Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 I have an interesting situation and I would like to hear input from those who teach and have been through the education process. I have a very good friend who is a bodybuilder and he had had what looked like to be a very deep pimple. He had had this for months, and wanted to get rid of it because he had a show that week, and he asked me for help, knowing that I was studying Chinese medicine. So, I needled around this very large pimple, which was as hard a rock, and sure enough, two days later, it came to a head and drained and drained, clearly it was more like a cyst...... I then made a big mistake, and that was to speak about this during my clinic meeting at school. I started talking about this experience, because I had many questions about boils, cysts etc, and I wanted to know what herb treatment may have worked better under the circumstances, and then BAMMMMMMM I was informed that as a student of acupuncture I was not allowed to, what so ever, work on any friends or any family members... period end of story. Needless to say it was was a tough dressing down, and a legal lesson to boot. (I missed that section in the student manual) I then sat there for a minute, and I asked, well, what about prescribing herbs, is there was a problem with that.....because in my mind herbs are much more of an issue than acupuncture, and the answer was " no " . I guess my question is......As a student should I keep my learning experiences to the clinic and learn only under school supervision? And do you think that the school environment is the only place that we can learn or should learn? Thanks, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 On Apr 9, 2005, at 4:40 PM, holly mead wrote: > I was informed that as a student of acupuncture I was > not allowed to, what so ever, work on any friends or > any family members... period end of story. Needless to > say it was was a tough dressing down, and a legal > lesson to boot. (I missed that section in the student > manual) I agree with this. You should only treat people under the guidance of the appropriately licensed supervisor. However that is only half the problem, the other half was the question of how to drain a boil which doesn't sound like it was addressed. I think that it would be best to have answered both issues. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 Holly - As an educator, this definitely is a problem. It is absolutely, 100% illegal for an individual who is not licensed to practice acupuncture to insert an acupuncture needle into another human being. In this case, the best thing that you could have done would have been to suggest that the individual come to your student clinic for low cost treatment. You then could have asked your supervisor all the questions you wanted to about cysts, boils, etc., and the patient would have received legal treatment. But, with this restriction, how then do you practice your needling technique sufficiently to become good (or even adequate)? There is simply not enough time in class/clinic to get enough practice. You might wish to suggest to your program that they set up a " needle practice area " where a licensed practitioner is available to oversee students needling each other outside of class time. This helps, but it does not solve the problem. This is an ethical, legal decision that you have to struggle with. As far as the use of herbs goes, it is in fact true that in most states because the use of herbs is not regulated / licensed anyone can practice - with or without education. That does not mean that it is a good idea and I would make the same suggestion to you about having your patients come to your student clinic, and I suspect that with the wrong individual or the wrong results there could definitely be some legal issues. Again, an ethical decision that you have to make. Marnae At 07:40 PM 4/9/2005, you wrote: >I have an interesting situation and I would like to >hear input from those who teach and have been through >the education process. > >I have a very good friend who is a bodybuilder and he >had had what looked like to be a very deep pimple. He >had had this for months, and wanted to get rid of it >because he had a show that week, and he asked me for >help, knowing that I was studying Chinese medicine. > >So, I needled around this very large pimple, which was >as hard a rock, and sure enough, two days later, it >came to a head and drained and drained, clearly it was >more like a cyst...... > >I then made a big mistake, and that was to speak about >this during my clinic meeting at school. I started >talking about this experience, because I had many >questions about boils, cysts etc, and I wanted to know >what herb treatment may have worked better under the >circumstances, and then BAMMMMMMM > >I was informed that as a student of acupuncture I was >not allowed to, what so ever, work on any friends or >any family members... period end of story. Needless to >say it was was a tough dressing down, and a legal >lesson to boot. (I missed that section in the student >manual) > >I then sat there for a minute, and I asked, well, what >about prescribing herbs, is there was a problem with >that.....because in my mind herbs are much more of an >issue than acupuncture, and the answer was " no " . > > >I guess my question is......As a student should I keep >my learning experiences to the clinic and learn only >under school supervision? And do you think that the >school environment is the only place that we can learn >or should learn? > >Thanks, >Holly > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 > >I have a very good friend who is a bodybuilder and he > >had had what looked like to be a very deep pimple. He > >had had this for months, and wanted to get rid of it > >because he had a show that week, and he asked me for > >help, knowing that I was studying Chinese medicine. > > > >So, I needled around this very large pimple, which was > >as hard a rock, and sure enough, two days later, it > >came to a head and drained and drained, clearly it was > >more like a cyst...... ******* , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > Holly - > As an educator, this definitely is a problem. It is absolutely, 100% > illegal for an individual who is not licensed to practice acupuncture to > insert an acupuncture needle into another human being. In this case, the ******* Wow. Since when is needling in OR around an unidentified tumor acceptable by anyone, licensed or not? Can you spot melanoma? If it's malignant you could promote metastasis. How about dermatofibroma? (hard and benign but incurable) Or a mutant Staph Aureus boil? (serious and highly contagious stuff at epidemic rates in jails and hospitals) It's not too hard to create infection needling thru dirty skin or reinserting the same needle. The best thing to try would have been hot compresses (hot washcloth repeated every couple of minutes). A pimple can have a dab of wet Ivory soap (no moisturizer) to pull dampness out as it dries. Also related, I stopped treating burn blisters by lancing the side when I figured out they heal much quicker when you leave the blister intact. As far as being illegal, I don't know about NY, but in California the criteria would definately be 1) _holding oneself out as an acupuncturist_, or 2) _ doing it for the purpose of treatment. If you and a consensual partner want to stick needles in each other all night long, you're fine until somebody gets hurt or decides to claim they are. Joe Reid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Holly, Marnae makes some excellent points. The law in many states does not allow for unlicensed practice except for supervision by a licensed practitioner. It is hard to find enough people to practice on and as a result schools do not address this aspect well enough. I have found that practitioner development is lacking especially in acupuncture and also in practice management. As such we are in a legal kind of bind as any layperson can lance a boil/furuncle/zit with a needle yet there is a double standard here. Are we practicing acupuncture or minor surgery? Marnae is right in that you do not want to have an legal or licensing issue that could hinder or prevent you from getting your acupuncture license. Leave the scandals with the Republicans in office. Keep your needling at school with instructor supervision. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Marnae Ergil <marnae > > >Re: and Education >Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:48:39 -0400 > >Holly - > >As an educator, this definitely is a problem. It is absolutely, 100% >illegal for an individual who is not licensed to practice acupuncture to >insert an acupuncture needle into another human being. In this case, the >best thing that you could have done would have been to suggest that the >individual come to your student clinic for low cost treatment. You then >could have asked your supervisor all the questions you wanted to about >cysts, boils, etc., and the patient would have received legal treatment. > >But, with this restriction, how then do you practice your needling >technique sufficiently to become good (or even adequate)? There is simply >not enough time in class/clinic to get enough practice. You might wish to >suggest to your program that they set up a " needle practice area " where a >licensed practitioner is available to oversee students needling each other >outside of class time. This helps, but it does not solve the >problem. This is an ethical, legal decision that you have to struggle >with. > >As far as the use of herbs goes, it is in fact true that in most states >because the use of herbs is not regulated / licensed anyone can practice - >with or without education. That does not mean that it is a good idea and I >would make the same suggestion to you about having your patients come to >your student clinic, and I suspect that with the wrong individual or the >wrong results there could definitely be some legal issues. Again, an >ethical decision that you have to make. > >Marnae > >At 07:40 PM 4/9/2005, you wrote: > > > >I have an interesting situation and I would like to > >hear input from those who teach and have been through > >the education process. > > > >I have a very good friend who is a bodybuilder and he > >had had what looked like to be a very deep pimple. He > >had had this for months, and wanted to get rid of it > >because he had a show that week, and he asked me for > >help, knowing that I was studying Chinese medicine. > > > >So, I needled around this very large pimple, which was > >as hard a rock, and sure enough, two days later, it > >came to a head and drained and drained, clearly it was > >more like a cyst...... > > > >I then made a big mistake, and that was to speak about > >this during my clinic meeting at school. I started > >talking about this experience, because I had many > >questions about boils, cysts etc, and I wanted to know > >what herb treatment may have worked better under the > >circumstances, and then BAMMMMMMM > > > >I was informed that as a student of acupuncture I was > >not allowed to, what so ever, work on any friends or > >any family members... period end of story. Needless to > >say it was was a tough dressing down, and a legal > >lesson to boot. (I missed that section in the student > >manual) > > > >I then sat there for a minute, and I asked, well, what > >about prescribing herbs, is there was a problem with > >that.....because in my mind herbs are much more of an > >issue than acupuncture, and the answer was " no " . > > > > > >I guess my question is......As a student should I keep > >my learning experiences to the clinic and learn only > >under school supervision? And do you think that the > >school environment is the only place that we can learn > >or should learn? > > > >Thanks, > >Holly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Thanks to everyone who gave me their opinion. I will follow the advise, I appreciate the time and energy. I will stow away my needles and only work in school....I had not understood what a fine line it was. As a follow on note, my friends " mass " is now history. I followed up by using Epsum Salts per the advise of an instructor and it cleared up the rest of the infection. Again, thanks to all who gave me the input. Holly --- jreidomd <jreidomd wrote: > > > > >I have a very good friend who is a bodybuilder > and he > > >had had what looked like to be a very deep > pimple. He > > >had had this for months, and wanted to get rid of > it > > >because he had a show that week, and he asked me > for > > >help, knowing that I was studying Chinese > medicine. > > > > > >So, I needled around this very large pimple, > which was > > >as hard a rock, and sure enough, two days later, > it > > >came to a head and drained and drained, clearly > it was > > >more like a cyst...... > ******* > , Marnae > Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > > Holly - > > As an educator, this definitely is a problem. It > is absolutely, 100% > > illegal for an individual who is not licensed to > practice acupuncture to > > insert an acupuncture needle into another human > being. In this case, the > ******* > > Wow. Since when is needling in OR around an > unidentified tumor acceptable by > anyone, licensed or not? > Can you spot melanoma? If it's malignant you could > promote metastasis. > How about dermatofibroma? (hard and benign but > incurable) > Or a mutant Staph Aureus boil? (serious and highly > contagious stuff at epidemic > rates in jails and hospitals) > It's not too hard to create infection needling thru > dirty skin or reinserting the same > needle. The best thing to try would have been hot > compresses (hot washcloth > repeated every couple of minutes). A pimple can > have a dab of wet Ivory soap (no > moisturizer) to pull dampness out as it dries. Also > related, I stopped treating burn > blisters by lancing the side when I figured out they > heal much quicker when you > leave the blister intact. > As far as being illegal, I don't know about NY, but > in California the criteria would > definately be 1) _holding oneself out as an > acupuncturist_, or 2) _ doing it for the > purpose of treatment. If you and a consensual > partner want to stick needles in each > other all night long, you're fine until somebody > gets hurt or decides to claim they are. > > Joe Reid > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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