Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 > " all we have is a vague but substantive worry > that our medicinals are being regulated out from under us, and that we > will > be outmoded by Western medicine using our technology without our ideas " > > I would suggest that this is not simply a matter of opinion but fact if we > look at the FDA and their holdup of many safe herbs just because. That is > a > restriction of trade and wrong, might also be illegal. Additionally > concerning is the increase of acupuncture and other healthcare modalities > into the medical school curricula. This move is not for referral but for > practice of medical acupuncture reasons. This is much more serious than > it > looks. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Hi Mike, I did not say it was a matter of opinion, I said it was " vague " , which means: -obscure: not clearly understood or expressed; " an obscure turn of phrase " -undefined: not precisely limited, determined, or distinguished; " an undefined term " ; " undefined authority " ; " some undefined sense of excitement " ; " vague feelings of sadness " ; " a vague uneasiness " -dim: lacking clarity or distinctness; " a dim figure in the distance " ; " only a faint recollection " ; " shadowy figures in the gloom " ; " saw a vague outline of a building through the fog " ; " a few wispy memories of childhood " Though I qualified this with " substantive " , which means: - substantial: being the essence or essential element of a thing; " substantial equivalents " ; " substantive information " -applying to essential legal principles and rules of right; " substantive law " -meaty: having substance and prompting thought -real, actual, essential I'm not downplaying these issues. I just don't think they are evident to the majority of people practicing today. There is a sense that something is wrong because there is something wrong, but it is not clearly defined. My question was: is this enough to motivate us to stand up and define ourselves as a field, to put something out there that is marketable in the broadest sense of the word. Once we establish ourselves as a competent and professional bunch of folks, across the board, then we will have a real say in what happens with our future. Unless we enter the public consciousness in that way we are easy to kill and the FDA or some other bunch of monkeys in suits will keep riding us like satanic cowboys and blaming us every time some moronic baseball player sweats himself to death while taking an inappropriately used medicinal. Tragedy, what a joke. What part of taking lots of speed and dehydrating himself seemed like a good idea? As for MD's sticking needles in people I think one of two things is going to happen: it will work and they will get curious, or it won't and they won't. While the medical establishment has chutzpa to burn I don't think they're going to be able to pull off: " Wow, look, we just invented acupuncture! " though maybe I'm being grossly optimistic. Most of the medical students that I have met with an interest in CM have been reasonable, deferential people who want to know more, and a lot of them have quickly understood that acupuncture is way beyond what they can handle as an additional " modality " . Of course there is a bunch of arrogant asses out there who will showboat on it, so what? Without arrogant asses not much would get done in Western medicine; it takes a lot of rocks to think that irradiating somebody after making big holes in them is a good idea. If we can show people that we are the people who do this stuff, who define this stuff, and that we all agree what this stuff is, we have it made. If we sit around and wait for other people to define us we are screwed. Look at chiropractors, people think " back pain = chiropractor " . Granted, it's a limited scope but they play that for all it's worth and some of them actually do some interesting stuff. As to how we define ourselves, I'm open to suggestions, but I think a serious dose of party line is in order, and all we have to do is look across the Pacific to the Party with the mostest, do a little work with Wenlin and we have all sorts of authority. Is everything coming out of China true, right, scientifically verifiable? Absolutely not. They have a good thing and they stick with it, and they change it when they think it needs changing. If we can figure out how to append nanotech and stem cell to this than more power to may he live forever, or whatever it is he wants to do. I'd settle to live until the next time somebody thinks bell bottoms are a good idea. Does everything we define ourselves as have to be scientifically verified? No, Chinese medicine has a pretty good track record, and I'm sure it will get better the more we work on it, but why should we be obliged to prove anything to anybody. If I can teach somebody to make 100% accurate diagnosis by doing some Yi Jing coins and sticking a needle in a patient and they always get better in one treatment*(see below) that is solid and I don't give a crap if somebody can or can't tell me why it is so with an MRI. Are the various forms of CM that have cropped up here and in other diaspora countries worthless? Absolutely not, but they aren't helping us define ourselves for public consumption purposes. Basically people want to know what we have got, they are spending billions on us and we are saying: " Oh yea, well wait till next week, we're going to be dowsing with lasers and injecting gerbils into acupoints! " We are still driven by charismatic types who amble around giving seminars and we spend a lot of time as a field chasing the flavor of the month. Chinese medicine is the flavor of the millennia and we should revel in that. Look at the way patients adore their acupuncturists, look at the trust they place in what seems to the average American like a pretty iffy scheme: " Needle in leg makes headache go away, uhhh, OK " . It's like banking, should be safe as houses, and if we can't get a picture of ourselves as a coherent profession across to the public then it is OUR fault. That's what I was saying. Par Scott *PS I can't actually do this, so do not sign up for my seminar**. **PPS I'm not even having a seminar. - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:58 PM Re: common ground > Par states, > > " all we have is a vague but substantive worry > that our medicinals are being regulated out from under us, and that we > will > be outmoded by Western medicine using our technology without our ideas " > > I would suggest that this is not simply a matter of opinion but fact if we > look at the FDA and their holdup of many safe herbs just because. That is > a > restriction of trade and wrong, might also be illegal. Additionally > concerning is the increase of acupuncture and other healthcare modalities > into the medical school curricula. This move is not for referral but for > practice of medical acupuncture reasons. This is much more serious than > it > looks. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I enjoyed this post, Par. You have a great sense of humor. Stand up TCM comedy, anyone? On May 10, 2005, at 9:51 PM, Par Scott wrote: > Are the various forms of CM that have cropped up here and in other > diaspora > countries worthless? Absolutely not, but they aren't helping us > define > ourselves for public consumption purposes. Basically people want > to know > what we have got, they are spending billions on us and we are > saying: " Oh > yea, well wait till next week, we're going to be dowsing with > lasers and > injecting gerbils into acupoints! " We are still driven by > charismatic types > who amble around giving seminars and we spend a lot of time as a field > chasing the flavor of the month. Chinese medicine is the flavor of > the > millennia and we should revel in that. Look at the way patients > adore their > acupuncturists, look at the trust they place in what seems to the > average > American like a pretty iffy scheme: " Needle in leg makes headache > go away, > uhhh, OK " . It's like banking, should be safe as houses, and if we > can't get > a picture of ourselves as a coherent profession across to the > public then it > is OUR fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 For a better idea of where we might want to go and how to get there think about the chiro and naturopath professions. Both have their own separate theory as well as knowledge of western science and use this to discuss their profession and also order lab tests for support or referal. Likewise, our kinsmen in China, Japan and Korea all have this ability also. Now they may not all use it but it is an important part of their medical training. While here in the states we have a fit if someone should suggest we need knowledge of both to practice. We should be reminded that CA school reqs provide for a substantial amount of western medicine/science in order that we are better able to communicate with other professionals (this is integration). Note that I said communicate not replace them. Like I have mentioned before, many of our leading authorites use routine lab tests to monitor herbal treatment or as an indicator of what is going. Being able to perform this better allows us integration into the healthcare system. The alternative is separation which is where I am hearing many want to go. We cannot go back in time nor are we an island unto ourselves. Isolationism is not the answer. I do agree with parts of Zev's comments about promoting a stronger education in OM but we can also have a strong WM component (as Alon has mentioned) too. In the end, having both allows for the maximum of practitioner ops and would still allow for individual/traditionalized type of care or employment in a western medical setting. We need to max ops for current and future grads/practitioners or we will shrink as a profession. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Par, I understood what you said but wanted to rant and make a point so that others might begin to understand as well. I agree with you and Zev and many others on the one hand but believe we need to approach this in a way that allows us to better join the healthcare system today, not tomorrow or some distant stardate to be determined. There are too many people out there who can benefit from us over WM. Now how do we do it? I suggested that we evaluate how both the chiropractors and most recently the ND have become successful and we can shorten the learning curve. Right now we lack control of our own profession and others with much less training have taken over. That might sit right with some but irritates the h**l out of me (just kidding). Hopefully, most of us can see the incongruities here that need to change. When we put our mind to making changes then we will improve. If we continue to only think small, individual thoughts that revolve around our own needs then we will continue to fail. We need more resources, critical solutions to problems and grassroot campaigns with patient support. We cannot do it alone and do not have unlimited funds. So what say you? Let's start by listing the professional issues that need to be overcome. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Par Scott " <parufus > > >Re: common ground redux >Wed, 11 May 2005 00:51:18 -0400 > > > " all we have is a vague but substantive worry > > that our medicinals are being regulated out from under us, and that we > > will > > be outmoded by Western medicine using our technology without our ideas " > > > > I would suggest that this is not simply a matter of opinion but fact if >we > > look at the FDA and their holdup of many safe herbs just because. That >is > > a > > restriction of trade and wrong, might also be illegal. Additionally > > concerning is the increase of acupuncture and other healthcare >modalities > > into the medical school curricula. This move is not for referral but >for > > practice of medical acupuncture reasons. This is much more serious than > > it > > looks. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > >Hi Mike, >I did not say it was a matter of opinion, I said it was " vague " , which >means: > > > >-obscure: not clearly understood or expressed; " an obscure turn of phrase " > >-undefined: not precisely limited, determined, or distinguished; " an >undefined term " ; " undefined authority " ; " some undefined sense of >excitement " ; " vague feelings of sadness " ; " a vague uneasiness " > >-dim: lacking clarity or distinctness; " a dim figure in the distance " ; > " only >a faint recollection " ; " shadowy figures in the gloom " ; " saw a vague outline >of a building through the fog " ; " a few wispy memories of childhood " > > > > > >Though I qualified this with " substantive " , which means: > > > > - substantial: being the essence or essential element of a thing; > " substantial equivalents " ; " substantive information " > > -applying to essential legal principles and rules of right; " substantive >law " > > -meaty: having substance and prompting thought > > -real, actual, essential > > > >I'm not downplaying these issues. I just don't think they are evident to >the majority of people practicing today. There is a sense that something >is >wrong because there is something wrong, but it is not clearly defined. My >question was: is this enough to motivate us to stand up and define >ourselves >as a field, to put something out there that is marketable in the broadest >sense of the word. Once we establish ourselves as a competent and >professional bunch of folks, across the board, then we will have a real say >in what happens with our future. Unless we enter the public consciousness >in >that way we are easy to kill and the FDA or some other bunch of monkeys in >suits will keep riding us like satanic cowboys and blaming us every time >some moronic baseball player sweats himself to death while taking an >inappropriately used medicinal. Tragedy, what a joke. What part of taking >lots of speed and dehydrating himself seemed like a good idea? > > > > As for MD's sticking needles in people I think one of two things is going >to happen: it will work and they will get curious, or it won't and they >won't. >While the medical establishment has chutzpa to burn I don't think they're >going to be able to pull off: " Wow, look, we just invented acupuncture! " >though maybe I'm being grossly optimistic. Most of the medical students >that I have met with an interest in CM have been reasonable, deferential >people who want to know more, and a lot of them have quickly understood >that >acupuncture is way beyond what they can handle as an additional " modality " . >Of course there is a bunch of arrogant asses out there who will showboat on >it, so what? Without arrogant asses not much would get done in Western >medicine; it takes a lot of rocks to think that irradiating somebody after >making big holes in them is a good idea. > > > >If we can show people that we are the people who do this stuff, who define >this stuff, and that we all agree what this stuff is, we have it made. If >we sit around and wait for other people to define us we are screwed. Look >at chiropractors, people think " back pain = chiropractor " . Granted, it's a >limited scope but they play that for all it's worth and some of them >actually do some interesting stuff. As to how we define ourselves, I'm >open >to suggestions, but I think a serious dose of party line is in order, and >all we have to do is look across the Pacific to the Party with the mostest, >do a little work with Wenlin and we have all sorts of authority. > > > >Is everything coming out of China true, right, scientifically verifiable? >Absolutely not. They have a good thing and they stick with it, and they >change it when they think it needs changing. If we can figure out how to >append nanotech and stem cell to this than more power to may he live >forever, or whatever it is he wants to do. I'd settle to live until the >next time somebody thinks bell bottoms are a good idea. Does everything we >define ourselves as have to be scientifically verified? No, Chinese >medicine has a pretty good track record, and I'm sure it will get better >the >more we work on it, but why should we be obliged to prove anything to >anybody. If I can teach somebody to make 100% accurate diagnosis by doing >some Yi Jing coins and sticking a needle in a patient and they always get >better in one treatment*(see below) that is solid and I don't give a crap >if >somebody can or can't tell me why it is so with an MRI. > > > >Are the various forms of CM that have cropped up here and in other diaspora >countries worthless? Absolutely not, but they aren't helping us define >ourselves for public consumption purposes. Basically people want to know >what we have got, they are spending billions on us and we are saying: " Oh >yea, well wait till next week, we're going to be dowsing with lasers and >injecting gerbils into acupoints! " We are still driven by charismatic >types >who amble around giving seminars and we spend a lot of time as a field >chasing the flavor of the month. Chinese medicine is the flavor of the >millennia and we should revel in that. Look at the way patients adore >their >acupuncturists, look at the trust they place in what seems to the average >American like a pretty iffy scheme: " Needle in leg makes headache go away, >uhhh, OK " . It's like banking, should be safe as houses, and if we can't >get >a picture of ourselves as a coherent profession across to the public then >it >is OUR fault. > > > >That's what I was saying. > > > >Par Scott > >*PS I can't actually do this, so do not sign up for my seminar**. >**PPS I'm not even having a seminar. > > >- > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > >Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:58 PM >Re: common ground > > > > Par states, > > > > " all we have is a vague but substantive worry > > that our medicinals are being regulated out from under us, and that we > > will > > be outmoded by Western medicine using our technology without our ideas " > > > > I would suggest that this is not simply a matter of opinion but fact if >we > > look at the FDA and their holdup of many safe herbs just because. That >is > > a > > restriction of trade and wrong, might also be illegal. Additionally > > concerning is the increase of acupuncture and other healthcare >modalities > > into the medical school curricula. This move is not for referral but >for > > practice of medical acupuncture reasons. This is much more serious than > > it > > looks. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Thanks, Zev. I always enjoy your reasoned, insightful statements : ). - " " <zrosenbe Wednesday, May 11, 2005 1:13 AM Re: common ground redux >I enjoyed this post, Par. You have a great sense of humor. Stand up > TCM comedy, anyone? > > > On May 10, 2005, at 9:51 PM, Par Scott wrote: > >> Are the various forms of CM that have cropped up here and in other >> diaspora >> countries worthless? Absolutely not, but they aren't helping us >> define >> ourselves for public consumption purposes. Basically people want >> to know >> what we have got, they are spending billions on us and we are >> saying: " Oh >> yea, well wait till next week, we're going to be dowsing with >> lasers and >> injecting gerbils into acupoints! " We are still driven by >> charismatic types >> who amble around giving seminars and we spend a lot of time as a field >> chasing the flavor of the month. Chinese medicine is the flavor of >> the >> millennia and we should revel in that. Look at the way patients >> adore their >> acupuncturists, look at the trust they place in what seems to the >> average >> American like a pretty iffy scheme: " Needle in leg makes headache >> go away, >> uhhh, OK " . It's like banking, should be safe as houses, and if we >> can't get >> a picture of ourselves as a coherent profession across to the >> public then it >> is OUR fault. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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