Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a southwest vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. Frances >Why wouldn't she get a degree with serious supervised clinical training? >This subject cannot be learned in a few weeks nor practiced effectively in >such a short time. She can almost attend a lower level school for that >amount of money and she will still get more for her money. >This has got to be a joke yet it appears to be typical of a strange mindset, >our professional training is not respected yet their MD make acupuncture >programs better. >I recently reviewed, for potential publishing, a manuscript (more like an >outline with no references listed) of a TCM herbal text on western herbs >written by a MD. It was a joke. The writer pulled out common western herbs >and listed their energetics. These were incomplete and had no cautions, >contraindications or even combinations. I suggested the editor look at >Bensky's Materia Medica for a serious body of knowledge on the topic. The >sad thing about this company in general is that all of their published texts >are written by MD. I have suggested to them the importance of publishing >books written by knowledgable scholars in our field. I also made a remark >about the unpopularity of the medical acupuncturist with the L Ac community. > I wonder how many people out there just do not get the difference and are >lulled into the false hope created by their MD's. The dummy down of >education continues. >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > >>>frances gander <threetreasures >>> >>> >>> Weil M.D. training >>>Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:56:02 -0500 >>> >>>Just heard from a local doc about a program Andrew Weil is offering for >>>M.D.'s. Two years of distance learning with a 3-week on-site session; >>>includes nutrition, acupuncture, Chinese and western herbs, >>>manipulation, and energy work. Cost $27,000. It's called an associate >>>fellowship. It is very popular and she will take it along with many docs >> >> >>from around the country. > > >>> >>>Frances Gander >>>Athens, Ohio >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 I wonder who they have teaching in this program. How could a TCM practitioner of any credibility agree to participate in such a dilution of the medicine? Not to mention the potential harm to patients--and to our profession--of correspondance-school trained acupuncturists/herbalists with no real supervised clinical experience. --Sarah , frances gander <threetreasures@f...> wrote: > Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she > goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep > working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a southwest > vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. > > Frances > > >Why wouldn't she get a degree with serious supervised clinical training? > >This subject cannot be learned in a few weeks nor practiced effectively in > >such a short time. She can almost attend a lower level school for that > >amount of money and she will still get more for her money. > >This has got to be a joke yet it appears to be typical of a strange mindset, > >our professional training is not respected yet their MD make acupuncture > >programs better. > >I recently reviewed, for potential publishing, a manuscript (more like an > >outline with no references listed) of a TCM herbal text on western herbs > >written by a MD. It was a joke. The writer pulled out common western herbs > >and listed their energetics. These were incomplete and had no cautions, > >contraindications or even combinations. I suggested the editor look at > >Bensky's Materia Medica for a serious body of knowledge on the topic. The > >sad thing about this company in general is that all of their published texts > >are written by MD. I have suggested to them the importance of publishing > >books written by knowledgable scholars in our field. I also made a remark > >about the unpopularity of the medical acupuncturist with the L Ac community. > > I wonder how many people out there just do not get the difference and are > >lulled into the false hope created by their MD's. The dummy down of > >education continues. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > >>>frances gander <threetreasures@f...> > >>> > >>> > >>> Weil M.D. training > >>>Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:56:02 -0500 > >>> > >>>Just heard from a local doc about a program Andrew Weil is offering for > >>>M.D.'s. Two years of distance learning with a 3-week on-site session; > >>>includes nutrition, acupuncture, Chinese and western herbs, > >>>manipulation, and energy work. Cost $27,000. It's called an associate > >>>fellowship. It is very popular and she will take it along with many docs > >> > >> > >>from around the country. > > > > > >>> > >>>Frances Gander > >>>Athens, Ohio > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 I'm not sure this is as insidious as it looks. My best friend did the full time residential fellowship that takes two years. He got a lot of exposure to different treatment modalities, and heads an CAM unit at a medical center where he makes referrals for meditation, nutritional consults, yoga, acu, herbs. He also tries to educate the other docs about CAM. But he doesn't do any hands-on treatment himself - he's basically an enlightened MD internist. BTW, the associate fellowship only accepts ~50 docs a year. -Mike > Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she > goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep > working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a southwest > vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. > > Frances > >>Why wouldn't she get a degree with serious supervised clinical training? >>This subject cannot be learned in a few weeks nor practiced effectively >> in >>such a short time. She can almost attend a lower level school for that >>amount of money and she will still get more for her money. >>This has got to be a joke yet it appears to be typical of a strange >> mindset, >>our professional training is not respected yet their MD make acupuncture >>programs better. >>I recently reviewed, for potential publishing, a manuscript (more like an >>outline with no references listed) of a TCM herbal text on western herbs >>written by a MD. It was a joke. The writer pulled out common western >> herbs >>and listed their energetics. These were incomplete and had no cautions, >>contraindications or even combinations. I suggested the editor look at >>Bensky's Materia Medica for a serious body of knowledge on the topic. >> The >>sad thing about this company in general is that all of their published >> texts >>are written by MD. I have suggested to them the importance of publishing >>books written by knowledgable scholars in our field. I also made a >> remark >>about the unpopularity of the medical acupuncturist with the L Ac >> community. >> I wonder how many people out there just do not get the difference and >> are >>lulled into the false hope created by their MD's. The dummy down of >>education continues. >>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> >> >> >>>>frances gander <threetreasures >>>> >>>> >>>> Weil M.D. training >>>>Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:56:02 -0500 >>>> >>>>Just heard from a local doc about a program Andrew Weil is offering for >>>>M.D.'s. Two years of distance learning with a 3-week on-site session; >>>>includes nutrition, acupuncture, Chinese and western herbs, >>>>manipulation, and energy work. Cost $27,000. It's called an associate >>>>fellowship. It is very popular and she will take it along with many >>>> docs >>> >>> >>>from around the country. >> >> >>>> >>>>Frances Gander >>>>Athens, Ohio >>> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 I think you are right. I've gotten referrals from the Weil clinic and they very much respect Chinese medicine, and are not, to my knowledge, trying to 'cash in' on a cheap and dirty training to fool the public into thinking they are Chinese herbalists. On Mar 22, 2005, at 6:34 AM, mshort wrote: > > > I'm not sure this is as insidious as it looks. My best friend did the > full > time residential fellowship that takes two years. He got a lot of > exposure > to different treatment modalities, and heads an CAM unit at a medical > center where he makes referrals for meditation, nutritional consults, > yoga, acu, herbs. He also tries to educate the other docs about CAM. > But > he doesn't do any hands-on treatment himself - he's basically an > enlightened MD internist. > > BTW, the associate fellowship only accepts ~50 docs a year. > > -Mike > > > >> Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she >> goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep >> working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a >> southwest >> vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. >> >> Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I think you are right. I've gotten referrals from the Weil clinic and > they very much respect Chinese medicine, and are not, to my knowledge, > trying to 'cash in' on a cheap and dirty training to fool the public > into thinking they are Chinese herbalists. > > > On Mar 22, 2005, at 6:34 AM, mshort@z... wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is as insidious as it looks. My best friend did the > > full > > time residential fellowship that takes two years. He got a lot of > > exposure > > to different treatment modalities, and heads an CAM unit at a medical > > center where he makes referrals for meditation, nutritional consults, > > yoga, acu, herbs. He also tries to educate the other docs about CAM. > > But > > he doesn't do any hands-on treatment himself - he's basically an > > enlightened MD internist. > > > > BTW, the associate fellowship only accepts ~50 docs a year. > > > > -Mike > > > > > > > >> Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she > >> goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep > >> working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a > >> southwest > >> vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. > >> > >> Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 I've had several MD's as patients and students. Except for one none of them now practices just because the economics of time doesn't make it nearly profitable enough for them. Some times I'm encouraged by this and then sometimes discouraged.... doug , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I think you are right. I've gotten referrals from the Weil clinic and > they very much respect Chinese medicine, and are not, to my knowledge, > trying to 'cash in' on a cheap and dirty training to fool the public > into thinking they are Chinese herbalists. > > > On Mar 22, 2005, at 6:34 AM, mshort@z... wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not sure this is as insidious as it looks. My best friend did the > > full > > time residential fellowship that takes two years. He got a lot of > > exposure > > to different treatment modalities, and heads an CAM unit at a medical > > center where he makes referrals for meditation, nutritional consults, > > yoga, acu, herbs. He also tries to educate the other docs about CAM. > > But > > he doesn't do any hands-on treatment himself - he's basically an > > enlightened MD internist. > > > > BTW, the associate fellowship only accepts ~50 docs a year. > > > > -Mike > > > > > > > >> Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she > >> goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep > >> working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a > >> southwest > >> vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. > >> > >> Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 They may not get a lot of hands on but if our students only manage 6 internal med patients before graduating well i think we are no better. At least these are trained physicians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 I remember that a fellow graduate had actually helped the NBCE (chiro board) in writing the first 100 hour acupuncture exam for their own test. I think we tend to sell ourselves out too easily. None of these abreviated courses adequately preps one to practice let alone hold themselves out to the public that they practice acupuncture etc. The state of Hawaii has it right when it made rules that do not allow for MD to practice with any less hours than L Ac. By making pulbic the differences in education and clinical training is the only way to economically eliminate these jokes. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " saydit " <saydit > > > Re: Weil M.D. training >Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:04:50 -0000 > > > >I wonder who they have teaching in this program. How could a TCM >practitioner of any >credibility agree to participate in such a dilution of the medicine? Not to >mention the >potential harm to patients--and to our profession--of correspondance-school >trained >acupuncturists/herbalists with no real supervised clinical experience. > >--Sarah > > , frances gander ><threetreasures@f...> >wrote: > > Some get the difference; some don't . Despite many discussions, she > > goes to this dumbed down, big-name program. Anyway, they can keep > > working while doing the distance-learning part and then take a southwest > > vacation for 3-weeks to do a little hands-on. > > > > Frances > > > > >Why wouldn't she get a degree with serious supervised clinical >training? > > >This subject cannot be learned in a few weeks nor practiced effectively >in > > >such a short time. She can almost attend a lower level school for that > > >amount of money and she will still get more for her money. > > >This has got to be a joke yet it appears to be typical of a strange >mindset, > > >our professional training is not respected yet their MD make >acupuncture > > >programs better. > > >I recently reviewed, for potential publishing, a manuscript (more like >an > > >outline with no references listed) of a TCM herbal text on western >herbs > > >written by a MD. It was a joke. The writer pulled out common western >herbs > > >and listed their energetics. These were incomplete and had no >cautions, > > >contraindications or even combinations. I suggested the editor look at > > >Bensky's Materia Medica for a serious body of knowledge on the topic. >The > > >sad thing about this company in general is that all of their published >texts > > >are written by MD. I have suggested to them the importance of >publishing > > >books written by knowledgable scholars in our field. I also made a >remark > > >about the unpopularity of the medical acupuncturist with the L Ac >community. > > > I wonder how many people out there just do not get the difference and >are > > >lulled into the false hope created by their MD's. The dummy down of > > >education continues. > > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > >>>frances gander <threetreasures@f...> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Weil M.D. training > > >>>Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:56:02 -0500 > > >>> > > >>>Just heard from a local doc about a program Andrew Weil is offering >for > > >>>M.D.'s. Two years of distance learning with a 3-week on-site >session; > > >>>includes nutrition, acupuncture, Chinese and western herbs, > > >>>manipulation, and energy work. Cost $27,000. It's called an >associate > > >>>fellowship. It is very popular and she will take it along with many >docs > > >> > > >> > > >>from around the country. > > > > > > > > >>> > > >>>Frances Gander > > >>>Athens, Ohio > > >> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 This type of thing is very regrettable. I think that such individuals owe some accountability to the profession, and shouldn't be acting on their own like this. It undercuts our efforts to provide quality care to the public. On Mar 23, 2005, at 6:56 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > I remember that a fellow graduate had actually helped the NBCE (chiro > board) > in writing the first 100 hour acupuncture exam for their own test. I > think > we tend to sell ourselves out too easily. None of these abreviated > courses > adequately preps one to practice let alone hold themselves out to the > public > that they practice acupuncture etc. The state of Hawaii has it right > when > it made rules that do not allow for MD to practice with any less hours > than > L Ac. By making pulbic the differences in education and clinical > training > is the only way to economically eliminate these jokes. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 Zev, I could not agree with you more. It is even harder when she is a fellow alumni. I think that grads sometimes take on jobs and positions due to economics which is why we need to start to answer the needs by creating intern clinics. What say you? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: Re: Weil M.D. training >Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:31:09 -0800 > >This type of thing is very regrettable. I think that such individuals >owe some accountability to the profession, and shouldn't be acting on >their own like this. It undercuts our efforts to provide quality care >to the public. > > >On Mar 23, 2005, at 6:56 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > I remember that a fellow graduate had actually helped the NBCE (chiro > > board) > > in writing the first 100 hour acupuncture exam for their own test. I > > think > > we tend to sell ourselves out too easily. None of these abreviated > > courses > > adequately preps one to practice let alone hold themselves out to the > > public > > that they practice acupuncture etc. The state of Hawaii has it right > > when > > it made rules that do not allow for MD to practice with any less hours > > than > > L Ac. By making pulbic the differences in education and clinical > > training > > is the only way to economically eliminate these jokes. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 I think intern clinics are a great idea, but a very controversial one. We'll have to see how this plays out in real time, and what the California legislature decides to do. In the meantime, I'll continue to keep a few new practitioners 'under my wing' and help them get going. On Mar 25, 2005, at 11:54 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > Zev, > I could not agree with you more. It is even harder when she is a > fellow > alumni. I think that grads sometimes take on jobs and positions due to > economics which is why we need to start to answer the needs by creating > intern clinics. What say you? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Zev, Got room for one more, maybe in say 3 years? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: Re: Weil M.D. training >Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:38:00 -0800 > >I think intern clinics are a great idea, but a very controversial one. >We'll have to see how this plays out in real time, and what the >California legislature decides to do. In the meantime, I'll continue >to keep a few new practitioners 'under my wing' and help them get >going. > > >On Mar 25, 2005, at 11:54 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Zev, > > I could not agree with you more. It is even harder when she is a > > fellow > > alumni. I think that grads sometimes take on jobs and positions due to > > economics which is why we need to start to answer the needs by creating > > intern clinics. What say you? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Check with me then. Too far in the future to think about it. Z'ev On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:18 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev, > > Got room for one more, maybe in say 3 years? > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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