite a few TCM-

> college graduates and even some faculty enroll in our courses to fill in

> the gaps of their own training. Our current fees: about $7,000 for a

> program that takes a typical student about 3 years, although it is open-

> ended as far as time for completion - we can do this because a lot of the

> more routine things, like memorizing syndrome definitions, herbs, and

> formulas and taking exams are fully automated by software. Costs at

> typical TCM colleges: I believe Todd mentioned figures of

$80,000-$100,000.

[Jason]

Where is this number from...? I think PCOM was about 34,000.

I am curious what you do for a clinic?

And can you sit for the NCAOM Herb Exam with your degree?

Just curious...

 

-Jason