Guest guest Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I agree with Par and Bob, alcohol is warming. I would also say that it is warming both internally and exteranlly. It is the next best solvent to water for organic chemicals and superior to vinegar. However, I do like to use vinegar for some specific things. An example is when making a tincture of da huang it is a good idea to include 10% vinegar in your solution, this helps the extraction process. As a solvent I would rank vinegar fourth after glycerin and the problems, such as those suggested by Ed are clear. I have experimented with different vinegar tinctures over the years and there is a tradition of making certian types of vinegar tinctures in Western herbalism. These are mostly seen as " nutrative " tinctures, which is not the same as " supplementing " as a concept in Chinese medicine. Oil extraction is completely different and one that must be done right if there is to be a reasonable product. Oil can be used internally or externally, though mostly used externally. Certian types of chemicals dissovle more readily in oil than water or even alcohol, though many of the chemicals we are looking for that dissolve in oil, such as resin, also dissolve in alcohol, hot water, and glycerin (though, perhaps, not quite as well). Plant pharmacy is a dying art and one that I have spent a great deal of time studying. I know there are some others on this list, such as you Par, who have also put significant effort into understanding this art/science. Unfortunately there isn't a really good reference for doing this work with Chinese herbs. I started an outline once on someone's request but I doubt there is much of a market for it...... :-( Thomas wrote: There are 9 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: shaolin die da " Bob Flaws " 2. Re: shaolin die da " jreidomd " 3. RE: shaolin die da " Ed Kasper LAc " 4. Re: RE: shaolin die da " Par Scott " 5. Re: RE: shaolin die da Cara Frank 6. Toenail fungus " " 7. vinegar yehuda l frischman 8. Re: vinegar Cara Frank 9. Re: Toenail fungus Marnae Ergil ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Mon, 16 May 2005 16:19:20 -0000 " Bob Flaws " Re: shaolin die da I agree with Par: alcohol is warm/hot in nature. No Chinese source of which I'm aware suggests anything different. BTW, back from Mexico where we had our best Blue Poppy " Retreat " ever. You should'a been there. Bob , " Par Scott " wrote: > I don't see alcohol as cooling. It's internal function is definitely > warming, it is moving and acrid... oil extraction is more problematic, and > while I do make salves they are for skin problems where nourishing is more > of an issue. I made an alcohol based treatment for damp heat itching > recently which has been working pretty well for the patient, go figure. I > think as long as you use a solvent that will extract what you want from the > medicinals and something in the oil as a barrier crossing agent (like bing > pian, et al) your probably fine. > > Par > - > " Daniel " > To: > Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:51 PM > Re: shaolin die da > > > > Frances, Par, Stephen, > > > > Thanks for your invaluable feedback! Since there often is internal > > cold around the injury, as a result of the Qi and Blood stagnation, Qi > > Xue Bu Tong, would you not rather use an oil-based, warming > > ointment/paste/salve instead of an alcohol-based, cooling liniment? > > (Frances, I noticed the TDP lamp which would solve this problem, at > > the clinic.) What about for home use? > > > > Again, thanks to all, regards, > > > > Daniel C. Luthi > > > > > > > > In terms of pattern differentiation most of the people I have worked with > > break it down into: > > > > New injury: Primary focus is on moving blood, with internal formulas that > > address blood moving and qi moving, and in cases where there is > > constipation > > as a manifestation of qi stasis and disruption of the qi mechanism, moving > > the bowels is important. This is moderated in vacuous patients and > > supplementation is used where indicated. If this fails to resolve > > issues... > > > > Sub-Acute: usually a combination of moderate supplementation > > (typically with > > what are thought of as bone strengthening yang supplementing medicinals) > > with invigorating blood and moving qi. > > > > Chronic: Usually moving blood and qi, with a focus on elimating wind damp > > and cold and sometimes supplementation. > > > > These categories are supplemented with a regular TCM dx. > > > > Formulas vary a lot. Martial formulas seem to be predicated on a good > > constitution and are consequentially fairly harsh and strong, though > > external use medicinals are much safer and at times have very different > > effects than when used internally (I don't think twice about using cao > > wu on > > the outside, I don't think I would use it internally). > > > > Additionally there is a category of " skin penetrating " items used in > > topical > > die da formulas. Some of these are thorns, like zao jiao ci and gou teng, > > some are aromatic opening medicinals like ping pian, and I think she > > xiang's > > use in die da falls into this category (though it does get used in > > internal > > rx for blood moving). > > > > In terms of formula making and extraction I think for practical purposes > > 50%/50% water alcohol works best (and it's conveniently the content of > > cheap > > vodka). Some stuff extracts better in one or the other, but it's a pain to > > do separately. The practitioner I observe most uses 70% white Chinese > > cooking " wine " . For faster extraction grind or otherwise increase surface > > area of your medicinals. Some people recommend repeatedly steaming and > > drying medicinals to break down starchy cell walls before soaking but I > > think this blows off to many aromatics and if you beat the crap out of > > things when powdering it will break down the cell structure some. Firmly > > cap the bottle with something that *will* blow out under excess pressure > > (e.g., rubber plug as opposed to a metal cap) and use a incandescent light > > bulb underneath as a mild heat source (please set this up in such a way as > > to avoid an electrical fire). Every five degrees of temperature roughly > > doubles extraction rates. Firm covering maintains volatiles and keeps your > > alcohol content high, as alcohol is important in terms of moving blood. > > This will give you a much faster extraction. A bit fancier is a soxhlet > > extractor, which is a still that drips solvent (alcohol) through your > > medicinals. This is very fast (mine does in 12-24 hours what looks like a > > couple of months of soaking) but you need to do a better job of powdering > > medicinals. I haven't been able to find a good cheap bulk soxhlet online, > > mine is an old hippy model made for hash production with a capacity of > > about > > one quart that is very '70's looking. > > > > I would be interested in any collections of die da rx people run > > across, it > > would be interesting to look at and compare formula composition. > > > > Par Scott > > > > - > > " frances gander " > > To: > > Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:06 PM > > shaolin die da > > > > > >> Daniel, > >> > >> I use die da in my clinic with TDP lamp and appropriate ap for (what > >> else?) achey joints and low back. I can't say I use it with any pattern > >> differentiation, other than moving qi and blood. I give it in dropper > >> bottles for home application. Your method seems elaborate. I soak my > >> herbs in rubbing alcohol of the lower % (or vodka) for one month, > >> uncovered. I am currently fooling around with some variations, but this > >> is the basic recipe (probably from Sichuan): > >> > >> dang gui 10g chuan xiong 15 > >> hong hua 30 san leng 15 > >> tian san qi 20 ru xiang 12 > >> e zhu 10 mo yao 12 > >> xue jie 10 qian nian jian 15 > >> bing pian 12 gu sui bu 15 > >> mu dan pi > >> 12 > >> > >> I like it to be somewhat thick and rich with a deep rooty aroma. Surely > >> there are many ways of making die da (and uses) and I look forward to > >> the discussions. I am particularly interested in external herbal > >> formulas. Thank you. > >> > >> Frances Gander, R.Ac. > >> 11315 Jackson Dr. > >> The Plains, OH 45780 > >> 740-797-9297 > >> > >>>shao lin die da > >>> > >>>I am collecting ALL info on shao lin die da for a class and > >>>demonstration of this formula, for external use. I would like pattern > >>>differentiation, syndromes (if pattern fits), ingredients, how many > >>>liang/qian each herb, carrier oils used, cautions (beyond text > >>>books?), preparation methods, case studies, external observations for > >>>pulse, tongue, palpation, etc., personal observations and opinions. > >>> > >>>Tian- Qi- > >>>Dang- Gui- > >>>Hong/ Hua- > >>>Jiang- Huang/ > >>>Xue\ Jie/ > >>>Ru~ Xiang- > >>> > >>>My prep method: > >>> > >>>Have " marinated " in olive oil and grapeseed oil for several days - > >>>after crushing all herbs - followed by heating and stirring without > >>>bringing to simmer/boil, then cool-down. Next day added bees' wax at > >>>repeated heating, and, after cool-down, added vitamin E oil for > > stability. > >>> > >>>La jiao (hot pepper) powder has been on my mind as well as rou\ gui\, > >>>cinnamon cortex, both for alleviation of pain as well as aromatics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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