Guest guest Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 To all, I know this an herb group but most of us also use needles. The recent mention of needle size brought up a question that many of my students ask. They have previously been taught to only use 36 gauge needles and I tend to use 32 gauge. Being the " new teacher on the block " here this brings up some questions, like what do other practitioners do? I can only answer that in part based on what I have observed. I would appreciate it if you could take a few moments to answer the question below. What size needles do you use for " regular " everyday needling of body points (i.e. zu san li (ST36), he gu (LI4), etc) on the average person? I'm not asking about facial needling or ear needling, per se, although I would be interested to hear about that as well. I am also interested to hear about your style of insertion. Do you use free-hand, tube, spinning of the needle, etc? Also what do you do with your non-needling hand while inserting the needle? You can email me privately if it would be best for the concerns of the list. Thank you for your time, Professor of Chinese Internal Medicine World Medicine Institute Honolulu, HI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 NO, this is an important subject so please post the different styles for everyone's benefit, and so we can learn. Yehuda On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:35:07 -0700 (PDT) writes: > You can email me privately if it would be best for the concerns of > the list. > > Thank you for your time, > > > > > > > Professor of Chinese Internal Medicine > World Medicine Institute > Honolulu, HI > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Thomas - I use 30 - 32 guage for " regular " needling unless the patient is elderly, young (children) or especially weak I do primarily free hand needling which is also what we teach and emphasize at Touro College. (Unless I am doing a specific technique like ion-pumping cords that requires a very surface insertion of a very thin needle) The non - needling hand is probably more important than the needling hand. It is the root. It is always placed on the body near the site of insertion. If necessary it is used to stretch or pinch the skin but it should always be on the body. I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good needling technique. Practitioners are becoming dependent on tubes (and often on expensive needles) and I believe that they don't really know how to use a tube properly either. Tubes were developed in Japan for use by blind acupuncturists who could find the point by palpation but needed the tube to help guide the needle in. Proper use of tubes requires as much practice as proper free hand needling - just hitting the needle on the head and pushing it through the tube is not how they should be used. I can go on about this and will do so privately if you would like me to. Marnae At 02:35 PM 4/7/2005, you wrote: >To all, > >I know this an herb group but most of us also use needles. The recent >mention of needle size brought up a question that many of my students ask. >They have previously been taught to only use 36 gauge needles and I tend >to use 32 gauge. Being the " new teacher on the block " here this brings up >some questions, like what do other practitioners do? I can only answer >that in part based on what I have observed. I would appreciate it if you >could take a few moments to answer the question below. > >What size needles do you use for " regular " everyday needling of body >points (i.e. zu san li (ST36), he gu (LI4), etc) on the average person? >I'm not asking about facial needling or ear needling, per se, although I >would be interested to hear about that as well. > >I am also interested to hear about your style of insertion. Do you use >free-hand, tube, spinning of the needle, etc? Also what do you do with >your non-needling hand while inserting the needle? > >You can email me privately if it would be best for the concerns of the list. > >Thank you for your time, > > > > > > >Professor of Chinese Internal Medicine >World Medicine Institute >Honolulu, HI > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hi Marnae As far as I'm concerned you may continue this on-line ;-) I wuold be very much interested in hearing more about proper needling techniques, which I find a bit lacking in my education. Best wishes Alwin , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > Thomas - .... > I can go > on about this and will do so privately if you would like me to. > > Marnae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hi Marnae, I'd like to hear what you have to say also. If you wish to not clutter the CHA list with needling-related posts, please include me in your private posts. Thank you, Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: Thomas - I use 30 - 32 guage for " regular " needling unless the patient is elderly, young (children) or especially weak I do primarily free hand needling which is also what we teach and emphasize at Touro College. (Unless I am doing a specific technique like ion-pumping cords that requires a very surface insertion of a very thin needle) The non - needling hand is probably more important than the needling hand. It is the root. It is always placed on the body near the site of insertion. If necessary it is used to stretch or pinch the skin but it should always be on the body. I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good needling technique. Practitioners are becoming dependent on tubes (and often on expensive needles) and I believe that they don't really know how to use a tube properly either. Tubes were developed in Japan for use by blind acupuncturists who could find the point by palpation but needed the tube to help guide the needle in. Proper use of tubes requires as much practice as proper free hand needling - just hitting the needle on the head and pushing it through the tube is not how they should be used. I can go on about this and will do so privately if you would like me to. Marnae At 02:35 PM 4/7/2005, you wrote: >To all, > >I know this an herb group but most of us also use needles. The recent >mention of needle size brought up a question that many of my students ask. >They have previously been taught to only use 36 gauge needles and I tend >to use 32 gauge. Being the " new teacher on the block " here this brings up >some questions, like what do other practitioners do? I can only answer >that in part based on what I have observed. I would appreciate it if you >could take a few moments to answer the question below. > >What size needles do you use for " regular " everyday needling of body >points (i.e. zu san li (ST36), he gu (LI4), etc) on the average person? >I'm not asking about facial needling or ear needling, per se, although I >would be interested to hear about that as well. > >I am also interested to hear about your style of insertion. Do you use >free-hand, tube, spinning of the needle, etc? Also what do you do with >your non-needling hand while inserting the needle? > >You can email me privately if it would be best for the concerns of the list. > >Thank you for your time, > > > > > > >Professor of Chinese Internal Medicine >World Medicine Institute >Honolulu, HI > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good needling technique. >>>I cant agree more. It is also unfortunately how uncomfortable people are in more invasive needling techniques because they are so important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Dear Alon and Marnae, Whenever I do an ACAOM site visit to a school, I make sure I ask about needling techniques and what is taught. If free-hand needling is not being taught or used in clinic, we always make it a finding. In our school, free-hand needling is required, and tube needling is minimally taught, but once students get into internship, they often resort to tubes because they feel it will be less painful, or " cleaner " . We do make note of this in our accreditation reports. Julie Chambers - " " <alonmarcus Friday, April 08, 2005 1:34 PM Re: Needle size > > > I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good > needling technique. >>>>I cant agree more. It is also unfortunately how uncomfortable people are >>>>in more invasive needling techniques because they are so important > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Alon, I would also add to this the idea that we do not want to take a stance that acupuncture is medicine. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: Needle size >Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:34:32 -0500 > > >I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good >needling technique. > >>>I cant agree more. It is also unfortunately how uncomfortable people >are in more invasive needling techniques because they are so important > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Marnae: I would appreciate your insights as how to use guide tubes properly. You can contact me directly at: doctorbrian00 Thanks Brian Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: Thomas - I use 30 - 32 guage for " regular " needling unless the patient is elderly, young (children) or especially weak I do primarily free hand needling which is also what we teach and emphasize at Touro College. (Unless I am doing a specific technique like ion-pumping cords that requires a very surface insertion of a very thin needle) The non - needling hand is probably more important than the needling hand. It is the root. It is always placed on the body near the site of insertion. If necessary it is used to stretch or pinch the skin but it should always be on the body. I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good needling technique. Practitioners are becoming dependent on tubes (and often on expensive needles) and I believe that they don't really know how to use a tube properly either. Tubes were developed in Japan for use by blind acupuncturists who could find the point by palpation but needed the tube to help guide the needle in. Proper use of tubes requires as much practice as proper free hand needling - just hitting the needle on the head and pushing it through the tube is not how they should be used. I can go on about this and will do so privately if you would like me to. Marnae At 02:35 PM 4/7/2005, you wrote: >To all, > >I know this an herb group but most of us also use needles. The recent >mention of needle size brought up a question that many of my students ask. >They have previously been taught to only use 36 gauge needles and I tend >to use 32 gauge. Being the " new teacher on the block " here this brings up >some questions, like what do other practitioners do? I can only answer >that in part based on what I have observed. I would appreciate it if you >could take a few moments to answer the question below. > >What size needles do you use for " regular " everyday needling of body >points (i.e. zu san li (ST36), he gu (LI4), etc) on the average person? >I'm not asking about facial needling or ear needling, per se, although I >would be interested to hear about that as well. > >I am also interested to hear about your style of insertion. Do you use >free-hand, tube, spinning of the needle, etc? Also what do you do with >your non-needling hand while inserting the needle? > >You can email me privately if it would be best for the concerns of the list. > >Thank you for your time, > > > > > > >Professor of Chinese Internal Medicine >World Medicine Institute >Honolulu, HI > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 I am also interested in this discussion. If you would include me in any off-CHA posts, I'd appreciate it, as well. BTW...do you guys have a good group/board for acu questions? I joined one of the , but it doesn't seem to be for professionals as much as for patients or students. Thanks, Kris Grazzini Sandberg, M.S., L.Ac. , <> wrote: > > Hi Marnae, > > I'd like to hear what you have to say also. If you wish to not clutter the CHA list with needling-related posts, please include me in your private posts. > > Thank you, > > > Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > Thomas - > > I use 30 - 32 guage for " regular " needling unless the patient is elderly, > young (children) or especially weak I do primarily free hand needling > which is also what we teach and emphasize at Touro College. (Unless I am > doing a specific technique like ion-pumping cords that requires a very > surface insertion of a very thin needle) The non - needling hand is > probably more important than the needling hand. It is the root. It is > always placed on the body near the site of insertion. If necessary it is > used to stretch or pinch the skin but it should always be on the body. > > I find it very unfortunate that schools are moving away from teaching good > needling technique. Practitioners are becoming dependent on tubes (and > often on expensive needles) and I believe that they don't really know how > to use a tube properly either. Tubes were developed in Japan for use by > blind acupuncturists who could find the point by palpation but needed the > tube to help guide the needle in. Proper use of tubes requires as much > practice as proper free hand needling - just hitting the needle on the head > and pushing it through the tube is not how they should be used. I can go > on about this and will do so privately if you would like me to. > > Marnae > > At 02:35 PM 4/7/2005, you wrote: > > > >To all, > > > >I know this an herb group but most of us also use needles. The recent > >mention of needle size brought up a question that many of my students ask. > >They have previously been taught to only use 36 gauge needles and I tend > >to use 32 gauge. Being the " new teacher on the block " here this brings up > >some questions, like what do other practitioners do? I can only answer > >that in part based on what I have observed. I would appreciate it if you > >could take a few moments to answer the question below. > > > >What size needles do you use for " regular " everyday needling of body > >points (i.e. zu san li (ST36), he gu (LI4), etc) on the average person? > >I'm not asking about facial needling or ear needling, per se, although I > >would be interested to hear about that as well. > > > >I am also interested to hear about your style of insertion. Do you use > >free-hand, tube, spinning of the needle, etc? Also what do you do with > >your non-needling hand while inserting the needle? > > > >You can email me privately if it would be best for the concerns of the list. > > > >Thank you for your time, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Professor of Chinese Internal Medicine > >World Medicine Institute > >Honolulu, HI > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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