Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Hi all, I have a question regarding the pathomechanisms of internal wind due to blood vacuity. Maciocia states, " This pattern [deficient liver-blood causing wind] is caused by deficiency of Liver-Blood creating an emptiness in the blood vessels which is " filled " by internal Wind. " Yet I can not find any other reference to this particular pathomechanism to back this up. In fact, there is nothing else I can find that sounds anything like this. So......anybody who has an opinion, let's hear it. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Hi Thomas, pg. 193 Fundamentals of - Wiseman and Ellis states.. Some differences of symptoms are associated with the two forms of wind. (External vs. Internal) Transformation of liver yang into wind, which is a classical example of internal wind, is associated with dizziness, shaking of the head, and tremor. It is generally attributed to yin humor depletion leaving the upbearing of yang unchecked. Extreme heat engendering wind is associated with extreme heat signs. Blood vacuity or dry blood engendering wind is associated with a general desiccation of blood and liquid. ... Internal wind is " extinguished " by calming the liver, clearing fire, nourishing blood, and enriching yin. Thomas, just curious why you bring this up? Is this in reference to a current patient? Would be interested to know. I have a tremor patient that original presented with more phlegm heat than blood def, he has responded very well to herbal treatment. However, it has been over a year and his tongue and pulse are now showing that the phlegm heat has cleared and he has more of a blood/qi def, yet the tremors are still best kept controlled by focusing on clearing the phlegm heat. Cheers, Michael O'Brien - Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:30 AM Internal Wind Hi all, I have a question regarding the pathomechanisms of internal wind due to blood vacuity. Maciocia states, " This pattern [deficient liver-blood causing wind] is caused by deficiency of Liver-Blood creating an emptiness in the blood vessels which is " filled " by internal Wind. " Yet I can not find any other reference to this particular pathomechanism to back this up. In fact, there is nothing else I can find that sounds anything like this. So......anybody who has an opinion, let's hear it. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 A Guide-Book to the Proficiency Examination... China Medico Pharmaceutical Publishing House April 1994 says on page 84, " Deficiency of the liver blood deprives the tendons of nourishment and thus stirs up deficiency type wind in the interior. " Maciocia's " filling by internal wind " may just be a poetic way to express how and what is being " stirred " . The most common explanation I have heard is that wind can only penetrate where there is a deficiency and given the image of a solid wall and then a wall with holes in it. doug , > wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a question regarding the pathomechanisms of internal wind due to blood vacuity. Maciocia states, " This pattern [deficient liver-blood causing wind] is caused by deficiency of Liver-Blood creating an emptiness in the blood vessels which is " filled " by internal Wind. " Yet I can not find any other reference to this particular pathomechanism to back this up. In fact, there is nothing else I can find that sounds anything like this. > > So......anybody who has an opinion, let's hear it. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 In Practical Diagnosis, Deng Tie Tao says: " When the true yin is depleted and consumed, then the liver loses its nourishment, causing the stirring of vacuity wind, which results in wriggling and stirring of the hands and feet and stirring of the heart. If the yin essence is depleted and consumed or exhausted, then the vacuity wind is more fierce, which results in spirit fatigue, clonic convulsions and tetanic reversal " (pg. 247) Also, when discussing a liver blood vacuity pattern he says: " Besides the above signs [of liver blood vacuity], there may be numbness of thelimbs, contracture of the sinew vessels and inhibited stretching. This is liver blood vacuity causing the stirring of liver wind. " (pg 277) So, basically, it comes down to how you understand CM. Deng is described the signs of liver yin/liver blood vacuity that, when the manifest, indicate the presence of liver wind stirring internally. Because this liver wind is a result of a vacuity, and not a repletion, the signs are more subtle, and sometimes more difficult to see, but important signs to examine. Maciocia is trying to explain the mechanism, with, what I would agree may be a " poetic " image. The important things are to 1) see the presence of the signs & 2) differentiate the wind signs as being either repletion (liver fire stirring internal wind) or vacuity (liver yin/blood vacuity stirring wind). So rather than thinking about the wind " filling " the emptiness, you can think about the blood dryness not nourishing the liver and so resulting in less intense wind signs or liver yin vacuity heat stirring wind (as internal repletion heat will do) and creating somewhat more severe wind signs, but not as obvious signs as liver fire stirring wind would create. Marnae At 07:29 PM 5/3/2005, wrote: >A Guide-Book to the Proficiency Examination... China Medico Pharmaceutical >Publishing >House April 1994 says on page 84, " Deficiency of the liver blood deprives >the tendons of >nourishment and thus stirs up deficiency type wind in the interior. " >Maciocia's " filling by internal wind " may just be a poetic way to express >how and what is >being " stirred " . The most common explanation I have heard is that wind can >only penetrate >where there is a deficiency and given the image of a solid wall and then a >wall with holes >in it. >doug > > > , >> >wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question regarding the pathomechanisms of internal wind due to > blood vacuity. >Maciocia states, " This pattern [deficient liver-blood causing wind] is >caused by deficiency >of Liver-Blood creating an emptiness in the blood vessels which is > " filled " by internal >Wind. " Yet I can not find any other reference to this particular >pathomechanism to back >this up. In fact, there is nothing else I can find that sounds anything >like this. > > > > So......anybody who has an opinion, let's hear it. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 So rather than thinking about the wind " filling " the emptiness, >>>>>>There have been others (Chinese articles) that have used the image of evils " filling " so-called empty spaces caused by deficiency in general. I have seen this regarding phlegm and blood stasis. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 " There have been others (Chinese articles) that have used the image of evils " filling " so-called empty spaces caused by deficiency in general. I have seen this regarding phlegm and blood stasis. " Doesn't mean it's correct. Just like people in North America, Chinese can be smart or dumb, right or wrong, informed or uninformed. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Doesn't mean it's correct. Just like people in North America, Chinese can be smart or dumb, right or wrong, informed or uninformed. Bob >>>>>>>Are you saying it is a wrong image? what makes it so? what constitute informed and uninformed? I believe Zhu Liang-chun used this image, also to include the mixing of righteous and evil. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Bob - Thanks for the laugh! I needed it. Marnae At 02:40 PM 5/4/2005, you wrote: > " There have been others (Chinese articles) that have used the image of >evils " filling " so-called empty spaces caused by deficiency in >general. I have seen this regarding phlegm and blood stasis. " > >Doesn't mean it's correct. Just like people in North America, Chinese >can be smart or dumb, right or wrong, informed or uninformed. > >Bob > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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