Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Daniel, I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 hong hua 30 san leng 15 tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 e zhu 10 mo yao 12 xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 mu dan pi 12 I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal formulas. Thank you. Frances Gander, R.Ac. 11315 Jackson Dr. The Plains, OH 45780 740-797-9297 >shao lin die da > >I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and >demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern >differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many >liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text >books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for >pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. > >Tian- Qi- >Dang- Gui- >Hong/ Hua- >Jiang- Huang/ >Xue\ Jie/ >Ru~ Xiang- > >My prep method: > >Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - >after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without >bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at >repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for stability. > >La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, >cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 There was recently published " A Tooth from the Tiger's Mouth " written by Tom Bisio, a well respected martial artist, that has many recipes for external treatment of injury. I highly recommend it. It gives a good outline of the stages of trauma and how one should go about treating differently in each stage. -Steve >Daniel, > >I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what >else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern >differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper >bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my >herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, >uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this >is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): > >dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 >hong hua 30 san leng 15 >tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 >e zhu 10 mo yao 12 >xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 >bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 > mu dan pi > 12 > >I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely >there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to >the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal >formulas. Thank you. > >Frances Gander, R.Ac. >11315 Jackson Dr. >The Plains, OH 45780 >740-797-9297 > >>shao lin die da >> >>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and >>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern >>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many >>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text >>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for >>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. >> >>Tian- Qi- >>Dang- Gui- >>Hong/ Hua- >>Jiang- Huang/ >>Xue\ Jie/ >>Ru~ Xiang- >> >>My prep method: >> >>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - >>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without >>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at >>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for stability. >> >>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, >>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. >> >> >> > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >including board approved continuing education classes, an annual >conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have worked with break it down into: New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal formulas that address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is constipation as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi mechanism, moving the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve issues... Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation (typically with what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing medicinals) with invigorating blood and moving qi. Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating wind damp and cold and sometimes supplementation. These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very different effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao wu on the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in topical die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and gou teng, some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she xiang's use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in internal rx for blood moving). In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical purposes 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of cheap vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a pain to do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase surface area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming and drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking but I think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. Firmly cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess pressure (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a incandescent light bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such a way as to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature roughly doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and keeps your alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving blood. This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a soxhlet extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks like a couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of powdering medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet online, mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of about one quart that is very '70's looking. I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run across, it would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. Par Scott - " frances gander " <threetreasures Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM shaolin die da > Daniel, > > I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what > else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern > differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper > bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my > herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, > uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this > is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): > > dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 > hong hua 30 san leng 15 > tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 > e zhu 10 mo yao 12 > xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 > bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 > mu dan pi > 12 > > I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely > there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to > the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal > formulas. Thank you. > > Frances Gander, R.Ac. > 11315 Jackson Dr. > The Plains, OH 45780 > 740-797-9297 > >>shao lin die da >> >>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and >>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern >>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many >>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text >>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for >>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. >> >>Tian- Qi- >>Dang- Gui- >>Hong/ Hua- >>Jiang- Huang/ >>Xue\ Jie/ >>Ru~ Xiang- >> >>My prep method: >> >>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - >>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without >>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at >>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for stability. >> >>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, >>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. >> >> >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I'm note sure what you mean, are you saying that you've absorbed a topical and ended up tasting it? I have heard of it happening with topical garlic, and I assume that it can happen with other things. I assume it would mean you're getting good absorption, but it does give pause around toxics and their use in externals. Some of the advantages of topical drug absorption is there is less interaction with the liver, and, obviously, no interaction with the GI tract, allowing otherwise harsh materials to reach the blood. I have never noticed this with any of the die da formulas I've used, they are pungent, but not tasty. Perhaps a " I won't slather myself in anything I wouldn't put in my mouth " policy would be appropriate until somebody with a bio-chemistry background chimes in. What is in the formula you are using? Could you be interpreting inhaled volatiles as a taste? Par Scott - " jreidomd " <jreidomd Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:33 AM Re: shaolin die da > Is there any significance (good or bad) in strongly tasting it (after > external use) > ? > Thanks,Joe > > , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> > wrote: >> In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have worked with >> break it down into: >> >> New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal formulas that >> address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is > constipation >> as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi mechanism, >> moving >> the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and >> supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve >> issues... >> >> Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation (typically > with >> what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing medicinals) >> with invigorating blood and moving qi. >> >> Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating wind damp >> and cold and sometimes supplementation. >> >> These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. >> >> Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good >> constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though >> external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very different >> effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao wu >> on >> the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). >> >> Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in >> topical >> die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and gou >> teng, >> some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she > xiang's >> use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in >> internal >> rx for blood moving). >> >> In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical purposes >> 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of > cheap >> vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a pain >> to >> do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese >> cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase >> surface >> area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming > and >> drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking but I >> think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of >> things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. Firmly >> cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess pressure >> (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a incandescent >> light >> bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such a way >> as >> to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature roughly >> doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and keeps >> your >> alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving blood. >> This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a soxhlet >> extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your >> medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks like >> a >> couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of powdering >> medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet >> online, >> mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of > about >> one quart that is very '70's looking. >> >> I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run across, >> it >> would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. >> >> Par Scott >> >> - >> " frances gander " <threetreasures@f...> >> >> Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM >> shaolin die da >> >> >> > Daniel, >> > >> > I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what >> > else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any >> > pattern >> > differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper >> > bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my >> > herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, >> > uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this >> > is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): >> > >> > dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 >> > hong hua 30 san leng 15 >> > tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 >> > e zhu 10 mo yao 12 >> > xue jie 10 qian nian jian >> > 15 >> > bing pian 12 gu sui bu >> > 15 >> > mu dan pi >> > 12 >> > >> > I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. >> > Surely >> > there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to >> > the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal >> > formulas. Thank you. >> > >> > Frances Gander, R.Ac. >> > 11315 Jackson Dr. >> > The Plains, OH 45780 >> > 740-797-9297 >> > >> >>shao lin die da >> >> >> >>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and >> >>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern >> >>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many >> >>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text >> >>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for >> >>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. >> >> >> >>Tian- Qi- >> >>Dang- Gui- >> >>Hong/ Hua- >> >>Jiang- Huang/ >> >>Xue\ Jie/ >> >>Ru~ Xiang- >> >> >> >>My prep method: >> >> >> >>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - >> >>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without >> >>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at >> >>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for >> >>stability. >> >> >> >>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, >> >>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including >> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and > a >> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Frances, Par, Stephen, Thanks for your invaluable feedback! Since there often is internal cold around the injury, as a result of the Qi and Blood stagnation, Qi Xue Bu Tong, would you not rather use an oil-based, warming ointment/paste/salve instead of an alcohol-based, cooling liniment? (Frances, I noticed the TDP lamp which would solve this problem, at the clinic.) What about for home use? Again, thanks to all, regards, Daniel C. Luthi In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have worked with break it down into: New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal formulas that address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is constipation as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi mechanism, moving the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve issues... Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation (typically with what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing medicinals) with invigorating blood and moving qi. Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating wind damp and cold and sometimes supplementation. These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very different effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao wu on the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in topical die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and gou teng, some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she xiang's use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in internal rx for blood moving). In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical purposes 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of cheap vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a pain to do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase surface area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming and drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking but I think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. Firmly cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess pressure (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a incandescent light bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such a way as to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature roughly doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and keeps your alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving blood. This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a soxhlet extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks like a couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of powdering medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet online, mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of about one quart that is very '70's looking. I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run across, it would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. Par Scott - " frances gander " <threetreasures Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM shaolin die da > Daniel, > > I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what > else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern > differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper > bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my > herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, > uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this > is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): > > dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 > hong hua 30 san leng 15 > tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 > e zhu 10 mo yao 12 > xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 > bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 > mu dan pi > 12 > > I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely > there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to > the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal > formulas. Thank you. > > Frances Gander, R.Ac. > 11315 Jackson Dr. > The Plains, OH 45780 > 740-797-9297 > >>shao lin die da >> >>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and >>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern >>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many >>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text >>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for >>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. >> >>Tian- Qi- >>Dang- Gui- >>Hong/ Hua- >>Jiang- Huang/ >>Xue\ Jie/ >>Ru~ Xiang- >> >>My prep method: >> >>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - >>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without >>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at >>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for stability. >> >>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, >>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is definitely warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more problematic, and while I do make salves they are for skin problems where nourishing is more of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp heat itching recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, go figure. I think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what you want from the medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing agent (like bing pian, et al) your probably fine. Par - " Daniel " <solothurner Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:51 PM Re: shaolin die da > Frances, Par, Stephen, > > Thanks for your invaluable feedback! Since there often is internal > cold around the injury, as a result of the Qi and Blood stagnation, Qi > Xue Bu Tong, would you not rather use an oil-based, warming > ointment/paste/salve instead of an alcohol-based, cooling liniment? > (Frances, I noticed the TDP lamp which would solve this problem, at > the clinic.) What about for home use? > > Again, thanks to all, regards, > > Daniel C. Luthi > > > > In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have worked with > break it down into: > > New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal formulas that > address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is > constipation > as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi mechanism, moving > the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and > supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve > issues... > > Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation > (typically with > what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing medicinals) > with invigorating blood and moving qi. > > Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating wind damp > and cold and sometimes supplementation. > > These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. > > Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good > constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though > external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very different > effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao > wu on > the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). > > Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in > topical > die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and gou teng, > some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she > xiang's > use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in > internal > rx for blood moving). > > In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical purposes > 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of > cheap > vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a pain to > do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese > cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase surface > area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming and > drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking but I > think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of > things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. Firmly > cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess pressure > (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a incandescent light > bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such a way as > to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature roughly > doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and keeps your > alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving blood. > This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a soxhlet > extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your > medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks like a > couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of powdering > medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet online, > mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of > about > one quart that is very '70's looking. > > I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run > across, it > would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. > > Par Scott > > - > " frances gander " <threetreasures > > Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM > shaolin die da > > >> Daniel, >> >> I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what >> else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern >> differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper >> bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my >> herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, >> uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this >> is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): >> >> dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 >> hong hua 30 san leng 15 >> tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 >> e zhu 10 mo yao 12 >> xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 >> bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 >> mu dan pi >> 12 >> >> I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely >> there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to >> the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal >> formulas. Thank you. >> >> Frances Gander, R.Ac. >> 11315 Jackson Dr. >> The Plains, OH 45780 >> 740-797-9297 >> >>>shao lin die da >>> >>>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and >>>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern >>>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many >>>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text >>>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for >>>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. >>> >>>Tian- Qi- >>>Dang- Gui- >>>Hong/ Hua- >>>Jiang- Huang/ >>>Xue\ Jie/ >>>Ru~ Xiang- >>> >>>My prep method: >>> >>>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - >>>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without >>>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at >>>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for > stability. >>> >>>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, >>>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 I agree with Par: alcohol is warm/hot in nature. No Chinese source of which I'm aware suggests anything different. BTW, back from Mexico where we had our best Blue Poppy " Retreat " ever. You should'a been there. Bob , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote: > I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is definitely > warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more problematic, and > while I do make salves they are for skin problems where nourishing is more > of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp heat itching > recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, go figure. I > think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what you want from the > medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing agent (like bing > pian, et al) your probably fine. > > Par > - > " Daniel " <solothurner> > > Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:51 PM > Re: shaolin die da > > > > Frances, Par, Stephen, > > > > Thanks for your invaluable feedback! Since there often is internal > > cold around the injury, as a result of the Qi and Blood stagnation, Qi > > Xue Bu Tong, would you not rather use an oil-based, warming > > ointment/paste/salve instead of an alcohol-based, cooling liniment? > > (Frances, I noticed the TDP lamp which would solve this problem, at > > the clinic.) What about for home use? > > > > Again, thanks to all, regards, > > > > Daniel C. Luthi > > > > > > > > In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have worked with > > break it down into: > > > > New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal formulas that > > address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is > > constipation > > as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi mechanism, moving > > the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and > > supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve > > issues... > > > > Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation > > (typically with > > what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing medicinals) > > with invigorating blood and moving qi. > > > > Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating wind damp > > and cold and sometimes supplementation. > > > > These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. > > > > Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good > > constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though > > external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very different > > effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao > > wu on > > the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). > > > > Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in > > topical > > die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and gou teng, > > some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she > > xiang's > > use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in > > internal > > rx for blood moving). > > > > In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical purposes > > 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of > > cheap > > vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a pain to > > do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese > > cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase surface > > area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming and > > drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking but I > > think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of > > things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. Firmly > > cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess pressure > > (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a incandescent light > > bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such a way as > > to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature roughly > > doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and keeps your > > alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving blood. > > This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a soxhlet > > extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your > > medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks like a > > couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of powdering > > medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet online, > > mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of > > about > > one quart that is very '70's looking. > > > > I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run > > across, it > > would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. > > > > Par Scott > > > > - > > " frances gander " <threetreasures@> > > > > Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM > > shaolin die da > > > > > >> Daniel, > >> > >> I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what > >> else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern > >> differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper > >> bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my > >> herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, > >> uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this > >> is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): > >> > >> dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 > >> hong hua 30 san leng 15 > >> tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 > >> e zhu 10 mo yao 12 > >> xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 > >> bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 > >> mu dan pi > >> 12 > >> > >> I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely > >> there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to > >> the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal > >> formulas. Thank you. > >> > >> Frances Gander, R.Ac. > >> 11315 Jackson Dr. > >> The Plains, OH 45780 > >> 740-797-9297 > >> > >>>shao lin die da > >>> > >>>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and > >>>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern > >>>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many > >>>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text > >>>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for > >>>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. > >>> > >>>Tian- Qi- > >>>Dang- Gui- > >>>Hong/ Hua- > >>>Jiang- Huang/ > >>>Xue\ Jie/ > >>>Ru~ Xiang- > >>> > >>>My prep method: > >>> > >>>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - > >>>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without > >>>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at > >>>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for > > stability. > >>> > >>>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, > >>>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Externally, alcohol cools by evaporation; internally it leads to heat by dehydration, but that's just my imagination, I don't actually read books. Joe Reid : frequently revised and updated Timely information at: http://www.jreidomd.blogspot.com , " Bob Flaws " < pemachophel2001> wrote: > I agree with Par: alcohol is warm/hot in nature. No Chinese source of > which I'm aware suggests anything different. > > BTW, back from Mexico where we had our best Blue Poppy " Retreat " ever. > You should'a been there. > > Bob > > , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> > wrote: > > I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is definitely > > warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more > problematic, and > > while I do make salves they are for skin problems where nourishing > is more > > of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp heat itching > > recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, go > figure. I > > think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what you want > from the > > medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing agent > (like bing > > pian, et al) your probably fine. > > > > Par > > - > > " Daniel " <solothurner> > > > > Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:51 PM > > Re: shaolin die da > > > > > > > Frances, Par, Stephen, > > > > > > Thanks for your invaluable feedback! Since there often is internal > > > cold around the injury, as a result of the Qi and Blood stagnation, Qi > > > Xue Bu Tong, would you not rather use an oil-based, warming > > > ointment/paste/salve instead of an alcohol-based, cooling liniment? > > > (Frances, I noticed the TDP lamp which would solve this problem, at > > > the clinic.) What about for home use? > > > > > > Again, thanks to all, regards, > > > > > > Daniel C. Luthi > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have > worked with > > > break it down into: > > > > > > New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal > formulas that > > > address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is > > > constipation > > > as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi > mechanism, moving > > > the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and > > > supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve > > > issues... > > > > > > Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation > > > (typically with > > > what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing > medicinals) > > > with invigorating blood and moving qi. > > > > > > Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating > wind damp > > > and cold and sometimes supplementation. > > > > > > These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. > > > > > > Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good > > > constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though > > > external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very > different > > > effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao > > > wu on > > > the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). > > > > > > Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in > > > topical > > > die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and > gou teng, > > > some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she > > > xiang's > > > use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in > > > internal > > > rx for blood moving). > > > > > > In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical > purposes > > > 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of > > > cheap > > > vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a > pain to > > > do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese > > > cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase > surface > > > area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming and > > > drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking > but I > > > think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of > > > things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. > Firmly > > > cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess > pressure > > > (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a > incandescent light > > > bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such > a way as > > > to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature > roughly > > > doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and > keeps your > > > alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving > blood. > > > This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a > soxhlet > > > extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your > > > medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks > like a > > > couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of > powdering > > > medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet > online, > > > mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of > > > about > > > one quart that is very '70's looking. > > > > > > I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run > > > across, it > > > would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. > > > > > > Par Scott > > > > > > - > > > " frances gander " <threetreasures@> > > > > > > Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM > > > shaolin die da > > > > > > > > >> Daniel, > > >> > > >> I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what > > >> else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any > pattern > > >> differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper > > >> bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my > > >> herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, > > >> uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, > but this > > >> is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): > > >> > > >> dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 > > >> hong hua 30 san leng 15 > > >> tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 > > >> e zhu 10 mo yao 12 > > >> xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 > > >> bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 > > >> mu dan pi > > >> 12 > > >> > > >> I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. > Surely > > >> there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to > > >> the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal > > >> formulas. Thank you. > > >> > > >> Frances Gander, R.Ac. > > >> 11315 Jackson Dr. > > >> The Plains, OH 45780 > > >> 740-797-9297 > > >> > > >>>shao lin die da > > >>> > > >>>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and > > >>>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern > > >>>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many > > >>>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text > > >>>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for > > >>>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. > > >>> > > >>>Tian- Qi- > > >>>Dang- Gui- > > >>>Hong/ Hua- > > >>>Jiang- Huang/ > > >>>Xue\ Jie/ > > >>>Ru~ Xiang- > > >>> > > >>>My prep method: > > >>> > > >>>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - > > >>>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without > > >>>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at > > >>>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for > > > stability. > > >>> > > >>>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, > > >>>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including > > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference > and a > > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 I use vinegar as a solvent which is cooler than alcohol, and has health benefits as well. Problems are short shelf life and not industry standards for liability issues therefore not recommended for large scale commercial use but superior for in house clinical use. I make my own distilled vinegar from kombucha mushroom tea with a lower acetic acid and higher gluconic and other beneficial acids. The kombucha vinegar itself works well for topical application. For instance I've used it regularly on my dogs Hot Spots he used to get every summer (from fleas and allergies). There would be a slight initial sting and settle in and freely allow more to be applied. Try that with alcohol and they're gone. Plus the intense itching would be immediately gone and the skin would begin to heal right away. Vinegar has respectable references as a herbal solvent in TCM as well as American and European herbalism and noted applicable medicinal qualities. Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist Acupuncture is a jab well done www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. Sun, 15 May 2005 08:49:35 -0400 " Par Scott " <parufus Re: shaolin die da I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is definitely warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more problematic, and while I do make salves they are for skin problems where nourishing is more of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp heat itching recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, go figure. I think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what you want from the medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing agent (like bing pian, et al) your probably fine. Par Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Hi Ed, I think it would be an interesting substitution. I was thumbing through the new Jiao Shu De formulas book and he was talking about vinegar as a substitute for bai jiu (rice wine) in various internal formulas, which I had never thought about before. Does anybody on the list do this? Some of the die da formulas recommend taking with a dose of alcohol, would this work as a substitution generally? Par - " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy Monday, May 16, 2005 2:12 PM RE: shaolin die da >I use vinegar as a solvent which is cooler than alcohol, and > has health benefits as well. Problems are short shelf life > and not industry standards for liability issues therefore > not recommended for large scale commercial use but superior > for in house clinical use. I make my own distilled vinegar > from kombucha mushroom tea with a lower acetic acid and > higher gluconic and other beneficial acids. The kombucha > vinegar itself works well for topical application. For > instance I've used it regularly on my dogs Hot Spots he used > to get every summer (from fleas and allergies). There would > be a slight initial sting and settle in and freely allow > more to be applied. Try that with alcohol and they're gone. > Plus the intense itching would be immediately gone and the > skin would begin to heal right away. Vinegar has > respectable references as a herbal solvent in TCM as well as > American and European herbalism and noted applicable > medicinal qualities. > > Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist > Acupuncture is a jab well done > www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. > > > > > > Sun, 15 May 2005 08:49:35 -0400 > " Par Scott " <parufus > Re: shaolin die da > > I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is > definitely > warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more > problematic, and > while I do make salves they are for skin problems where > nourishing is more > of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp > heat itching > recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, > go figure. I > think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what > you want from the > medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing > agent (like bing > pian, et al) your probably fine. > > Par Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 The problem is that vinegar is sour: it has a totally different action than alcohol, which is acrid and moving. this is just an idea, but if you couldn¹t use alcohol, then maybe focus on acrid warm herbs: gui zhi, xi xin Cara > Hi Ed, > I think it would be an interesting substitution. I was thumbing through the > new Jiao Shu De formulas book and he was talking about vinegar as a > substitute for bai jiu (rice wine) in various internal formulas, which I had > never thought about before. Does anybody on the list do this? Some of the > die da formulas recommend taking with a dose of alcohol, would this work as > a substitution generally? > > Par > - > " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy > > Monday, May 16, 2005 2:12 PM > RE: shaolin die da > > >> >I use vinegar as a solvent which is cooler than alcohol, and >> > has health benefits as well. Problems are short shelf life >> > and not industry standards for liability issues therefore >> > not recommended for large scale commercial use but superior >> > for in house clinical use. I make my own distilled vinegar >> > from kombucha mushroom tea with a lower acetic acid and >> > higher gluconic and other beneficial acids. The kombucha >> > vinegar itself works well for topical application. For >> > instance I've used it regularly on my dogs Hot Spots he used >> > to get every summer (from fleas and allergies). There would >> > be a slight initial sting and settle in and freely allow >> > more to be applied. Try that with alcohol and they're gone. >> > Plus the intense itching would be immediately gone and the >> > skin would begin to heal right away. Vinegar has >> > respectable references as a herbal solvent in TCM as well as >> > American and European herbalism and noted applicable >> > medicinal qualities. >> > >> > Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist >> > Acupuncture is a jab well done >> > www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sun, 15 May 2005 08:49:35 -0400 >> > " Par Scott " <parufus >> > Re: shaolin die da >> > >> > I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is >> > definitely >> > warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more >> > problematic, and >> > while I do make salves they are for skin problems where >> > nourishing is more >> > of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp >> > heat itching >> > recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, >> > go figure. I >> > think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what >> > you want from the >> > medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing >> > agent (like bing >> > pian, et al) your probably fine. >> > >> > Par >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 For die da jiu, some practitioners mix vinegar with alcohol 50:50. Since they have different advantages, it is worth considering; it is really cheap as well. If you grind the meds before soaking them, you can use the " mud " (the ground herbs at the bottom of the jar) as a poultice as well. Eric , Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...> wrote: > The problem is that vinegar is sour: it has a totally different action than > alcohol, which is acrid and moving. > this is just an idea, but if you couldn¹t use alcohol, then maybe focus on > acrid warm herbs: gui zhi, xi xin > > Cara > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > I think it would be an interesting substitution. I was thumbing through the > > new Jiao Shu De formulas book and he was talking about vinegar as a > > substitute for bai jiu (rice wine) in various internal formulas, which I had > > never thought about before. Does anybody on the list do this? Some of the > > die da formulas recommend taking with a dose of alcohol, would this work as > > a substitution generally? > > > > Par > > - > > " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy@h...> > > > > Monday, May 16, 2005 2:12 PM > > RE: shaolin die da > > > > > >> >I use vinegar as a solvent which is cooler than alcohol, and > >> > has health benefits as well. Problems are short shelf life > >> > and not industry standards for liability issues therefore > >> > not recommended for large scale commercial use but superior > >> > for in house clinical use. I make my own distilled vinegar > >> > from kombucha mushroom tea with a lower acetic acid and > >> > higher gluconic and other beneficial acids. The kombucha > >> > vinegar itself works well for topical application. For > >> > instance I've used it regularly on my dogs Hot Spots he used > >> > to get every summer (from fleas and allergies). There would > >> > be a slight initial sting and settle in and freely allow > >> > more to be applied. Try that with alcohol and they're gone. > >> > Plus the intense itching would be immediately gone and the > >> > skin would begin to heal right away. Vinegar has > >> > respectable references as a herbal solvent in TCM as well as > >> > American and European herbalism and noted applicable > >> > medicinal qualities. > >> > > >> > Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist > >> > Acupuncture is a jab well done > >> > www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sun, 15 May 2005 08:49:35 -0400 > >> > " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> > >> > Re: shaolin die da > >> > > >> > I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is > >> > definitely > >> > warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more > >> > problematic, and > >> > while I do make salves they are for skin problems where > >> > nourishing is more > >> > of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp > >> > heat itching > >> > recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, > >> > go figure. I > >> > think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what > >> > you want from the > >> > medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing > >> > agent (like bing > >> > pian, et al) your probably fine. > >> > > >> > Par > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > >> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > >> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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