TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

March 7, 2005

For those that are truly interested in what shape and form professional

TCM education now takes in China and how the two majors of acupuncture

and herbal medicine are separated to produce professionals in these two

modalitiies, I am supplying the following data from Guangzhou

University of TCM in 1995. The education of TCM professionals in China

is controlled by the SATCM and all university courses are structured

practically identically so the example structure presented here is for

all intents and purposes what you will find is the structure for

undergraduate education in ALL of China's TCM Universities. Guanngzhou,

along with Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and Chengdu form the " BIG 5 " in

terms of the standard of TCM University education in China.

I am hesitant to post any more on this topic (and even on this list) as

it is abundantly clear to me that one individual in particular on this

list has absolutely no interest in the truth, and would prefer to be an

armchair expert on all things TCM in China without ever having spent a

day in a chinese university or hospital setting. This person persists

in claiming that all I have to say on this matter is incorrect and that

I can't comprehend written english along with his generally dismissive

attitude towards all of my posts. I sincerely hope that from this point

on that this individual can show a little more respect for real data

(although they see statistics as conspiratorial) and first hand

experience; especially when they fail to produce either when dismissing

the information I post on this list...........

OK.....

The raw data is presented at the end of this post.

Firstly, I would like to note that every hour does not add up perfectly

in this data for reasons I assume are typos. However the data shows the

facts rather clearly IMO even if 1 or 2 hours have been lost in

transmission. The basic calculation of percentage hours included here

has been done by me and I am sure there are some errors; but I am

confident the message of the data speaks rather loudly by itself and I

have not attempted to manipulate the data to suit my previous posts or

positions.

Herbal Medicine majors undergo a total of 6633 face-to-face instruction

in their undergraduate degree training, while Acupuncture/Moxibustion

majors appear to undertake more at 6973 hours.

Approximately 46% (3056 hours) of the total contact hours of the

undergraduate degree level TCM education in China is spent in

internship in their major. Of the remaining 54% (3577 hours) education,

47% (1705 hours) is concerned specifically with TCM, 24% (858 hours) is

concerned with Western medical subjects and the remaining 29% involves

general and elective subjects.

When looked at more closely; the clinical practicum/internships in fact

consumes 64% of the total hours of TCM related training hours in the

undergraduate degrees in China. Incidentally, 3056 hours at a rate of 8

hours a day, 5-6 days a week translates to 64-76 weeks of intensive

clinical training in their major ONLY.

Of the 36% (1705 hours) of specifically TCM education remaining, some

of the basic introductory subjects are shared by both majors: TCM

history, Basic theory and Diagnostics, Science of Chinese materia

medica, Formulary of Chinese materia medica and Ancient Chinese medical

literature.

Differences are found at this basic level in that herbal medicine

majors do not study acupuncture points and meridian theory (sorry

Tom:P), but instead study more hours in zang-fu doctrine and TCM

etiology and pathology. Acupuncture majors in addition to the

acupuncture points and meridian theory courses, also study additional

hours in classical literature specifically related to acupuncture that

the herbal majors do not.

Much of the of the non-TCM Western Medical courses are shared, but it

should be noted that only the herbal medicine undergraduates receive

theoretical training in western diagnostics (126 hours) while the

acupuncture majors do not, instead they study chemistry and physics

(total of 132 hours).

Moving on to the clinically related subjects: both majors study Western

Internal Medicine, TCM Internal Medicine, TCM gynaecology and TCM

paediatrics. This data may be misleading on the surface as these

courses may in fact be specifically taught in terms of their major

(this is actually how I was educated as I took such clinical specialty

theory courses twice from the perspective of the different majors). ie.

TCM internal medicine may be taught in relation to acupuncture

treatment for acupuncture majors, whereas TCM internal medicine is

discussed in relation to herbal medicine treatment for herbal medicine

majors.

Beyond this however there is a large difference in clinical theory

training: Acupuncture majors study an additional 464 hours theory in

acupuncture manipulations and therapeutics and massage therapy. In

contrast, the herbal majors study an additional 566 hours in TCM

surgery, TCM traumatology, TCM opthamology, TCM otorhinolaryngology,

exogenous febrile diseases, seasonal febrile diseases and the Golden

Chamber text.

Herbal majors study a clinical theory subject on acupuncture of 90

hours and this appears to be the TOTAL of acupuncture education they

receive.

The total of 6800 hours for the following analysis is taken as a rather

rough average to compensate for the difference in the total hours in

the majors themselves i.e.. 6633 versus 6973 hours.

The hours common to both majors in the total degree period, including

the over 1000 hours of education in general subjects and electives, is

approximately 39% (2660/6800 hours). When the common hours are looked

at in terms of TCM related topics they share only 15% (1010/6800

hours). As noted above, these figures may be in fact even lower as they

include all the clinical theory subjects that may be in fact

specifically taught in terms of their major. If this is actually the

case, the actual shared TCM topics between both majors is further

reduced to reach only 8% (544/6800 hours).

When analyzing the numbers in terms of hours a herbal medicine major

studies acupuncture related topics; it is 1% (90/6633 hours) of the

total of their undergraduate degree education, or 2% (90/4761 hours) of

the TCM only related study hours. From the other direction, acupuncture

majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3% (218/6973 hours)

of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of TCM related study

hours.

Returning to the internship, this is undertaken only in ONE of the

degree majors ie. herbal medicine or acupuncture/massage......NOT both.

I am sure most of us would agree that the real crux of training in TCM

goes beyond book theory and is learnt by seeing real patients in real

trouble in the presence of an experienced doctor. They have no

substantial clinical training in the other discipline and OVER 95% of

their TCM theoretical and practical training is specifically in their

major!!

The other issue I feel is of importance when looking at the clinical

training in China is that the degree of exposure to patients and

conditions is simply phenomenal in the herbal medicine major when

compared to clinical training in the West. In contrast, when compared

to herbal medicine departments; acupuncture seemed to have a VERY

narrow scope of practice in the major hospitals I had exposure to.

There is certainly much to be said for the generally slower pace at

which patients are seen in the West which allows a far more in-depth

discussion of each case with ones mentor and the exposure to conditions

that are more our bread-and-butter as clinicians in the West. On the

other hand, seeing 50-100 cases each day, 5 days a week for 12 months

gives an exposure to conditions and patients that is simply unheard of

in most TCM education in the West. Obviously, a balance of both these

methods would probably be best for a student and the more inquisitive

learning style of many westerners.

It is on the basis of data such as presented in this post and my

experience in TCM University and hospital settings in China that I have

expressed opinions on this list suggesting that a current undergraduate

herbal medicine major is not trained sufficiently to practice

acupuncture as a healthcare professional (total 90 hours training in

this modality) and that acupuncture majors are not trained to a

professional level to practice herbal medicine (total of 218 hours

training in this modality).

This is NOT to say that SOME don't undertake further internships or

education AFTER their undergraduate studies to reach the level of

competent clinical practice in the other modality. These practitioners

who have actually pursued such graduate studies or clinical training

after their undergraduate education were not the subject of ANY of my

postings on this list contrary to the claims of some.

If anyone believes they can make an argument that a recent

undergraduate acupuncture major from China can practice herbal medicine

at a professional level considering the data presented here on living

human beings WITHOUT further post-graduate training and experience;

they simply hold a radically different view of what constitutes

competence and profession training.

Such an opinion would be saying, in essence, that an acupuncture major

can practice herbal medicine competently and professionally even-though

he has studied a total of 218 hours of herbal medicine and had no

clinical training in this modality and vice versa for a herbal medicine

major who only studies 90 hours of acupuncture theory.

It is certainly possible that things have change in the past 10 years

since this course was the norm; however, as the total degree length has

not changed; any change to incorporate more of the other modality would

necessitate a watering down of the particular major studies in a

proportional amount. Further, the educational structure presented here

is consistent with my understanding of the system as it was when I was

in China circa 2002 that formed the basis for my opinions and postings

regarding this topic previously.

Obviously some on this list hold a much shorter yardstick to what

constitutes a competent, professionally educated/trained herbalist

and/or acupuncturist than I or the Australian profession does. Perhaps

some are simply unaware of the facts regarding the education our modern

Chinese trained peers have and what they actually learnt, and yet

prefer to assume they have more training than is often the case simply

because they are Chinese or they use the modality without harming

patients in their clinic without considering the views of those who

have first hand experience to the contrary. Some will also persist in

holding this belief regardless of what the facts say to keep their

" your ok, I'm ok " , " anything goes " attitude to TCM to keep their world

view safe.

The Australian profession has recognised the facts presented here and

has taken steps to ensure a minimum standard in the education and/or

clinical experience for practitioners of these two modalities of

, regardless of whether they were trained in China,

Australia or Iceland. Interestingly, many of the individuals who have

pushed for and achieved these regulations and standards in Australia

are China-trained Chinese and have had major roles in establishing TCM

education at the University level in this country.

In essence, this means that in Australia, a graduate from China who

majored in Herbal Medicine can not become a member of a professional

association as an acupuncturist unless they have completed further

training in this specialty since graduation (and increasingly as more

states here introduce legislation; claim to practice acupuncture or

hold themselves out to be acupuncturists in any way). Same for the

reverse major in acupuncture. This is due to recognition of the fact

that studying one of these majors in China is not sufficient to

practice the other on patients as a professional.

The following data comes from an excellent study on TCM commissioned by

the Australian Government as part of its preparations for the

regulation of TCM in this country. It is entitled " Towards a Safer

Choice: The Practice of in Australia " . Since the time

this paper was published (late 1990's), Australia has re-structured its

TCM education to a level of independance, recognition, regulation and

" protection of title " to what is probably the highest standard outside

China.

This paper may be of interest to many of the academics, administrators

and teachers on this list and if interested, they can access most of

the paper here:-

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

Bachelor of Medicine, Guangzhou University of TCM, (specialising in

Chinese herbal medicine).

Subject Contact hours

TCM

TCM History 27

Introduction to TCM 32

Zhang-xiang Xue (Viscera-state doctrine of TCM) 72

TCM etiology and pathology 60

TCM diagnostics 72

Science of Chinese materia medica 144

Formulary of Chinese materia medica 90

Prevention and cure in TCM 63

Doctrines of various historic schools 70

Ancient Chinese medical literature 108

Western medicine

Anatomy 111

Histology & embryology 36

Physiology 90

Biochemistry 72

Microbiology 54

Parasitology 27

Pathology 90

Pharmacology 72

Fundamentals of diagnostics 126

Statistics 54

Clinical subjects

Western internal medicine 72

Surgery 54

TCM internal medicine 180

TCM surgery 108

TCM gynaecology 108

TCM paediatrics 77

TCM traumatology 72

TCM opthalmology 49

TCM otorhinolaryngology 49

Acupuncture 90

Exogenous febrile diseases 90

Seasonal febrile diseases 72

Golden Chamber text 126

General subjects

Political education 216

Moral education 108

Foreign languages 288

Physical education 144

Labour education 36

Electives (8 * 30 hrs) 240

Total subject hours 3577

Clinical practicum 3056

Total contact hours 6633

Table 8.4: Bachelor of Medicine, Guangzhou University of TCM,

(specialising in acupuncture and moxibustion).

Subject Contact hours

TCM

TCM History 38

Basic theory of TCM 95

Meridian theory 95

Acupuncture points 125

TCM diagnostics 108

Science of Chinese materia medica 123

Formulary of Chinese materia medica 95

Neijing (Canon of medicine) 121

Classic literature selection (acupuncture) 95

Doctrines of various historic schools (acupuncture) 38

Ancient Chinese medical literature 180

Western medicine

Anatomy 144

Biology 57

Physiology 120

Biochemistry 127

Microbiology 54

Parasitology 27

Pathology 96

Pharmacology 52

Chemistry 57

Physics 75

Statistics 38

Clinical subjects

Western internal medicine 180

TCM internal medicine 160

TCM gynaecology 48

TCM paediatrics 77

Acupuncture manipulations 104

Acupuncture therapeutics 216

Massage therapy 144

Radiology 26

General subjects

Political education 216

Moral education 108

Foreign languages 288

Physical education 144

Labour education 36

Electives (8 * 30 hrs) 240

Total subject hours 3917

Clinical practicum 3056

Total contact hours 6973

Table 8.5: Distribution of contact hours for the Bachelor of Medicine

(TCM) program

Compulsory subjects Contact hours Proportion of total load (%)

TCM 1705 47.4

Western medical 858 23.9

General 792 22.0

Elective subjects 240 6.7

Total face-to-face subjects 3595 100

Total clinical practicum 3056

Dr. Steven J Slater

Practitioner and Acupuncturist

Mobile: 0437 033 500

chinese_medicine

March 7, 2005

Thanks for your info however the original issue that I was aware of was over

NO training not a little in each others fields. To this I have only seen

support for the fact that there is some cross-over, to what extent is

unclear. This is support even by your response below.

A bigger concern in all of this comparison is how this impacts or should

impact us in our system. Are we even able to say that these people are

ill-trained when some of us may have less than this? The context of what is

in their courses may not be as important as to how it is presented to them.

For example, I think by now many of us seem to agree that we have lots of

hours in some classes but upon review the class is simply being read from

the text. This is not the way it should be.

Less criticism and more action is what our profession needs. A good

critical analyses is important but what are we going to do with it now?

Should we be looking to change to their system? How do we do it without the

kind of support they have from their government? Or maybe our system is

alright but needs some tweeking in various areas. Maybe we are too hard on

our profession. Maybe we forget that school is designed to help us with

entry level standards not mastery. Maybe the herbal part of our profession

will not be able to access products in the future and cease to exist. In

the end, what we do or not do is what is important.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>

> TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:59:46 +1100

>

>For those that are truly interested in what shape and form professional

>TCM education now takes in China and how the two majors of acupuncture

>and herbal medicine are separated to produce professionals in these two

>modalitiies, I am supplying the following data from Guangzhou

>University of TCM in 1995. The education of TCM professionals in China

>is controlled by the SATCM and all university courses are structured

>practically identically so the example structure presented here is for

>all intents and purposes what you will find is the structure for

>undergraduate education in ALL of China's TCM Universities. Guanngzhou,

>along with Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and Chengdu form the " BIG 5 " in

>terms of the standard of TCM University education in China.

>

>I am hesitant to post any more on this topic (and even on this list) as

>it is abundantly clear to me that one individual in particular on this

>list has absolutely no interest in the truth, and would prefer to be an

>armchair expert on all things TCM in China without ever having spent a

>day in a chinese university or hospital setting. This person persists

>in claiming that all I have to say on this matter is incorrect and that

>I can't comprehend written english along with his generally dismissive

>attitude towards all of my posts. I sincerely hope that from this point

>on that this individual can show a little more respect for real data

>(although they see statistics as conspiratorial) and first hand

>experience; especially when they fail to produce either when dismissing

>the information I post on this list...........

>

>OK.....

>

>The raw data is presented at the end of this post.

>

>Firstly, I would like to note that every hour does not add up perfectly

>in this data for reasons I assume are typos. However the data shows the

>facts rather clearly IMO even if 1 or 2 hours have been lost in

>transmission. The basic calculation of percentage hours included here

>has been done by me and I am sure there are some errors; but I am

>confident the message of the data speaks rather loudly by itself and I

>have not attempted to manipulate the data to suit my previous posts or

>positions.

>

>Herbal Medicine majors undergo a total of 6633 face-to-face instruction

>in their undergraduate degree training, while Acupuncture/Moxibustion

>majors appear to undertake more at 6973 hours.

>

>Approximately 46% (3056 hours) of the total contact hours of the

>undergraduate degree level TCM education in China is spent in

>internship in their major. Of the remaining 54% (3577 hours) education,

>47% (1705 hours) is concerned specifically with TCM, 24% (858 hours) is

>concerned with Western medical subjects and the remaining 29% involves

>general and elective subjects.

>

>When looked at more closely; the clinical practicum/internships in fact

>consumes 64% of the total hours of TCM related training hours in the

>undergraduate degrees in China. Incidentally, 3056 hours at a rate of 8

>hours a day, 5-6 days a week translates to 64-76 weeks of intensive

>clinical training in their major ONLY.

>

>Of the 36% (1705 hours) of specifically TCM education remaining, some

>of the basic introductory subjects are shared by both majors: TCM

>history, Basic theory and Diagnostics, Science of Chinese materia

>medica, Formulary of Chinese materia medica and Ancient Chinese medical

>literature.

>

>Differences are found at this basic level in that herbal medicine

>majors do not study acupuncture points and meridian theory (sorry

>Tom:P), but instead study more hours in zang-fu doctrine and TCM

>etiology and pathology. Acupuncture majors in addition to the

>acupuncture points and meridian theory courses, also study additional

>hours in classical literature specifically related to acupuncture that

>the herbal majors do not.

>

>Much of the of the non-TCM Western Medical courses are shared, but it

>should be noted that only the herbal medicine undergraduates receive

>theoretical training in western diagnostics (126 hours) while the

>acupuncture majors do not, instead they study chemistry and physics

>(total of 132 hours).

>

>Moving on to the clinically related subjects: both majors study Western

>Internal Medicine, TCM Internal Medicine, TCM gynaecology and TCM

>paediatrics. This data may be misleading on the surface as these

>courses may in fact be specifically taught in terms of their major

>(this is actually how I was educated as I took such clinical specialty

>theory courses twice from the perspective of the different majors). ie.

>TCM internal medicine may be taught in relation to acupuncture

>treatment for acupuncture majors, whereas TCM internal medicine is

>discussed in relation to herbal medicine treatment for herbal medicine

>majors.

>

>Beyond this however there is a large difference in clinical theory

>training: Acupuncture majors study an additional 464 hours theory in

>acupuncture manipulations and therapeutics and massage therapy. In

>contrast, the herbal majors study an additional 566 hours in TCM

>surgery, TCM traumatology, TCM opthamology, TCM otorhinolaryngology,

>exogenous febrile diseases, seasonal febrile diseases and the Golden

>Chamber text.

>

>Herbal majors study a clinical theory subject on acupuncture of 90

>hours and this appears to be the TOTAL of acupuncture education they

>receive.

>

>The total of 6800 hours for the following analysis is taken as a rather

>rough average to compensate for the difference in the total hours in

>the majors themselves i.e.. 6633 versus 6973 hours.

>

>The hours common to both majors in the total degree period, including

>the over 1000 hours of education in general subjects and electives, is

>approximately 39% (2660/6800 hours). When the common hours are looked

>at in terms of TCM related topics they share only 15% (1010/6800

>hours). As noted above, these figures may be in fact even lower as they

>include all the clinical theory subjects that may be in fact

>specifically taught in terms of their major. If this is actually the

>case, the actual shared TCM topics between both majors is further

>reduced to reach only 8% (544/6800 hours).

>

>When analyzing the numbers in terms of hours a herbal medicine major

>studies acupuncture related topics; it is 1% (90/6633 hours) of the

>total of their undergraduate degree education, or 2% (90/4761 hours) of

>the TCM only related study hours. From the other direction, acupuncture

>majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3% (218/6973 hours)

>of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of TCM related study

>hours.

>

>Returning to the internship, this is undertaken only in ONE of the

>degree majors ie. herbal medicine or acupuncture/massage......NOT both.

>I am sure most of us would agree that the real crux of training in TCM

>goes beyond book theory and is learnt by seeing real patients in real

>trouble in the presence of an experienced doctor. They have no

>substantial clinical training in the other discipline and OVER 95% of

>their TCM theoretical and practical training is specifically in their

>major!!

>

>The other issue I feel is of importance when looking at the clinical

>training in China is that the degree of exposure to patients and

>conditions is simply phenomenal in the herbal medicine major when

>compared to clinical training in the West. In contrast, when compared

>to herbal medicine departments; acupuncture seemed to have a VERY

>narrow scope of practice in the major hospitals I had exposure to.

>There is certainly much to be said for the generally slower pace at

>which patients are seen in the West which allows a far more in-depth

>discussion of each case with ones mentor and the exposure to conditions

>that are more our bread-and-butter as clinicians in the West. On the

>other hand, seeing 50-100 cases each day, 5 days a week for 12 months

>gives an exposure to conditions and patients that is simply unheard of

>in most TCM education in the West. Obviously, a balance of both these

>methods would probably be best for a student and the more inquisitive

>learning style of many westerners.

>

>It is on the basis of data such as presented in this post and my

>experience in TCM University and hospital settings in China that I have

>expressed opinions on this list suggesting that a current undergraduate

>herbal medicine major is not trained sufficiently to practice

>acupuncture as a healthcare professional (total 90 hours training in

>this modality) and that acupuncture majors are not trained to a

>professional level to practice herbal medicine (total of 218 hours

>training in this modality).

>

>This is NOT to say that SOME don't undertake further internships or

>education AFTER their undergraduate studies to reach the level of

>competent clinical practice in the other modality. These practitioners

>who have actually pursued such graduate studies or clinical training

>after their undergraduate education were not the subject of ANY of my

>postings on this list contrary to the claims of some.

>

>If anyone believes they can make an argument that a recent

>undergraduate acupuncture major from China can practice herbal medicine

>at a professional level considering the data presented here on living

>human beings WITHOUT further post-graduate training and experience;

>they simply hold a radically different view of what constitutes

>competence and profession training.

>

>Such an opinion would be saying, in essence, that an acupuncture major

>can practice herbal medicine competently and professionally even-though

>he has studied a total of 218 hours of herbal medicine and had no

>clinical training in this modality and vice versa for a herbal medicine

>major who only studies 90 hours of acupuncture theory.

>

>It is certainly possible that things have change in the past 10 years

>since this course was the norm; however, as the total degree length has

>not changed; any change to incorporate more of the other modality would

>necessitate a watering down of the particular major studies in a

>proportional amount. Further, the educational structure presented here

>is consistent with my understanding of the system as it was when I was

>in China circa 2002 that formed the basis for my opinions and postings

>regarding this topic previously.

>

>Obviously some on this list hold a much shorter yardstick to what

>constitutes a competent, professionally educated/trained herbalist

>and/or acupuncturist than I or the Australian profession does. Perhaps

>some are simply unaware of the facts regarding the education our modern

>Chinese trained peers have and what they actually learnt, and yet

>prefer to assume they have more training than is often the case simply

>because they are Chinese or they use the modality without harming

>patients in their clinic without considering the views of those who

>have first hand experience to the contrary. Some will also persist in

>holding this belief regardless of what the facts say to keep their

> " your ok, I'm ok " , " anything goes " attitude to TCM to keep their world

>view safe.

>

>The Australian profession has recognised the facts presented here and

>has taken steps to ensure a minimum standard in the education and/or

>clinical experience for practitioners of these two modalities of

>, regardless of whether they were trained in China,

>Australia or Iceland. Interestingly, many of the individuals who have

>pushed for and achieved these regulations and standards in Australia

>are China-trained Chinese and have had major roles in establishing TCM

>education at the University level in this country.

>

>In essence, this means that in Australia, a graduate from China who

>majored in Herbal Medicine can not become a member of a professional

>association as an acupuncturist unless they have completed further

>training in this specialty since graduation (and increasingly as more

>states here introduce legislation; claim to practice acupuncture or

>hold themselves out to be acupuncturists in any way). Same for the

>reverse major in acupuncture. This is due to recognition of the fact

>that studying one of these majors in China is not sufficient to

>practice the other on patients as a professional.

>

>The following data comes from an excellent study on TCM commissioned by

>the Australian Government as part of its preparations for the

>regulation of TCM in this country. It is entitled " Towards a Safer

>Choice: The Practice of in Australia " . Since the time

>this paper was published (late 1990's), Australia has re-structured its

>TCM education to a level of independance, recognition, regulation and

> " protection of title " to what is probably the highest standard outside

>China.

>

>This paper may be of interest to many of the academics, administrators

>and teachers on this list and if interested, they can access most of

>the paper here:-

>

>http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

>

>Bachelor of Medicine, Guangzhou University of TCM, (specialising in

>Chinese herbal medicine).

>Subject Contact hours

> TCM

> TCM History 27

> Introduction to TCM 32

> Zhang-xiang Xue (Viscera-state doctrine of TCM) 72

> TCM etiology and pathology 60

> TCM diagnostics 72

> Science of Chinese materia medica 144

> Formulary of Chinese materia medica 90

> Prevention and cure in TCM 63

> Doctrines of various historic schools 70

> Ancient Chinese medical literature 108

>

> Western medicine

> Anatomy 111

> Histology & embryology 36

> Physiology 90

> Biochemistry 72

> Microbiology 54

> Parasitology 27

> Pathology 90

> Pharmacology 72

> Fundamentals of diagnostics 126

> Statistics 54

>

> Clinical subjects

> Western internal medicine 72

> Surgery 54

> TCM internal medicine 180

> TCM surgery 108

> TCM gynaecology 108

> TCM paediatrics 77

> TCM traumatology 72

> TCM opthalmology 49

> TCM otorhinolaryngology 49

> Acupuncture 90

> Exogenous febrile diseases 90

> Seasonal febrile diseases 72

> Golden Chamber text 126

>

> General subjects

> Political education 216

> Moral education 108

> Foreign languages 288

> Physical education 144

> Labour education 36

> Electives (8 * 30 hrs) 240

>

> Total subject hours 3577

>

>Clinical practicum 3056

>

>Total contact hours 6633

>

>Table 8.4: Bachelor of Medicine, Guangzhou University of TCM,

>(specialising in acupuncture and moxibustion).

>

>Subject Contact hours

> TCM

> TCM History 38

> Basic theory of TCM 95

> Meridian theory 95

> Acupuncture points 125

> TCM diagnostics 108

> Science of Chinese materia medica 123

> Formulary of Chinese materia medica 95

> Neijing (Canon of medicine) 121

> Classic literature selection (acupuncture) 95

> Doctrines of various historic schools (acupuncture) 38

> Ancient Chinese medical literature 180

>

> Western medicine

> Anatomy 144

> Biology 57

> Physiology 120

> Biochemistry 127

> Microbiology 54

> Parasitology 27

> Pathology 96

> Pharmacology 52

> Chemistry 57

> Physics 75

> Statistics 38

>

> Clinical subjects

> Western internal medicine 180

> TCM internal medicine 160

> TCM gynaecology 48

> TCM paediatrics 77

> Acupuncture manipulations 104

> Acupuncture therapeutics 216

> Massage therapy 144

> Radiology 26

>

> General subjects

> Political education 216

> Moral education 108

> Foreign languages 288

> Physical education 144

> Labour education 36

> Electives (8 * 30 hrs) 240

>

> Total subject hours 3917

>

>Clinical practicum 3056

>

>Total contact hours 6973

>

>Table 8.5: Distribution of contact hours for the Bachelor of Medicine

>(TCM) program

>

>Compulsory subjects Contact hours Proportion of total load (%)

>TCM 1705 47.4

>Western medical 858 23.9

>General 792 22.0

>Elective subjects 240 6.7

>

>Total face-to-face subjects 3595 100

>

>Total clinical practicum 3056

>

>Dr. Steven J Slater

> Practitioner and Acupuncturist

>Mobile: 0437 033 500

>chinese_medicine

>

March 7, 2005

I never said they received NO training in the other modality, although

90 to 218 hours is the next best thing to none in over 6,500 hours of

training. I believe my position has consistently been that they do not

receive training to a professional practitioner level in the other

modality in undergraduate degrees today.

I have said my piece on this issue now and I will let the facts speak

for themselves.

On 08/03/2005, at 12:34 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> Thanks for your info however the original issue that I was aware of

> was over

> NO training not a little in each others fields. To this I have only

> seen

> support for the fact that there is some cross-over, to what extent is

> unclear. This is support even by your response below.

>

March 7, 2005

On 08/03/2005, at 12:34 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

> A bigger concern in all of this comparison is how this impacts or

> should

> impact us in our system. Are we even able to say that these people

> are

> ill-trained when some of us may have less than this?

This is a totally separate issue. Regarding the training of " us " ; I

have consistently stated that IMO we are dreaming if we think we are

sufficiently trained by the 3-4 year so-called " masters " in TCM in the

West that covers several modalities when the chinese take 5 years to

study one modality.

Simply stated, I think we need more hours training; particularly in

area of clinical internship before we are set free as practitioners to

treat (experiment?) on the human population with our immature

knowledge.

On this issue also I have said my piece previously and will not respond

to posts that will only rehash old territory.

Steve

March 7, 2005

Steve

By the way when i said acupun Dr in our hospital often wrote Rx i did not mean

they were very good at it. They mostly used formulas from the formulary of the

hospital and often in a very basic way and sometimes probably in an injurious

way. They did however had prescription rights. Also I am sure things are very

different these days. Even the younger Dr in 85 were older and culture

revolution survivors. Some were bare foot dr before going to TCM school. Also

they were some of the first graduates of the newer tcm school system. Miriam Lee

also by no means " an herbalist " but used herbs all the time.

March 7, 2005

Steve,

Why the attitude? I think we all agree that this a small amount of

education. Let's not forget the original concern was that people were

stating they received none, which is false according to all opinions and

facts posted. Your statement is in fact support that they do receive some

as is Bob's etc. We can all argue whether or not this is in fact enough.

The next issue for me and I would hope all of is what does this do for us as

a profession? Realize that practitioners come over from China and get

licensed here in the states both in acu and herbs as well as instruct in

these as well. Some schools tend to worship these individuals or only hire

those trained abroad, a kind of bias. Maybe we should talk about

transparency and consistancy of standards. What do others think?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>

>Re: TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:44:40 +1100

>

>I never said they received NO training in the other modality, although

>90 to 218 hours is the next best thing to none in over 6,500 hours of

>training. I believe my position has consistently been that they do not

>receive training to a professional practitioner level in the other

>modality in undergraduate degrees today.

>

>I have said my piece on this issue now and I will let the facts speak

>for themselves.

>

>On 08/03/2005, at 12:34 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> >

> > Thanks for your info however the original issue that I was aware of

> > was over

> > NO training not a little in each others fields. To this I have only

> > seen

> > support for the fact that there is some cross-over, to what extent is

> > unclear. This is support even by your response below.

> >

>

March 7, 2005

It is interesting to see that there are so many different ways to combine

this knowledge in the creation of new professions.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

>

>Re: TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:45:45 -0800

>

>Steve

>By the way when i said acupun Dr in our hospital often wrote Rx i did not

>mean they were very good at it. They mostly used formulas from the

>formulary of the hospital and often in a very basic way and sometimes

>probably in an injurious way. They did however had prescription rights.

>Also I am sure things are very different these days. Even the younger Dr in

>85 were older and culture revolution survivors. Some were bare foot dr

>before going to TCM school. Also they were some of the first graduates of

>the newer tcm school system. Miriam Lee also by no means " an herbalist " but

>used herbs all the time.

>

March 7, 2005

Residencies are being proposed, I think in CA. This would help answer one

of your concerns. The problem this is the practitioner's education level

(would US trained practitioners be allowed to participate as instructors or

not?). This would be a natural spin off of the previous issue related to

the lack of training. In the end, we all should be interested with this

issue and how it might affect our profession or otherwise this is an

exercise in mental futility (ie, a waste of time).

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>

>Re: TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:03:45 +1100

>

>On 08/03/2005, at 12:34 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

> > A bigger concern in all of this comparison is how this impacts or

> > should

> > impact us in our system. Are we even able to say that these people

> > are

> > ill-trained when some of us may have less than this?

>

>This is a totally separate issue. Regarding the training of " us " ; I

>have consistently stated that IMO we are dreaming if we think we are

>sufficiently trained by the 3-4 year so-called " masters " in TCM in the

>West that covers several modalities when the chinese take 5 years to

>study one modality.

>

>Simply stated, I think we need more hours training; particularly in

>area of clinical internship before we are set free as practitioners to

>treat (experiment?) on the human population with our immature

>knowledge.

>

>On this issue also I have said my piece previously and will not respond

>to posts that will only rehash old territory.

>

>Steve

>

March 7, 2005

, Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...>

wrote:

> For those that are truly interested in what shape and form professional

> TCM education now takes in China and how the two majors of acupuncture

> and herbal medicine are separated to produce professionals in these two

> modalitiies, I am supplying the following data from Guangzhou

> University of TCM in 1995.

Steve

Thank you. Your words are irrefutable and beyond dispute. Let the others rant

and pretty

much ignore them. They know not of what they speak and each word they write

makes our

case stronger, not theirs.

March 7, 2005

This sounds like the Republican sound machine. I guess if you say something

enough times it becomes truthful.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <

>

> Re: TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:27:49 -0000

>

> , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...>

>wrote:

> > For those that are truly interested in what shape and form professional

> > TCM education now takes in China and how the two majors of acupuncture

> > and herbal medicine are separated to produce professionals in these two

> > modalitiies, I am supplying the following data from Guangzhou

> > University of TCM in 1995.

>

>Steve

>

>Thank you. Your words are irrefutable and beyond dispute. Let the others

>rant and pretty

>much ignore them. They know not of what they speak and each word they write

>makes our

>case stronger, not theirs.

>

>Todd

>

March 7, 2005

Steve,

Thanks for the very useful information you've compiled. I'm just trying to make

sense of it and boil it down to a short summary. Do you think the following is

an accurate summary?

------

Information from Steve Slater regarding TCM herbology training (undergraduate or

B.S. level equivalent) in China:

In a typical 6633 hour (6633 hrs = 100%) training program:

* 46.1% (3056 hrs): internship in herbology clinic

* 25.4% (1705 hrs): general TCM theory and subjects shared by both

herbology and acupuncture majors (TCM history, basic theory and diagnostics,

science of Chinese materia medica, formulary of Chinese materia medica, and

ancient Chinese medical literature) plus courses specific to herbology (zang-fu

doctrine and TCM etiology and pathology, which are taught from the perspective

of herbology rather than acupuncture)

* 12.9% (858 hrs): western medicine subjects

* 15.1% (1000 hrs): in general subjects and electives (non-TCM)

* 01.4% (90 hrs): acupuncture theory

Acupuncture majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3% (218/6973

hours) of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of TCM related study

hours.

For more information, and the complete report:

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

Towards a Safer Choice: The Practice of in Australia

------

Thanks much.

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

March 7, 2005

On 08/03/2005, at 11:26 AM, rw2 wrote:

>

> Steve,

>

> Thanks for the very useful information you've compiled. I'm just

> trying to make sense of it and boil it down to a short summary. Do you

> think the following is an accurate summary?

>

> ------

> Information from Steve Slater regarding TCM herbology training

> (undergraduate or B.S. level equivalent) in China:

>

> In a typical 6633 hour (6633 hrs = 100%) training program:

> * 46.1% (3056 hrs): internship in herbology clinic

> * 25.4% (1705 hrs): general TCM theory and subjects shared by

> both herbology and acupuncture majors (TCM history, basic theory and

> diagnostics, science of Chinese materia medica, formulary of Chinese

> materia medica, and ancient Chinese medical literature) plus courses

> specific to herbology (zang-fu doctrine and TCM etiology and

> pathology, which are taught from the perspective of herbology rather

> than acupuncture)

> * 12.9% (858 hrs): western medicine subjects

> * 15.1% (1000 hrs): in general subjects and electives (non-TCM)

> * 01.4% (90 hrs): acupuncture theory

>

> Acupuncture majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3%

> (218/6973 hours) of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of

> TCM related study hours.

>

> For more information, and the complete report:

> http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

> Towards a Safer Choice: The Practice of in

> Australia

> ------

>

> Thanks much.

>

> ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

>

Hi Roger,

According to my calculations, from a purely Herbology major

perspective: Total 6651 hours over 5 years (6651 hours =100%)

* 46% (3056 hours): internship in herbology clinic.

* 8.8% (585 hours): TCM basics - TCM history, intro to TCM, zang fu

doctrine, etiology/pathology, diagnostics, prevention and cure,

doctrines of ancient schools and ancient literature

* 2.3% (153 hours): Herbology basics : Materia medica and formulae

* 15.1% (1003 hours): Clinical subjects (probably herbology perspective

only): western internal medicine, surgery, TCM internal medicine, TCM

surgery, TCM gynecology, TCM pediatrics, TCM traumatology, TCM

ophthalmology, TCM otorhinolaryngology, exogenous febrile diseases,

seasonal febrile diseases, golden chamber text.

* 1.3% (90 hours): Acupuncture (clinical theory subject)

* 11% (732 hours): Western medicine subjects.

* 15.5% (1032 hours): General and elective subjects (non-TCM)

Herbology majors study acupuncture related topics at 1.3% (90/6651

hours) of the total of their undergraduate degree education, or 1.9%

(90/4761 hours) of TCM related study hours.

* although the total figure of 6633 hours is quoted in some parts of

the paper; when the individual subject hours are added it totals 6651

and this is also the total used in the summary at the end of the paper.

From a purely Acupuncture major perspective: Total 6973 hours over 5

years (6973 hours = 100%)

* 44.8% (3056 hours): internship in acupuncture clinic.

* 6% (421 hours): TCM basics - TCM history, basic theory, diagnostics

and ancient literature.

* 6.8% (474 hours) : Acupuncture basics including meridian theory,

points and and ancient acupuncture literature.

* 3.1% (218 hours): Herbology basics : Materia medica and formulae

* 13.3% (925 hours): Clinical subjects (probably acupuncture

perspective only): western internal medicine, TCM internal medicine,

TCM gynecology, TCM pediatrics, acupuncture manipulations, acupuncture

therapeutics, massage therapy, radiology.

* 12.1% (847 hours) Western medicine subjects.

* 14.8% (1032 hours): General subjects and electives (non-TCM).

Acupuncture majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3.1%

(218/6973 hours) of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of

TCM related study hours.

If we take 6800 hours as a rather rough average to compensate for the

difference in the total hours in the majors themselves i.e.. 6651

versus 6973, the hours common to both majors in the total degree period

is:-

39% (2660/6800 hours) including the over 1000 hours of education in

general subjects and electives.

15% (1010/6800 hours) in terms of TCM related topics.

As noted above, these figures may be in fact even lower as they include

all the clinical theory subjects that may be in fact specifically

taught in terms of their major. If this is actually the case, the

actual shared TCM topics between both majors is further reduced to

reach only 8% (544/6800 hours).

I hope this clears up the complex mess I managed to post when analysing

this data:P

Best Wishes,

Steve

Dr. Steven J Slater

Practitioner and Acupuncturist

Mobile: 0437 033 500

chinese_medicine

March 8, 2005

At 1:09 PM +1100 3/8/05, Steven Slater wrote:

>According to my calculations, from a purely Herbology major

>perspective: Total 6651 hours over 5 years (6651 hours =100%)

--

Steven,

Thanks to you for presenting the facts of Chinese TCM education in

the PRC. I do have a couple of questions.

Do the students at Guangzhou get a significant Summer break and

operate on true semester system? I ask this because here in the USA

we stuff three semesters into a year, reducing a five year program to

3.3 years. I doubt it would be possible for most students currently

enrolled in TCM programs here to sustain that level on intensity for

five years, even though the total hours is about half of that in the

Chinese programs.

How do the Australian Universty TCM programs schedule their programs

and over what period of time?

Rory

--

March 8, 2005

Maybe I missed the obvious but are these hours for the Bachelors degree? And I

asusme

that this degree will not allow one an MD degree. Is that correct?

doug

> Steven,

>

> Thanks to you for presenting the facts of Chinese TCM education in

> the PRC. I do have a couple of questions.

> > Rory

> --

>

March 8, 2005

Hi Doug,

Yes, this data is for the basic undergraduate Bachelor Degree in

Medicine (herbal medicine or acupuncture). A masters is a further 2 or

3 years full-time. PhD's require further years after a Masters.

This is not a degree in Western Medicine which I gather you may me

asking about in terms of an MD. It think that a Bachelor in Western

Medicine is undertaken at a Medical Uni, not a TCM Uni. Although, I

think some Western Medical Uni's in China offer 7 year degrees that

also qualify the graduates to practice baisc TCM.

Best Wishes,

Steve

On 09/03/2005, at 10:30 AM, wrote:

>

> Maybe I missed the obvious but are these hours for the Bachelors

> degree? And I asusme

> that this degree will not allow one an MD degree. Is that correct?

>

> doug

>

>> Steven,

>>

>> Thanks to you for presenting the facts of Chinese TCM education in

>> the PRC. I do have a couple of questions.

>>> Rory

>> --

>>

March 8, 2005

Steve,

Here's round #2. I made corrections using your clarifications. How's this?:

The following information is from Steve Slater regarding TCM herbology training

(undergraduate or B.S. level equivalent) in China:

In a typical 6651-hour (6651 hrs = 100%) training program:

A: 45.9% (3056 hrs): Internship in herbology clinic.

B: 27.5% (1831 hrs): TCM-related courses:

B1: 8.8% (585 hrs): TCM basics - TCM history, intro to TCM, zang fu

doctrine, etiology/pathology, diagnostics, prevention and cure, doctrines of

ancient schools and ancient literature.

B2: 2.3% (153 hrs): Herbology basics: Materia medica and formulae

B3: 15.1% (1003 hrs): Clinical subjects (probably from an herbology

perspective only): western internal medicine, surgery, TCM internal medicine,

TCM surgery, TCM gynecology, TCM pediatrics, TCM traumatology, TCM

ophthalmology, TCM otorhinolaryngology, exogenous febrile diseases, seasonal

febrile diseases, Golden Chamber text.

B4: 1.4% (90 hrs): Acupuncture (clinical theory)

C: 11.0% (732 hrs): Western medicine subjects.

D: 15.5% (1032 hrs): General and elective subjects (non-TCM)

Of the above curriculum, the only herbology-specific course groups that

acupuncture majors have in common with herbology majors is group " B2 " , which is

2.3% of the total curriculum and 4.3% of the didactic course work (not including

internship hours).

[rw comment: In item " B3 " the phrase " probably from an herbology perspective

only " is crucial to the argument that some of us have been making. How would you

back this up or fill in the details? Is this somewhere in the following report

or is it based on your's and others' experiences?:]

For more information, and the complete report:

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

Towards a Safer Choice: The Practice of in Australia

---------

Sorry to be so nit-picking, but as this is from an official Australian govt.

report, I'd like to be able to incorporate this in a future article.

Roger

> Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:26:42 -0700

> rw2

>Re: TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>

>Steve,

>

>Thanks for the very useful information you've compiled. I'm just trying to make

sense of it and boil it down to a short summary. Do you think the following is

an accurate summary?

>

>------

>Information from Steve Slater regarding TCM herbology training (undergraduate

or B.S. level equivalent) in China:

>

>In a typical 6633 hour (6633 hrs = 100%) training program:

> * 46.1% (3056 hrs): internship in herbology clinic

> * 25.4% (1705 hrs): general TCM theory and subjects shared by both

herbology and acupuncture majors (TCM history, basic theory and diagnostics,

science of Chinese materia medica, formulary of Chinese materia medica, and

ancient Chinese medical literature) plus courses specific to herbology (zang-fu

doctrine and TCM etiology and pathology, which are taught from the perspective

of herbology rather than acupuncture)

> * 12.9% (858 hrs): western medicine subjects

> * 15.1% (1000 hrs): in general subjects and electives (non-TCM)

> * 01.4% (90 hrs): acupuncture theory

>

>Acupuncture majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3% (218/6973

hours) of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of TCM related study

hours.

>

>For more information, and the complete report:

>http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

> Towards a Safer Choice: The Practice of in Australia

>------

>

>Thanks much.

>

>---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

>contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

>Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

>Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

>

>---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

>contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

>Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

>Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 11

> Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:26:43 -0700

> rw2

>Re: codex crock

>

>I sincerely hope you are right regarding the difference between Europe and

America on Codex. In principle, I am in favor of anyone being able to poison

themselves as long as they have been clearly warned with full disclosure. As you

point out, a lot of the supplement companies have engaged in sleazy marketing

tactics that fall short of full disclosure, which I've dissected in:

> http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-2.html

>Though also consider that many of the major supplement companies have been

bought by major pharmaceutical companies, so some of their sleazy tactics cannot

help but rub off on the daughter companies.

>

>On the other hand, perhaps one reason we Americans will continue to have more

rights regarding supplements and herbs is that we scream very loudly on the

slightest rumor that evil bureaucrats are about to take away this right. I say

continue to scream, it helps develop those diaphragm muscles and also keeps the

bureaucrats in check.

>

>Roger

>

>> <

>>codex crock

>>

>>While I don't agree with this author's concerns over the pressing need

>>to protect the public from access to certain possibly dangerous dietary

>>supplements, I do agree that companies have far too much freedom to

>>manipulate the public with lies about these products.

>>

>>http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/vitamins.asp

>>

>>The right to sell something is different than the right to lie about

>>it. Keeps supplements legal and ban advertising unless there is

>>controlled research to back it up. The important point of this article

>>is that it calls into dispute what I have long known to be misplaced

>>hysteria over the codex alimentarius. The codex is not a binding

>>document and only has force if we adopt it, which our congress has no

>>intention of doing...ever. I wonder when people are going to wake and

>>realize that we are ruled by republicans who think the europeans and

>>their draconian supplement rules are pathetic. Never gonna happen here

>>no how no way.

>>

>>There are some attempts in the US to regulate supplements, but they

>>will fail also as long as there is no real evidence of public harm.

>>that is the crux here. All the concern is about possible harm. Yet

>>after 10 years of DSHEA, there is no real harm evident. Case pretty

>>much closed. It is pretty obvious what this fuss is about. The

>>supplement industry is concerned about losing their right to deceive

>>you (and this may actually happen). So they throw up this smokescreen

>>that you will lose access when all that will be lost if their right to

>>lie blatantly on product labels. For ten years, people have been

>>screaming we will lose it all and in the end all we lost was ma huang

>>in supplement form, not a real major blow (and one that could be easily

>>undone with a focused effort). While there is some concern about the

>>citrus peels being lost, I doubt it. Ephedrae actually killed a few

>>idiots. Citrus never has. What are they going to do? Ban Earl grey

>>tea?

>>

>>Chinese Herbs

>

>---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

>contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

>Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

>Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 12

> Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:09:59 +1100

> Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>Re: Re: TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

>

>On 08/03/2005, at 11:26 AM, rw2 wrote:

>

>>

>> Steve,

>>

>> Thanks for the very useful information you've compiled. I'm just

>> trying to make sense of it and boil it down to a short summary. Do you

>> think the following is an accurate summary?

>>

>> ------

>> Information from Steve Slater regarding TCM herbology training

>> (undergraduate or B.S. level equivalent) in China:

>>

>> In a typical 6633 hour (6633 hrs = 100%) training program:

>> * 46.1% (3056 hrs): internship in herbology clinic

>> * 25.4% (1705 hrs): general TCM theory and subjects shared by

>> both herbology and acupuncture majors (TCM history, basic theory and

>> diagnostics, science of Chinese materia medica, formulary of Chinese

>> materia medica, and ancient Chinese medical literature) plus courses

>> specific to herbology (zang-fu doctrine and TCM etiology and

>> pathology, which are taught from the perspective of herbology rather

>> than acupuncture)

>> * 12.9% (858 hrs): western medicine subjects

>> * 15.1% (1000 hrs): in general subjects and electives (non-TCM)

>> * 01.4% (90 hrs): acupuncture theory

>>

>> Acupuncture majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3%

>> (218/6973 hours) of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of

>> TCM related study hours.

>>

>> For more information, and the complete report:

>> http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

>> Towards a Safer Choice: The Practice of in

>> Australia

>> ------

>>

>> Thanks much.

>>

>> ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

>>

>

>Hi Roger,

>

>According to my calculations, from a purely Herbology major

>perspective: Total 6651 hours over 5 years (6651 hours =100%)

>

>* 46% (3056 hours): internship in herbology clinic.

>* 8.8% (585 hours): TCM basics - TCM history, intro to TCM, zang fu

>doctrine, etiology/pathology, diagnostics, prevention and cure,

>doctrines of ancient schools and ancient literature

>* 2.3% (153 hours): Herbology basics : Materia medica and formulae

>* 15.1% (1003 hours): Clinical subjects (probably herbology perspective

>only): western internal medicine, surgery, TCM internal medicine, TCM

>surgery, TCM gynecology, TCM pediatrics, TCM traumatology, TCM

>ophthalmology, TCM otorhinolaryngology, exogenous febrile diseases,

>seasonal febrile diseases, golden chamber text.

>* 1.3% (90 hours): Acupuncture (clinical theory subject)

>* 11% (732 hours): Western medicine subjects.

>* 15.5% (1032 hours): General and elective subjects (non-TCM)

>

>Herbology majors study acupuncture related topics at 1.3% (90/6651

>hours) of the total of their undergraduate degree education, or 1.9%

>(90/4761 hours) of TCM related study hours.

>

>* although the total figure of 6633 hours is quoted in some parts of

>the paper; when the individual subject hours are added it totals 6651

>and this is also the total used in the summary at the end of the paper.

>

> From a purely Acupuncture major perspective: Total 6973 hours over 5

>years (6973 hours = 100%)

>

>* 44.8% (3056 hours): internship in acupuncture clinic.

>* 6% (421 hours): TCM basics - TCM history, basic theory, diagnostics

>and ancient literature.

>* 6.8% (474 hours) : Acupuncture basics including meridian theory,

>points and and ancient acupuncture literature.

>* 3.1% (218 hours): Herbology basics : Materia medica and formulae

>* 13.3% (925 hours): Clinical subjects (probably acupuncture

>perspective only): western internal medicine, TCM internal medicine,

>TCM gynecology, TCM pediatrics, acupuncture manipulations, acupuncture

>therapeutics, massage therapy, radiology.

>* 12.1% (847 hours) Western medicine subjects.

>* 14.8% (1032 hours): General subjects and electives (non-TCM).

>

>Acupuncture majors study herbal medicine subjects that consume 3.1%

>(218/6973 hours) of their total degree, and 4.3% (218/4990 hours) of

>TCM related study hours.

>

>If we take 6800 hours as a rather rough average to compensate for the

>difference in the total hours in the majors themselves i.e.. 6651

>versus 6973, the hours common to both majors in the total degree period

>is:-

>

>39% (2660/6800 hours) including the over 1000 hours of education in

>general subjects and electives.

>

>15% (1010/6800 hours) in terms of TCM related topics.

>

>As noted above, these figures may be in fact even lower as they include

>all the clinical theory subjects that may be in fact specifically

>taught in terms of their major. If this is actually the case, the

>actual shared TCM topics between both majors is further reduced to

>reach only 8% (544/6800 hours).

>

>I hope this clears up the complex mess I managed to post when analysing

>this data:P

>

>Best Wishes,

>Steve

>

>Dr. Steven J Slater

> Practitioner and Acupuncturist

>Mobile: 0437 033 500

>chinese_medicine

>

>______________________

>

>Message: 13

> Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:11:28 -0800 (PST)

>

>The masses

>

>Mike,

>

>Whether or not you or I agree with what they are doing, the government is more

or less with the masses. The country is pretty evenly divided and based on the

results of the last election (and I don't want to debate any kind " cheating " by

one party) the government is doing what most people in this country want.

>

>mike Bowser said:

>If recent trends in politics (ignore the masses) continue then we will begin to

lose our pharmacy.

>

>Thomas

>

>Celebrate 's 10th Birthday!

> Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

>

March 8, 2005

Steven,

What about the integratrated degree offerred by some colleges. How do they

compare?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>

>Re: Re: TCM University Education in China - data and

>analysis

>Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:43:18 +1100

>

>Hi Doug,

>

>Yes, this data is for the basic undergraduate Bachelor Degree in

>Medicine (herbal medicine or acupuncture). A masters is a further 2 or

>3 years full-time. PhD's require further years after a Masters.

>

>This is not a degree in Western Medicine which I gather you may me

>asking about in terms of an MD. It think that a Bachelor in Western

>Medicine is undertaken at a Medical Uni, not a TCM Uni. Although, I

>think some Western Medical Uni's in China offer 7 year degrees that

>also qualify the graduates to practice baisc TCM.

>

>Best Wishes,

>

>Steve

>

>On 09/03/2005, at 10:30 AM, wrote:

>

> >

> > Maybe I missed the obvious but are these hours for the Bachelors

> > degree? And I asusme

> > that this degree will not allow one an MD degree. Is that correct?

> >

> > doug

> >

> >> Steven,

> >>

> >> Thanks to you for presenting the facts of Chinese TCM education in

> >> the PRC. I do have a couple of questions.

> >>> Rory

> >> --

> >>

March 8, 2005

Hi Roger,

I don't think you are nit-picking; I think we are both trying to make

the data as transparent and objective as possible.

The only data specified in the original report was in the form of the

raw data tables I supplied and that are also available via the weblink.

All calculations are mine based directly on this data.

The nature of your B3 is not specified in the report and the comment is

purely my speculation based on my of what it may involve given my

training in Australia and lectures I attended at Uni in China. For

example, internal medicine, gyne and ped's subjects were taught in

terms of herbal medicine. In the subjects of " clincial acupuncture " ,

conditions were once again divided into internal med, gyne, ped's etc

and diagnosis and treatment discussed from the acupuncture perspective.

What also tends to suggest to me that these are not the same is that in

these shared clinical subjects, while having the same subject names,

differ in hours with the exception of TCM pediatrics:-

Western int med is 72 hours in herbology major but 180 hours in

acupuncture major.

TCM internal med - 180 hours in herbology, 160 hours in acupuncture

major.

TCM gynecology - 108 hours in herbology, 48 hours acupuncture.

Having said all that, to be as transparent and objective as possible,

and considering I currently have no access to the detailed subject

content for each course listed in this paper; perhaps it would be best

to specify which clinical subjects are shared, and which are unique to

each major. This would give us:-

A: Shared clinical subjects in both acupuncture and herbology (6.6%

(437/6651) in herbology major, 6.7% (465/6973) in acupuncture major) :

Western internal medicine, TCM internal medicine, TCM gynecology, TCM

pediatrics (unknown if both perspectives are discussed or these are

addressed specifically to each major).

B: Clinical subjects only in herbology major: 9.9% (656 hours) :

surgury, TCM surgery, TCM traumatology, TCM ophthalmology, TCM

otorhinolaryngology, acupuncture, exogenous febrile diseases, seasonal

febrile diseases and golden chamber text.

C: Clinical subjects only in acupuncture major : 6.6% (460 hours) :

acupuncture manipulations, acupuncture therapeutics, massage therapy,

radiology.

Sorry I am having trouble making a very short summary for you which

gives clear detail of the percentages. While the data is simple, it

gets complex when all details are analyzed from different perspectives.

This is what I calculate taking this approach:-

In a typical 6651-hour (6651 hrs = 100%) training program:

A: 45.9% (3056 hrs): Internship in herbology clinic.

B: 27.5% (1831 hrs): TCM-related courses:

B1: 8.8% (585 hrs): TCM basics - TCM history, intro to TCM, zang

fu doctrine, etiology/pathology, diagnostics, prevention and cure,

doctrines of ancient schools and ancient literature.

B2: 2.3% (153 hrs): Herbology basics: Materia medica and formulae

B3: 6.6% (437 hrs) : Clinical subjects shared with acupuncture

major: Western internal medicine, TCM internal medicine, TCM

gynecology, TCM pediatrics (unknown if both perspectives are discussed

or these are addressed specifically to each major).

B4: 8.5% (566 hrs) Clinical subjects unique to herbology major:

surgury, TCM surgery, TCM traumatology, TCM ophthalmology, TCM

otorhinolaryngology, exogenous febrile diseases, seasonal febrile

diseases and Golden Chamber text.

B5: 1.3% (90 hrs): Acupuncture (clinical theory)

C: 11.0% (732 hrs): Western medicine subjects.

D: 15.5% (1032 hrs): General and elective subjects (non-TCM)

Of the above curriculum, the only herbology-specific course groups that

acupuncture majors have in common with herbology majors is group " B2 " ,

which is 2.3% of the total curriculum and 4.3% of the didactic course

work (not including internship hours).

Best Wishes,

Steve

On 09/03/2005, at 10:45 AM, rw2 wrote:

>

> Steve,

>

> Here's round #2. I made corrections using your clarifications. How's

> this?:

>

> The following information is from Steve Slater regarding TCM herbology

> training

> (undergraduate or B.S. level equivalent) in China:

>

> In a typical 6651-hour (6651 hrs = 100%) training program:

>

> A: 45.9% (3056 hrs): Internship in herbology clinic.

> B: 27.5% (1831 hrs): TCM-related courses:

> B1: 8.8% (585 hrs): TCM basics - TCM history, intro to TCM, zang

> fu doctrine, etiology/pathology, diagnostics, prevention and cure,

> doctrines of ancient schools and ancient literature.

> B2: 2.3% (153 hrs): Herbology basics: Materia medica and formulae

> B3: 15.1% (1003 hrs): Clinical subjects (probably from an

> herbology perspective only): western internal medicine, surgery, TCM

> internal medicine, TCM surgery, TCM gynecology, TCM pediatrics, TCM

> traumatology, TCM ophthalmology, TCM otorhinolaryngology, exogenous

> febrile diseases, seasonal febrile diseases, Golden Chamber text.

> B4: 1.4% (90 hrs): Acupuncture (clinical theory)

> C: 11.0% (732 hrs): Western medicine subjects.

> D: 15.5% (1032 hrs): General and elective subjects (non-TCM)

>

> Of the above curriculum, the only herbology-specific course groups

> that acupuncture majors have in common with herbology majors is group

> " B2 " , which is 2.3% of the total curriculum and 4.3% of the didactic

> course work (not including internship hours).

>

> [rw comment: In item " B3 " the phrase " probably from an herbology

> perspective only " is crucial to the argument that some of us have been

> making. How would you back this up or fill in the details? Is this

> somewhere in the following report or is it based on your's and others'

> experiences?:]

>

> For more information, and the complete report:

> http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/contents.html

> Towards a Safer Choice: The Practice of in

> Australia

> ---------

>

> Sorry to be so nit-picking, but as this is from an official Australian

> govt. report, I'd like to be able to incorporate this in a future

> article.

>

> Roger

March 8, 2005

Hi Rory,

The Guangzhou data did not specify semester and break periods. The

chinese education system is generally more intense than that in the

West due to the obvious competition they face with each other. I would

say that generally, Chinese students sustain a larger degree of study

intensity over a longer period of time than most of us could handle or

are familiar with.

I did find some information that is available from the Shanghai Uni of

TCM regarding your query however.....

The schooling period for Major of Traditional and

Major of Acupuncture and Naprapathy is 5 years, and may extend to 7

years, or to 8 years only after the approval by the College in the

specific situations. The schooling period for Major of Chinese

Pharmacology is 4 years, and may extend to 6 years, or to 7 years only

after the approval by the College in the specific situations.

From Grade 1 to Grade 4, there are three semesters in every academic

year. The first and second semester are respectively 15 weeks (14 weeks

for theoretical education, and 1 week for reviewing and examinations),

the third semester is 10 weeks (5 weeks for practice, and another 5

weeks for optional courses and examinations).

Grade 5 is established for graduation practice in clinical workshop,

for 12 months.

Also of interest is that a score of 60 is considered a pass in

assessment, not 50. Further, to my knowledge, these scores are NOT just

straight % scores, they are moderated ranking scores. ie. only a

certain number of students can get 90+, 80+ etc. In practice, this

means that if all students get over 60% raw score, some will still be

failed after moderated rankings are made.

The university I studied at in Australia designed its program over 5

years including 26 weeks of clinical internship in China in the 5th

year. The program was a double degree Bachelor of Applied Science. The

program covered both herbal medicine and acupuncture, with more

emphasis on herbal medicine overall.

There are several Uni's here that have acupuncture and/or chinese

herbal medicine programs. Some are 4 year programs of acupuncture, with

further graduate studies available for herbal medicine and some are

combined programs of 5 years duration. I think we need more clinical

hours in our programs, and I would like to see a sizable internship in

China made compulsory along with local internships which are invaluable

to introduce us to the unique clinic conditions in the West.

Best Wishes,

Steve

On 09/03/2005, at 10:14 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

>

> At 1:09 PM +1100 3/8/05, Steven Slater wrote:

>> According to my calculations, from a purely Herbology major

>> perspective: Total 6651 hours over 5 years (6651 hours =100%)

> --

>

> Steven,

>

> Thanks to you for presenting the facts of Chinese TCM education in

> the PRC. I do have a couple of questions.

>

> Do the students at Guangzhou get a significant Summer break and

> operate on true semester system? I ask this because here in the USA

> we stuff three semesters into a year, reducing a five year program to

> 3.3 years. I doubt it would be possible for most students currently

> enrolled in TCM programs here to sustain that level on intensity for

> five years, even though the total hours is about half of that in the

> Chinese programs.

>

> How do the Australian Universty TCM programs schedule their programs

> and over what period of time?

>

> Rory

March 8, 2005

I don't know anything about the exact structure of the 7 year combined

western medical degree I mentioned below.

I do know however that " integrated chinese and western medicine " is a

VERY popular Masters major after the basic herbal medicine degree

programs. Masters and PhD level studies are where herbal medicine

majors specialize in their training ie. masters in intergrated

medicine, gynecology, pediatrics, TCM theory, Shang Han Lun etc.

Undergraduates will rarely obtain a position in a large TCM hospital

today as Tom has discussed in another thread. Most doctors in the

departments, with the exceptions of the laozhongyi, have masters

degrees or PhD's in a specialty and may use a more integrated approach

in their treatments. Western lab tests are common and antibiotics and

other western drugs are used a lot by some practitioners (sometimes for

less than therapeutic reasons - but that is another controversial

topic).

Steve

On 09/03/2005, at 10:48 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> Steven,

> What about the integratrated degree offerred by some colleges. How do

> they

> compare?

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>> Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>>

>> Re: Re: TCM University Education in China - data and

>> analysis

>> Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:43:18 +1100

>>

>> Hi Doug,

>>

>> Yes, this data is for the basic undergraduate Bachelor Degree in

>> Medicine (herbal medicine or acupuncture). A masters is a further 2 or

>> 3 years full-time. PhD's require further years after a Masters.

>>

>> This is not a degree in Western Medicine which I gather you may me

>> asking about in terms of an MD. It think that a Bachelor in Western

>> Medicine is undertaken at a Medical Uni, not a TCM Uni. Although, I

>> think some Western Medical Uni's in China offer 7 year degrees that

>> also qualify the graduates to practice baisc TCM.

>>

>> Best Wishes,

>>

>> Steve

>>>

March 8, 2005

While the idea of a Chinese internship sounds appealing requiring it would

not work out for several reasons:

1) US schools and accreditting agencies that oversee them no longer are in a

position of control or evaluation of said program.

2) reliance of your education on a potentially unknown foreign power. Fiend

today, foe tomorrow.

3) the usage of China's program does little to encourage diversity and

choice among practitioners of Japanese, Korean, five element, etc.

I do like the idea of internships just not as it was mentioned below. I

would personally like to see more of an attempt to bring together

information for classes that are top notch in the other areas of business

related to acupuncture. Few programs run any kind of serious endeavors and

expect the graduate to get this info after graduating. The truth is that

many make bad decisions without this knowledge. Healthcare in the US is

very different from anywhere else with our own rules and issues. Many fail

due to this lacking info.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Steven Slater <laozhongyi

>

>Re: Re: TCM University Education in China - data and

>analysis

>Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:28:07 +1100

>

>Hi Rory,

>

>The Guangzhou data did not specify semester and break periods. The

>chinese education system is generally more intense than that in the

>West due to the obvious competition they face with each other. I would

>say that generally, Chinese students sustain a larger degree of study

>intensity over a longer period of time than most of us could handle or

>are familiar with.

>

>I did find some information that is available from the Shanghai Uni of

>TCM regarding your query however.....

>

>The schooling period for Major of Traditional and

>Major of Acupuncture and Naprapathy is 5 years, and may extend to 7

>years, or to 8 years only after the approval by the College in the

>specific situations. The schooling period for Major of Chinese

>Pharmacology is 4 years, and may extend to 6 years, or to 7 years only

>after the approval by the College in the specific situations.

>

> From Grade 1 to Grade 4, there are three semesters in every academic

>year. The first and second semester are respectively 15 weeks (14 weeks

>for theoretical education, and 1 week for reviewing and examinations),

>the third semester is 10 weeks (5 weeks for practice, and another 5

>weeks for optional courses and examinations).

>

> Grade 5 is established for graduation practice in clinical workshop,

>for 12 months.

>

>Also of interest is that a score of 60 is considered a pass in

>assessment, not 50. Further, to my knowledge, these scores are NOT just

>straight % scores, they are moderated ranking scores. ie. only a

>certain number of students can get 90+, 80+ etc. In practice, this

>means that if all students get over 60% raw score, some will still be

>failed after moderated rankings are made.

>

>The university I studied at in Australia designed its program over 5

>years including 26 weeks of clinical internship in China in the 5th

>year. The program was a double degree Bachelor of Applied Science. The

>program covered both herbal medicine and acupuncture, with more

>emphasis on herbal medicine overall.

>

>There are several Uni's here that have acupuncture and/or chinese

>herbal medicine programs. Some are 4 year programs of acupuncture, with

>further graduate studies available for herbal medicine and some are

>combined programs of 5 years duration. I think we need more clinical

>hours in our programs, and I would like to see a sizable internship in

>China made compulsory along with local internships which are invaluable

>to introduce us to the unique clinic conditions in the West.

>

>Best Wishes,

>

>Steve

>

>On 09/03/2005, at 10:14 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

>

> >

> > At 1:09 PM +1100 3/8/05, Steven Slater wrote:

> >> According to my calculations, from a purely Herbology major

> >> perspective: Total 6651 hours over 5 years (6651 hours =100%)

> > --

> >

> > Steven,

> >

> > Thanks to you for presenting the facts of Chinese TCM education in

> > the PRC. I do have a couple of questions.

> >

> > Do the students at Guangzhou get a significant Summer break and

> > operate on true semester system? I ask this because here in the USA

> > we stuff three semesters into a year, reducing a five year program to

> > 3.3 years. I doubt it would be possible for most students currently

> > enrolled in TCM programs here to sustain that level on intensity for

> > five years, even though the total hours is about half of that in the

> > Chinese programs.

> >

> > How do the Australian Universty TCM programs schedule their programs

> > and over what period of time?

> >

> > Rory

>

March 8, 2005

Steven

I am curious about insurance coverage in Australia for acup and herbal med. The

OM programs sound quite impressive and expensive. Do graduate make a good

living? Here in the US the majority of graduates do not make it in business and

cannot support themselves by doing OM alone. Unfortunately I think it will be a

long time before we see such programs in the US.

March 8, 2005

The public health care system here does not reimburse patients for

acupuncture treatment unless they are given by an MD. I can't see this

situation changing in the near future either. However, work-cover (a

type of insurance for work related injury) does now cover acupuncture

and massage treatments for rehabilitation procedures. I am not sure as

to what degree MD's can use herbal medicine under the public health

care system.

Most private health insurance policies with " extras " now cover

acupuncture and massage therapies. Less, but a reasonable and rapidly

increasing proportion of private plans cover chinese herbal medicine

consultations (but often the cost of herbs). Unfortunately, these

policies do not usually reimburse the full treatment costs to the

patient, nor do they have a high " cap " ie. only a certain total of

refund will be given for each year (often only enough for a few return

visits).

Patients are demanding higher levels of cover for TCM therapies in

their private health care plans and are getting them slowly but surely.

Having said all that, I find most patients simply pay out of their own

pocket for most TCM treatments. This of course reduces the number of

patients we get here as many can not afford treatment for any extended

period.

TCM degrees have minimal business practice subjects and if one wishes

to make a successful clinic, they must learn a lot about business

practices, accounting etc before they dive head first into unwise

investments in a full-time clinic. As with all business, success relies

a lot on planning and not digging a financial hole for yourself that

you will never escape from in the first few years.

Many graduates take a college course in Small Business Management

before entering practice seriously.

As to making a good living...........some do, but most don't I think.

The percentage of graduates that make it in clinical practice here in

probably similar to the US, and many do it more for the " love " of it

and work part-time in TCM and work elsewhere to make additional income.

Some practitioners have VERY busy clinics and have a 6 week or more

waiting period for new patients to get in to see them. If you are good

at what you do, choose the right area to establish a clinic and can

afford to sustain your practice for the first few years until the

" word-of-mouth " system kicks in to action; I believe there is a very

good living to be made.

In regards to the expense of the programs here. University education is

undertaken with a deferred payment system ie. fees are not paid up

front, but are repaid through the tax system when your income reaches a

certain threshold. While studying undergraduate programs, students are

usually eligible for a study payment that is about the equivalent

amount of " welfare " . It is not enough to find good shelter, eat, buy

textbooks etc. and most students take part-time or casual work to

support their studies.

The " Towards a Safer Choice " paper has some date regarding these areas

and may be worth taking a look at here :

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/pdpd/chinese/report/5a.htm#5.9

5.9 Cost of Treatment and Practitioner Income

The average fee charged for a follow-up TCM consultation is $30 (S.D. +

$20). First consultation fees are variable and were not requested.

Weekly costs of TCM treatment are reported in Chapter 6 in the context

of the patient profile. Using the average fee of $30 per consultation,

the TCM workforce will turnover approximately $84,664,290 in 1996

(based on previous estimate of 2,822,143 consultations).

The average income derived from TCM practice is $17,132 (n=842). When

asked what percentage of gross total income is derived from TCM

practice, 37% stated their TCM income represented 50% or more of their

gross earnings. Large variations were recorded between primary and

non-primary TCM practitioners. These are summarised in Table 5.14.

Best Wishes,

Steve

On 09/03/2005, at 1:24 PM, wrote:

>

> Steven

> I am curious about insurance coverage in Australia for acup and herbal

> med. The OM programs sound quite impressive and expensive. Do graduate

> make a good living? Here in the US the majority of graduates do not

> make it in business and cannot support themselves by doing OM alone.

> Unfortunately I think it will be a long time before we see such

> programs in the US.

>

March 8, 2005

On 09/03/2005, at 2:17 PM, Steven Slater wrote:

> Less, but a reasonable and rapidly

> increasing proportion of private plans cover chinese herbal medicine

> consultations (but often the cost of herbs).

Correction: this should say (but often NOT the cost of herbs).

Steve

March 9, 2005

The public health care system here does not reimburse patients for

acupuncture treatment unless they are given by an MD. I can't see this

situation changing in the near future either. However, work-cover (a

type of insurance for work related injury) does now cover acupuncture

and massage treatments for rehabilitation procedures. I am not sure as

to what degree MD's can use herbal medicine under the public health

care system.

Is there malpractice suits in Australia? I woudl suspect that any insurance

company that requires undertrained providers would be open to litigation.

Perhaps a acupuncturist class action suit for restriction of trade? I know it is

a

different country, but there must a loophole that woudl require competency for

the patients sake.

Dave

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

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TCM University Education in China - data and analysis

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