Guest guest Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Hi All, There is a nasty virus going around here that goes to the ears and sticks around for months seeming to get better and then coming back. I have several patients with varying degrees of this virus. It seems to be a windheat that moves to the ears and becomes toxic heat. Interestingly, none of them have much in the way of phlegm. For the most part their noses are clear. However, there has been neck pain and headaches, and in one case a sore throat. Anyone have any ideas to share on treating this? I'm looking for a base formula to use. I'm thinking about using Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and adding some herbs for toxic heat like Ban Lan Gan, Da Qing Ye, and Zi Hua Di Ding. Then I will add herbs like Ge Gen and Man Jing Zi and Ju Hua for the head and neck. Any ideas? One thing I'm wondering about is whether to add phlegm resolving herbs, and if so, what herbs? It seems that there must be phlegm, but its really not very apparent. I'm thinking it must be a liver/gallbladder phlegmheat thing rather than being in the lungs...does that make sense? If so, what herbs? I'm not particularly advanced at treating colds and flus past the first stage with herbs, so any ideas at all would be greatly appreciated. By the way--its definitely a virus rather than a bacteria as evidenced by the fact that one of them has been on two different antibiotics without clearing it up. Thanks in advance. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 I want to throw in a couple more specific questions-- 1. I have thought of adding a little Da Huang to guide the heat out. Anyone know if that's a good idea for this kind of thing? 2. Since this has stuck around for several months I am thinking of adding Ren Shen to help the body kick it out, but I'm not sure if that's a timely choice. All of these patients actually seem relatively sturdy, in their 30's, professionals....STRESSED OUT professionals (really makes you think of the liver/gallbladder, huh?). 3. So if this is more liver/gallbladder, how much should I still focus on the lungs with herbs like Jie Geng, Xing Ren, Zhe Bei Mu etc.? I know without seeing the patients you can only have so much to say, but any thoughts might help. Laura , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > There is a nasty virus going around here that goes to the ears and > sticks around for months seeming to get better and then coming back. > I have several patients with varying degrees of this virus. It seems > to be a windheat that moves to the ears and becomes toxic heat. > Interestingly, none of them have much in the way of phlegm. For the > most part their noses are clear. However, there has been neck pain and > headaches, and in one case a sore throat. Anyone have any ideas to > share on treating this? I'm looking for a base formula to use. I'm > thinking about using Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and adding some herbs for > toxic heat like Ban Lan Gan, Da Qing Ye, and Zi Hua Di Ding. Then I > will add herbs like Ge Gen and Man Jing Zi and Ju Hua for the head and > neck. > > Any ideas? One thing I'm wondering about is whether to add phlegm > resolving herbs, and if so, what herbs? It seems that there must be > phlegm, but its really not very apparent. I'm thinking it must be a > liver/gallbladder phlegmheat thing rather than being in the > lungs...does that make sense? If so, what herbs? > > I'm not particularly advanced at treating colds and flus past the > first stage with herbs, so any ideas at all would be greatly > appreciated. By the way--its definitely a virus rather than a > bacteria as evidenced by the fact that one of them has been on two > different antibiotics without clearing it up. > > Thanks in advance. > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 I don't think you can rule out bacteria with sinus infections as the sinuses themselves tend to provide bacterial reservoirs. I have treated a number of chronic sinus infections (usually manifesting with ear and post nasal drip sx, not a lot of frontal sinus blockage) with a combination of internal herbs and saline rinsing with a neti pot. I have personally used powdered goldenseal with neti, but it is incredibly bitter (sort of a huang lian all-day-sucker) and I think compliance would be a serious problem for the average patient. Diet is often important, increasing fluids, eliminating dairy, etc. Another approach is steaming with herbs (acrid wind releasers, and nasal openers), but I've found the neti works best. There are cheap starter neti pot kits (wholesale is under $10 for a plastic pot with a bunch of premade salt and baking soda packets) available from Sinucleanse, and of course, you can find them at almost any health food emporium (tend to be nicer pots, ceramic, metal, novel shapes and colors, but cost $20 and up). The saline balance is about 1/4 tsp salt (non-iodized) to 1 cup water, if your excited about it you can also add 1/8 tsp baking soda for pH balance, though it doesn't make a huge difference in the sensation. Par - " heylaurag " <heylaurag Friday, March 18, 2005 4:12 AM Windheat turning to Ear infections > > > Hi All, > > There is a nasty virus going around here that goes to the ears and > sticks around for months seeming to get better and then coming back. > I have several patients with varying degrees of this virus. It seems > to be a windheat that moves to the ears and becomes toxic heat. > Interestingly, none of them have much in the way of phlegm. For the > most part their noses are clear. However, there has been neck pain and > headaches, and in one case a sore throat. Anyone have any ideas to > share on treating this? I'm looking for a base formula to use. I'm > thinking about using Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and adding some herbs for > toxic heat like Ban Lan Gan, Da Qing Ye, and Zi Hua Di Ding. Then I > will add herbs like Ge Gen and Man Jing Zi and Ju Hua for the head and > neck. > > Any ideas? One thing I'm wondering about is whether to add phlegm > resolving herbs, and if so, what herbs? It seems that there must be > phlegm, but its really not very apparent. I'm thinking it must be a > liver/gallbladder phlegmheat thing rather than being in the > lungs...does that make sense? If so, what herbs? > > I'm not particularly advanced at treating colds and flus past the > first stage with herbs, so any ideas at all would be greatly > appreciated. By the way--its definitely a virus rather than a > bacteria as evidenced by the fact that one of them has been on two > different antibiotics without clearing it up. > > Thanks in advance. > > Laura > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Hi Par, I really appreciate your response. The only reason I'm ruling out bacteria is that one of my patients has been on two different antibiotics for an extended period of time and they didn't help (or maybe they helped a little, but its hard to know because presumably he would have gotten a little better over time anyway). I think the netty pot is a really good call. I have this idea that internal herbs are going to be stronger, but that may not be true---I've heard an awful lot of people get results with netty pots. About how many time a day would you recommend? Laura , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote: > I don't think you can rule out bacteria with sinus infections as the sinuses > themselves tend to provide bacterial reservoirs. I have treated a number of > chronic sinus infections (usually manifesting with ear and post nasal drip > sx, not a lot of frontal sinus blockage) with a combination of internal > herbs and saline rinsing with a neti pot. I have personally used powdered > goldenseal with neti, but it is incredibly bitter (sort of a huang lian > all-day-sucker) and I think compliance would be a serious problem for the > average patient. Diet is often important, increasing fluids, eliminating > dairy, etc. Another approach is steaming with herbs (acrid wind releasers, > and nasal openers), but I've found the neti works best. There are cheap > starter neti pot kits (wholesale is under $10 for a plastic pot with a bunch > of premade salt and baking soda packets) available from Sinucleanse, and of > course, you can find them at almost any health food emporium (tend to be > nicer pots, ceramic, metal, novel shapes and colors, but cost $20 and up). > The saline balance is about 1/4 tsp salt (non-iodized) to 1 cup water, if > your excited about it you can also add 1/8 tsp baking soda for pH balance, > though it doesn't make a huge difference in the sensation. > > Par > > - > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > Friday, March 18, 2005 4:12 AM > Windheat turning to Ear infections > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > There is a nasty virus going around here that goes to the ears and > > sticks around for months seeming to get better and then coming back. > > I have several patients with varying degrees of this virus. It seems > > to be a windheat that moves to the ears and becomes toxic heat. > > Interestingly, none of them have much in the way of phlegm. For the > > most part their noses are clear. However, there has been neck pain and > > headaches, and in one case a sore throat. Anyone have any ideas to > > share on treating this? I'm looking for a base formula to use. I'm > > thinking about using Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and adding some herbs for > > toxic heat like Ban Lan Gan, Da Qing Ye, and Zi Hua Di Ding. Then I > > will add herbs like Ge Gen and Man Jing Zi and Ju Hua for the head and > > neck. > > > > Any ideas? One thing I'm wondering about is whether to add phlegm > > resolving herbs, and if so, what herbs? It seems that there must be > > phlegm, but its really not very apparent. I'm thinking it must be a > > liver/gallbladder phlegmheat thing rather than being in the > > lungs...does that make sense? If so, what herbs? > > > > I'm not particularly advanced at treating colds and flus past the > > first stage with herbs, so any ideas at all would be greatly > > appreciated. By the way--its definitely a virus rather than a > > bacteria as evidenced by the fact that one of them has been on two > > different antibiotics without clearing it up. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 The HP sounds great and I've used it in past also. Gargling, for example. Just have to chime in with my all-time favorite, which, since you didn't mention i am kind of assuming you didn't try, namely garlic oil. Can purchase it in vitamin/health food store(Herbs, Etc. has a nice one with mullein as well) or make your own with olive oil with garlic juice added. Garlic, as we know, kills bacteria, viruses, fungi and repels those ever-unpopular vampires. (Does that mean only superior beings who are really nice, tolerant --or olfactorily challenged -- will stay anywhere near you? ;-) (See previous posts for discussion of resolving latter problem. :-) :-) (mini-problem?) Ann Hi All, There is a nasty virus going around here that goes to the ears and sticks around for months seeming to get better and then coming back. I have several patients with varying degrees of this virus. It seems to be a windheat that moves to the ears and becomes toxic heat. Interestingly, none of them have much in the way of phlegm. For the most part their noses are clear. However, there has been neck pain and headaches, and in one case a sore throat. Anyone have any ideas to share on treating this? I'm looking for a base formula to use. I'm thinking about using Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and adding some herbs for toxic heat like Ban Lan Gan, Da Qing Ye, and Zi Hua Di Ding. Then I will add herbs like Ge Gen and Man Jing Zi and Ju Hua for the head and neck. Any ideas? One thing I'm wondering about is whether to add phlegm resolving herbs, and if so, what herbs? It seems that there must be phlegm, but its really not very apparent. I'm thinking it must be a liver/gallbladder phlegmheat thing rather than being in the lungs...does that make sense? If so, what herbs? I'm not particularly advanced at treating colds and flus past the first stage with herbs, so any ideas at all would be greatly appreciated. By the way--its definitely a virus rather than a bacteria as evidenced by the fact that one of them has been on two different antibiotics without clearing it up. Thanks in advance. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Laura, Can you share some pulses and tongues with us? It would help a lot. A few questions, seeing as this pattern would probably be in the realm of warm disease: 1) What part of the country/world are you? What was the weather like when people contracted this evil? What time of year? 2) Type of fever/heat effusion, worse at what time of day? 3) Urination: dark, clear, scanty, copious? 4) Changes in digestion, appetite? 5) Fatigue? Unless there is a red tongue, greasy coating, and wiry pulse, I wouldn't use long dan xie gan tang. Also, for toxic heat, there should be signs of discharge or swelling, such as glandular swelling. Also, while a few of the medicinals you listed (zi hua di ding, ban lan gen or others) may be useful, be careful of using too many bitter cold medicinals as they could 'freeze' the evil qi. Some wind-heat dispersing medicinals that are acrid may be useful, and depending on damage to yin, yin supplementing medicinals as well such as xuan shen. We need to narrow down a number of variables here in order to prescribe accurately. Take care, On Mar 18, 2005, at 8:44 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi Par, > > I really appreciate your response. The only reason I'm ruling out > bacteria is that one of my patients has been on two different > antibiotics for an extended period of time and they didn't help (or > maybe they helped a little, but its hard to know because presumably he > would have gotten a little better over time anyway). > > I think the netty pot is a really good call. I have this idea that > internal herbs are going to be stronger, but that may not be > true---I've heard an awful lot of people get results with netty pots. > About how many time a day would you recommend? > > Laura > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2005 Report Share Posted March 19, 2005 Hi Laura, If there is thick mucous I recommend using it as often as required to keep breathing normal and prevent coughing and throat clearing due to post nasal drip (for instance, when I had a cold recently I used it 3-5 times per day, which may prove problematic for the average patient, they won't do it unless they get a fair amount of relief). I found it works best for post nasal drip and situations with thick mucus, and less well with watery thin mucus. The only reason that I doubt your assessment of the antibiotics situation is that most of the sinus infection cases that I have treated have lived on them for longer or shorter periods of time. The sinus is a perfect way to isolate bacteria from the blood supply in a pile of mucus, so unless they are using some sort of antibacterial lavage that I'm unfamiliar with I think chances are good it is bacterial. To some extent it is moot anyhow. I would attack on two fronts, neti pots are useful as a daily hygenic practice anyhow and internal herbs will do things that they obviously can't, I wasn't at all suggesting an either/or type thing. Par - " heylaurag " <heylaurag Friday, March 18, 2005 11:44 AM Re: Windheat turning to Ear infections > > > Hi Par, > > I really appreciate your response. The only reason I'm ruling out > bacteria is that one of my patients has been on two different > antibiotics for an extended period of time and they didn't help (or > maybe they helped a little, but its hard to know because presumably he > would have gotten a little better over time anyway). > > I think the netty pot is a really good call. I have this idea that > internal herbs are going to be stronger, but that may not be > true---I've heard an awful lot of people get results with netty pots. > About how many time a day would you recommend? > > Laura > > > > > , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> > wrote: >> I don't think you can rule out bacteria with sinus infections as the > sinuses >> themselves tend to provide bacterial reservoirs. I have treated a > number of >> chronic sinus infections (usually manifesting with ear and post > nasal drip >> sx, not a lot of frontal sinus blockage) with a combination of internal >> herbs and saline rinsing with a neti pot. I have personally used > powdered >> goldenseal with neti, but it is incredibly bitter (sort of a huang lian >> all-day-sucker) and I think compliance would be a serious problem > for the >> average patient. Diet is often important, increasing fluids, > eliminating >> dairy, etc. Another approach is steaming with herbs (acrid wind > releasers, >> and nasal openers), but I've found the neti works best. There are > cheap >> starter neti pot kits (wholesale is under $10 for a plastic pot with > a bunch >> of premade salt and baking soda packets) available from Sinucleanse, > and of >> course, you can find them at almost any health food emporium (tend > to be >> nicer pots, ceramic, metal, novel shapes and colors, but cost $20 > and up). >> The saline balance is about 1/4 tsp salt (non-iodized) to 1 cup > water, if >> your excited about it you can also add 1/8 tsp baking soda for pH > balance, >> though it doesn't make a huge difference in the sensation. >> >> Par >> >> - >> " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> >> >> Friday, March 18, 2005 4:12 AM >> Windheat turning to Ear infections >> >> >> > >> > >> > Hi All, >> > >> > There is a nasty virus going around here that goes to the ears and >> > sticks around for months seeming to get better and then coming back. >> > I have several patients with varying degrees of this virus. It seems >> > to be a windheat that moves to the ears and becomes toxic heat. >> > Interestingly, none of them have much in the way of phlegm. For the >> > most part their noses are clear. However, there has been neck pain and >> > headaches, and in one case a sore throat. Anyone have any ideas to >> > share on treating this? I'm looking for a base formula to use. I'm >> > thinking about using Long Dan Xie Gan Tang and adding some herbs for >> > toxic heat like Ban Lan Gan, Da Qing Ye, and Zi Hua Di Ding. Then I >> > will add herbs like Ge Gen and Man Jing Zi and Ju Hua for the head and >> > neck. >> > >> > Any ideas? One thing I'm wondering about is whether to add phlegm >> > resolving herbs, and if so, what herbs? It seems that there must be >> > phlegm, but its really not very apparent. I'm thinking it must be a >> > liver/gallbladder phlegmheat thing rather than being in the >> > lungs...does that make sense? If so, what herbs? >> > >> > I'm not particularly advanced at treating colds and flus past the >> > first stage with herbs, so any ideas at all would be greatly >> > appreciated. By the way--its definitely a virus rather than a >> > bacteria as evidenced by the fact that one of them has been on two >> > different antibiotics without clearing it up. >> > >> > Thanks in advance. >> > >> > Laura >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including >> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference > and a >> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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