Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Eric et al, What is the difference between dan4 zhong1 and xiong1 zhong1 - Wiseman uses 'chest' or 'chest center for both. -Jason tel: <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > Eric et al, > > > > What is the difference between dan4 zhong1 and xiong1 zhong1 - Wiseman uses > 'chest' or 'chest center for both. Jason, There may be more to this than I know, but I am only really aware of the term dan4 zhong1 showing up as the official point name of the acupoint CV-17 (ren 17). Xiong1 is just the common word for chest. Xiong1 shows up all the time, but I haven't seen dan4 come up besides in reference to the point (although it wouldn't really show up much in the type of books that I usually read anyway). Sorry that I can't be of much help. I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might chime in with a more complete answer. As you know, the zhong1 here just means either " in the " chest (like inside, within) or the center of the chest. So depending on context, it could be describing something that is in the chest (or felt within the chest) or it could describe the middle of the chest. Sometimes it is not totally clear even with the context. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might chime in with a more complete answer. Jason, Sounds like Eric has hit the nail on the head. The only other time I've ever seen dan zhong used besides as the proper name for a specific acupoint is in pulse correspondences for the inch position. I believe either Li Shi-zhen or Zhang Jing-yue (in any case, late Ming) say that the left inch position corresponds to dan zhong, while the right inch position corresponds to xiong zhong. In thinking about this further, my GUESS is that, in terms of the above pulse correspondences, dan zhong refers to the heart-pericardium, while xiong zhong refers to the lungs. Then why not say that? My answer would be that, perhaps, the author did not want to be that categorical. He has left wiggle room so that either position might reflect either viscus depending on the totality of the case's presentation. This is just my initial thought on this. In contemporary standard professional Chinese medicine, these have now been glossed as heart on the left and lungs on the right. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 At 04:10 AM 3/15/2005, you wrote: > , " " ><@c...> wrote: > > Eric et al, > > > > > > > > What is the difference between dan4 zhong1 and xiong1 zhong1 - >Wiseman uses > > 'chest' or 'chest center for both. > > >Jason, > >There may be more to this than I know, but I am only really aware of >the term dan4 zhong1 showing up as the official point name of the >acupoint CV-17 (ren 17). Xiong1 is just the common word for chest. >Xiong1 shows up all the time, but I haven't seen dan4 come up besides >in reference to the point (although it wouldn't really show up much in >the type of books that I usually read anyway). Sorry that I can't be >of much help. I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might >chime in with a more complete answer. >>>This is also my understanding of dan4 zhong1 (also sometimes seen as tan4 zhong1). Marnae >As you know, the zhong1 here just means either " in the " chest (like >inside, within) or the center of the chest. So depending on context, >it could be describing something that is in the chest (or felt within >the chest) or it could describe the middle of the chest. Sometimes >it is not totally clear even with the context. > >Eric > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 At 11:12 AM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might chime in with >a more complete answer. > >Jason, > >Sounds like Eric has hit the nail on the head. The only other time >I've ever seen dan zhong used besides as the proper name for a >specific acupoint is in pulse correspondences for the inch position. I >believe either Li Shi-zhen or Zhang Jing-yue (in any case, late Ming) >say that the left inch position corresponds to dan zhong, while the >right inch position corresponds to xiong zhong. > >In thinking about this further, my GUESS is that, in terms of the >above pulse correspondences, dan zhong refers to the >heart-pericardium, while xiong zhong refers to the lungs. Then why not >say that? My answer would be that, perhaps, the author did not want to >be that categorical. He has left wiggle room so that either position >might reflect either viscus depending on the totality of the case's >presentation. This is just my initial thought on this. In contemporary >standard professional Chinese medicine, these have now been glossed as >heart on the left and lungs on the right. > >Bob > > >>>Hmm interesting. I have often wondered about this and my musing > wereslightly different. I agree that dan4 zhong1 in this sense probably refers to the heart/pc - but I think it also is referring to a more specific area - between the breasts - on the chestbone, wherease xiong1 zhong1 referred to a more general area inclusive of the entire chest/thorax area. Marnae > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I agree that dan4 zhong1 in this sense probably refers to the heart/pc but I think it also is referring to a more specific area - between the breasts - on the chestbone, wherease xiong1 zhong1 referred to a more general area inclusive of the entire chest/thorax area. Marnae Maybe we're talking about the same thing. After all, the heart is located between the lobes of the lungs in the " center " of the chest. We say the heart is on the left side of the chest, but isn't it really left off center? This may be off the subject, or maybe not. Recently, I was teaching my breast disease protocol in Austria. This protocol is partly influenced by Tibetan medicine and its diagnosis of sog-lung, a psychoemtional disorder. In it, one palpates the spinous processes T4-5 as well as CV 17 (plus a number of other points). We all know that Bl 14-15 and CV 17 are used to treat both cardiac and mental-emotional diseases. I also find these sore in patients who have chronic breast disease. A German DC who was at my class said that he has also routinely found that patients with breast disease and heart disease have subluxed vertebra (and, therefore, sore spinous processes) at T 4-5. Interesting. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Thanks for contributing your interesting comments Bob and Marnae! Eric , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > I agree that dan4 zhong1 in this sense probably refers to the heart/pc > but I think it also is referring to a more specific area - between the > breasts - on the chestbone, wherease xiong1 zhong1 referred to a more > general area inclusive of the entire chest/thorax area. > > Marnae > > Maybe we're talking about the same thing. After all, the heart is > located between the lobes of the lungs in the " center " of the chest. > We say the heart is on the left side of the chest, but isn't it really > left off center? > > This may be off the subject, or maybe not. Recently, I was teaching my > breast disease protocol in Austria. This protocol is partly influenced > by Tibetan medicine and its diagnosis of sog-lung, a psychoemtional > disorder. In it, one palpates the spinous processes T4-5 as well as CV > 17 (plus a number of other points). We all know that Bl 14-15 and CV > 17 are used to treat both cardiac and mental-emotional diseases. I > also find these sore in patients who have chronic breast disease. A > German DC who was at my class said that he has also routinely found > that patients with breast disease and heart disease have subluxed > vertebra (and, therefore, sore spinous processes) at T 4-5. Interesting. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 > > Bob Flaws [pemachophel2001] > Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM > > Re: chest > > > > I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might chime in with > a more complete answer. > > Jason, > > Sounds like Eric has hit the nail on the head. The only other time > I've ever seen dan zhong used besides as the proper name for a > specific acupoint is in pulse correspondences for the inch position. I > believe either Li Shi-zhen or Zhang Jing-yue (in any case, late Ming) > say that the left inch position corresponds to dan zhong, while the > right inch position corresponds to xiong zhong. [Jason] Bob, Thanx for the input.. and yes, this is precisely the usage I am referring to, which by the way was in a modern mainstream PRC TCM Dx book... - > > In thinking about this further, my GUESS is that, in terms of the > above pulse correspondences, dan zhong refers to the > heart-pericardium, while xiong zhong refers to the lungs. Then why not > say that? My answer would be that, perhaps, the author did not want to > be that categorical. He has left wiggle room so that either position > might reflect either viscus depending on the totality of the case's > presentation. This is just my initial thought on this. In contemporary > standard professional Chinese medicine, these have now been glossed as > heart on the left and lungs on the right. > > Bob Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Many things that were classically presented have not made it into modern TCM books... Am I missing your question? -Jason > > Marco Bergh [bergh] > Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:31 PM > > Re: Re: chest > > > > Why would it not be in a " modern tcm " book? > > Marco > - > > > Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:55 PM > RE: Re: chest > > > > > > > > Bob Flaws [pemachophel2001] > > Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM > > > > Re: chest > > > > > > > > I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might chime in with > > a more complete answer. > > > > Jason, > > > > Sounds like Eric has hit the nail on the head. The only other time > > I've ever seen dan zhong used besides as the proper name for a > > specific acupoint is in pulse correspondences for the inch position. I > > believe either Li Shi-zhen or Zhang Jing-yue (in any case, late Ming) > > say that the left inch position corresponds to dan zhong, while the > > right inch position corresponds to xiong zhong. > [Jason] > Bob, > > Thanx for the input.. and yes, this is precisely the usage I am > referring > to, which by the way was in a modern mainstream PRC TCM Dx book... > > - > > > > > > In thinking about this further, my GUESS is that, in terms of the > > above pulse correspondences, dan zhong refers to the > > heart-pericardium, while xiong zhong refers to the lungs. Then why not > > say that? My answer would be that, perhaps, the author did not want to > > be that categorical. He has left wiggle room so that either position > > might reflect either viscus depending on the totality of the case's > > presentation. This is just my initial thought on this. In contemporary > > standard professional Chinese medicine, these have now been glossed as > > heart on the left and lungs on the right. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and > a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 All- Actually, now that I have the text in front of me, the reference to " tan zhong " is in Su Wen Chapter 8 (as opposed to Ling Shu). Interestingly, given the recent lines of discussion regarding emotional conditions treated with this point and the area between T4-6, Chapter 8 goes on to describe the pericardium as the " source of open gladness " (xi le chu yan). Here is my translation of that chapter.... The heart is an organ like an emperor and is the source of spirit light The lung organ is like a prime minister and is the source of administration The liver, the general of the organs, is the source of strategies and planning The gallbladder is an upright organ and the source of decisions The pericardium is the secretary organ and the source of open gladness The spleen-stomach are organs like the granaries and are the source of the body’s flavor The large intestine is an organ of transmission and the source of transformation The small intestine is an organ of assimilation and the source of modifications The kidney is the organ of forceful accomplishment and the source of mysterious ability The san jiao is an organ that opens the ditches and the source of the paths of water The urinary bladder is an organ that administrates the waterways, storing up fluids and ultimately dependant on qi dynamic for its source. The term “tan zhong” (tan zhong) in this case is translated as pericardium. Later texts began to refer to the organ by the more common “xin bao” (xin bao) that is used in modern CM. Respectfully, Jason Robertson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Why would it not be in a " modern tcm " book? Marco - Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:55 PM RE: Re: chest > > Bob Flaws [pemachophel2001] > Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM > > Re: chest > > > > I'll ask Nigel or maybe Bob Flaws or Marnae Ergil might chime in with > a more complete answer. > > Jason, > > Sounds like Eric has hit the nail on the head. The only other time > I've ever seen dan zhong used besides as the proper name for a > specific acupoint is in pulse correspondences for the inch position. I > believe either Li Shi-zhen or Zhang Jing-yue (in any case, late Ming) > say that the left inch position corresponds to dan zhong, while the > right inch position corresponds to xiong zhong. [Jason] Bob, Thanx for the input.. and yes, this is precisely the usage I am referring to, which by the way was in a modern mainstream PRC TCM Dx book... - > > In thinking about this further, my GUESS is that, in terms of the > above pulse correspondences, dan zhong refers to the > heart-pericardium, while xiong zhong refers to the lungs. Then why not > say that? My answer would be that, perhaps, the author did not want to > be that categorical. He has left wiggle room so that either position > might reflect either viscus depending on the totality of the case's > presentation. This is just my initial thought on this. In contemporary > standard professional Chinese medicine, these have now been glossed as > heart on the left and lungs on the right. > > Bob > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Hi, The " process " is understanding how it helps our patience... That would be the crux of knowing... Since I am not sure I ask those before... Marco Bergh - Eric Brand Tuesday, March 15, 2005 3:37 PM Re: chest Thanks for contributing your interesting comments Bob and Marnae! Eric , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > I agree that dan4 zhong1 in this sense probably refers to the heart/pc > but I think it also is referring to a more specific area - between the > breasts - on the chestbone, wherease xiong1 zhong1 referred to a more > general area inclusive of the entire chest/thorax area. > > Marnae > > Maybe we're talking about the same thing. After all, the heart is > located between the lobes of the lungs in the " center " of the chest. > We say the heart is on the left side of the chest, but isn't it really > left off center? > > This may be off the subject, or maybe not. Recently, I was teaching my > breast disease protocol in Austria. This protocol is partly influenced > by Tibetan medicine and its diagnosis of sog-lung, a psychoemtional > disorder. In it, one palpates the spinous processes T4-5 as well as CV > 17 (plus a number of other points). We all know that Bl 14-15 and CV > 17 are used to treat both cardiac and mental-emotional diseases. I > also find these sore in patients who have chronic breast disease. A > German DC who was at my class said that he has also routinely found > that patients with breast disease and heart disease have subluxed > vertebra (and, therefore, sore spinous processes) at T 4-5. Interesting. > > Bob Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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