Diagnosis, acupuncture, and cross pollination

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In a message dated 5/20/05 3:39:37 PM, its_antonborja writes:

 

 

> The complete curriculum hours

> for an ND school is approx. 4000 hours with the

> majority of hours in western sciences. 

>

 

So, when do they learn natural medicine, homeopathy, herbs, water therapy,

nutrition, diet, all the supplementive specialties, manipulative physical

medicine, ND psychology, natural clinical studies, not to mention chinese herbal

medicine and all the chinese modalities? I'm assuming that they require 60+

credit hours of hard science prerequisites for entry.

 

Do acupuncturists really study that much about OM to the exclusion of any

conventional information? I realize that some of the acupuncture luddite types

work hard not to acquire any ability to do conventional practices that may save

their patients lives (why is CPR NOT required in OM training and licensure, as

an example), but even so much of TCM requires some Conventional knowledge to

grasp.

 

It is my impression that the chasm is more like a gulch. Given that it is not

the exact same information or expressed in the same way, but it is for the

most part there, in most written programs.

 

That said......

 

" Just as others have said before, If you want to give a

western med diagnosis, go back to western med school,

or push for an improvement in our existing TCM

curriculum.  Until then, when we try to act like MDs

we will rightfully be called MD wannabes...A wannabe-

a person who WANTS TO BE like someone else to increase

their stature, prestige, etc. but does not have the

skills... "

 

......It is nowhere near the level of an MD, nor should it be. A physical

medicine diagnosis is not diagnosing a cancer. Specific levels of diagnosis

require specific levels of education. I would not go to a DC or ND for a western

medicine diagnosis on something complex. In fact, I would be careful about which

MD I went to, but that is another story. Everyone has their specialties, but

only OM folks have the low self esteem to believe that they cannot know enough

western medicine for practice independence and to know when to refer out and

wish to have that ability stripped from themselves because of their " not

wanting to be an MD " . Admittedly, the colleges have generally left us barefoot

and

pregnant with their choices regarding conventional medicine to a large extent.

New MExico has made good strides in working with other fields of medicine to

discern what is necessary to use thier modalities, within chosen limits.

Sure, we need to be able to make general diagnoses for referrals and to make

specific diagnoses to retain our independence to treat specific disorders

within our training. But do we need to be an MD to do a diagnosis? No. Do we

need

to be a DC or ND? No. We as a profession do need to get off our butts and

decide what it is that we can do well and shape our curriculum to meet our

needs, as the ACAOM doctoral task force seems to be doing from what I read.

Hey. MD's and in some states DC's can do acupuncture with 50 hours or less if

you use didactic actual training. ND's in general are interested in

developing ethical numbers, as are some DC's and MD's. We need to get real and

work

with them to decide how to inter-relate between professions regarding cross

training. We have chosen not to talk for over 20 years. If we work with them to

develop criteria for our western medicine education and they work with us to

develop OM modality education, the patients will benefit. I know such talk is

heresy, but I'm no longer on the board of AAOM, so I can pose the question.

 

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

 

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[Guest guest]

David,

 

Just for discussion purposes, I am including the

curriculum for Southwest college of Naturopathic med.

 

--Quarter 1 Fall/Spring

NTMD 605 Philosophy of Naturopathic Medicine & History

of Medicine 2

PSYC 604 Healthy Communication (2)

ANAT 603 Regional Anatomy I / Lab (5.5)/(1.5)

ANAT 606 Embryology (3)

ANAT 610 Microscopic Anatomy/Lab (3/1)

BIOC 605 Medical Biochemistry I (6)

HMEO 620 Intro to Homeopathic Medicine (2)

Total 26 Credits

 

Quarter 2 Winter/Summer

NTMD Physician Heal Thyself (2)

ANAT 604 Regional Anatomy II/Lab (6.5)/(2)

PHYS 605 Cell Function and Organ Systems I (5)/(1)

BIOC 606 Medical Biochemistry II (6)

NUTR 620 History of Nutrition and Diet/Detoxification

(2)

Total 24.5 Credits

 

Quarter 3 Spring/Fall

BOTM 640 Historical Use of Plant as Medicines 2

ANAT 627 Neuroanatomy/Lab (5.5) (1.5)

MGEN 607 Medical Genetics 2

MICR 640 Microbiology/Lab (3)/(1)

PHYS 610 Cell Function & Organ Systems II (4)/(.5)

RSCH 810 Basic Concepts of Research 1

PHYS 629 Endocrinology 4

PHMD 605 Touch as Treatment/Lab (1)/(.5)

 

Total 26 Credits

Quarter 4 Summer/Winter

JURI 720 Jurisprudence 20

HYDR 615 Principles of Hydrotherapy (1.5)

PHYS 614 Immunology (3)

PSYC 660 Fundamentals of Mind-Body Medicine (2)

OMND 605 Theory and Fundamentals of Oriental Medicine

(2)

PUBH 620 Epidemiology (3)

PHYS 615 Cell Function and Organ System III (4)/(.5)

PHMD 710 Introduction to Physical Medicine (1.5)

NUTR 640 Food Analysis (2)

RSCH 830 Conducting Clinical Research (1)

Total 22.5 Credits

 

Quarter 5 Fall/Spring

PATH 625 Pathophysiology & Disease Process (4)

PHMD 735 Physiotherapy Modalities (2)

PSYC 740 Counseling Theories & Practice (2)

PUBH 670 Concepts & Practices of Public Health (2)

OMND 610 Traditional Diagnosis (3)

BOTM 720 Southwest Botanicals (2)

PHMD 740 NMT Assessment & Application I/Lab (2)/(1)

HYDR 770 Advanced Hydrotherapy Techniques 2

BOTM 680 Pharmacy of Botanical Medicine (2)

NUTR 680 Integrative Nutritional Biochemistry (3)

RSCH 860 Evaluation of Research (1)

Total 26

 

Quarter 6 Winter/Summer

PATH 635 Organ Systems & Disease I (4)

PHDX 650 Physical Assessment I (3)/(1)

LBDX 650 Assessment of Laboratory Techniques I (2)

RDDX 650 Diagnostic Techniques & Assessment I (2)

CACR 650 Clinical Assessment/Case Review I (6)

CLLP 651 Clinical Lab Procedures (1)/(.5)

OMND 705 Meridians & Points I (3)

PHMD 770 NMT Assessment and Application II (3)/(1)

ETHC Medical Ethics (2)

Total 27.5

 

Quarter 7 Spring/Fall

CACR 710 Clinical Assessment/Case Review II (6)

RDDX 710 Diagnostic Techniques & Assessment II (2)

PHDX 710 Physical Assessment II (3)/(1)

LBDX 710 Assessment of Laboratory Techniques II (2)

CLLP 711 Medical Procedures (1)/(.5)

NUTR 730 Nutrition Diagnostics & Treatment Protocol

(2)

OMND 710 Meridians & Points II (3)

PHAR 700 Drug Classifications (4)

PATH 710 Organ Systems & Disease II (4)

Total 27.5 Credits

 

Quarter 8 Summer/Winter

CACR 730 Clinical Assessment/Case Review III (6)

RDDX 730 Diagnostic Techniques & Assessment III (2)

PHDX 730 Physical Assessment III (3)/(1)

LBDX 730 Assessment of Lab Techniques III (2)

CLLP 731 Intravenous Therapy (2)

CTNG 740 Clinical Entry Assessment (3)

BOTM 743 Naturopathic Materia Medica, Phrmacognosy &

Therapy I (2)

OMND 800 Traditional Pathology (3)

PHAR 710 Drug Classifications & Toxicology (4)

MNGT 760 Practice Management (1)

HMEO 730 Homeopathic Materia Medica, Repertory & Case

Taking I (3)

Total 30 Credits

 

Quarter 9 Fall/Spring

BOTM 744 Naturopathic Therapeutics, Materia Medica,

Pharmacognosy II (2)

ERMD 740 Emergency Medicine I (2)

CLSC 764 Pediatrics (3)

CLSC 762 EENT (2)

CLSC 763 Neurology (2)

GRND 764 Grand Rounds (2)

OMND 812 Acupuncture Techniques (1)/(.5)

HMEO 750 Homeopathic Materia Medica, Repetory & Case

Taking II (2)

CLTR 760 Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)

Clinical Posts (3)

Total 23.5 Credits

 

Quarter 10 Winter/Summer

OMND 815 Oriental Medicine - Case Analysis (2)

HMEO 770 Homeopathic Materia Medica, Repetory & Case

Taking III (3)

CLSC 771 Obstetrics (3)

CLSC 790 Gynecology (3)

CLSC 773 Urology (including men's health) (3)

CLSC 790 Geriatrics (2)

CLSC 791 Viral Disorders/HIV (2)

GRND 784 Grand Rounds (2)

ERMD 760 Emergency Management II (3)

CLTR Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)

Total 27 Credits

 

Quarter 11 Spring/Fall

NUTR 752 Nutritional Needs Across the Lifespan (2)

BOTM 817 Naturopathic Materia Medica, Pharmacognosy, &

Therapeutics III (2)

HMEO 810 Patient Management and Case Taking (2)

MSRG 810 Minor Surgery (2)/(.5)

PUBH 760 Environmental Medicine (2)

CLSC 812 Dermatology (2)

CLSC 813 Endocrinology (2)

GRND 814 Grand Rounds (2)

MNGT 801 Business Practice Management II (2)

OMND 865 Oriental Medicine - Case Management (2)

CLTR 815 Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)

Total 25 Credots

 

Quarter 12 Summer/Winter

NUTR 810 Eating Disorders and Prescriptions in

Addictive Behaviors (2)

BOTM 831 Botanical Medicine Therapeutics - Developing

Clinical Proficiency (2)

PSYC 835 Practicum in Mind-Body Healing (2)

CLSC 831 Cardiology (2)

CLSC 832 Pulmonology (2)

CLSC 833 Gastroenterology (2)

GRND 834 Grand Rounds (2)

RSCH 880 Research Project (1)

PHAR 780 Drug Comparisons & Detoxification (3)

CLTR 830 Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)

Total 22 Credits

 

Quarter 13 Fall/Spring

MNGT 802 Business Practice Management III (3)

MSRG 890 Advanced Techniques in Minor Surgery (1)/(.5)

CLSC 861 Rheumatology (2)

CLSC 881 Oncology (2)

GRND 864 Grand Rounds (2)

PHMD 820 Sports Medicine (4)

CLTR 850 Clinical Training (3 Shifts) (6)

Total 20.5 Credits

 

Quarter 14 Winter/Summer

NTMD 880 Analysis & Integration of Naturopathic

Philosophy & Practice (2)

GRND 884 Case Management (2)

MNGT 803 Business Practice Management IV (2)

PSYC 860 Intervention with Transitional Traumatic

States of Mental Health (2)

HMEO 862 Advanced Case Management (2)

CLTR Clinical Training (5 Shifts) (10)

Total 20 Credits

 

Quarter 15 Spring/Fall

GRND 881 Grand Rounds (1)

CLTR Clinical Training (7Shifts) (14)

Total 15 Credits

 

Quarter 16 Summer/Winter

GRND 883 Grand Rounds (1)

CLTR Clinical Training (7 Shifts) (14)

Total 15 Credits

 

Totals for 16-Quarter Degree Program

Classroom/Lab Instruction 315 Quarter Credits

Clinical Training 63 Quarter Credits

 

Grand Total 4575

 

 

Quite a significant difference from the curriculum of

a TCM school. But in my opinion, a much more thorough

curriculum to prepare the ND for the role of a GP or

family practitioner which is essentially how they fit

themselves into the healthcare pie. Yes you are right

for more " Specific levels of diagnosis " you would not

go to a ND, DC or even an MD who is a GP or FP, but

their curriculum much better prepares these

practitioners to catch these cases, and refer if

necessary. You and I agree that our schools need to

improve the curriculum, how to improve it is for

another debate. You mentioned..

> only OM folks have the low self esteem to believe

> that they cannot know enough

> western medicine for practice independence

I don't think its low self esteem, I for one do not

want to see our profession take a step backwards by

the loss of the little diagnostic authority we have,

but I believe we as profession need to admit to

ourselves(never mind admitting to outside

organizations eg. AMA, patients, etc.)that our

diagnostic capabilities, even in physical diagnosis is

weak, and should be improved. But until the schools

take the lead, each individual practitioner has to

improve their skills by whatever means possible(more

school, Lerner's classes, etc.)

 

I want to see OM utilized to its full potential in the

US healthcare system, Internal med, gynec., oncology,

etc.etc. But we are not there yet-(i disagree, it is

more like a chasm than a gulch). I am a newer

practitioner, and i do not want to be stuck treating

leftover ortho and pain cases for the rest of my

career. Id much rather bite the bullet and go back to

school to get the diagnostic authority and greater

scope of professional practice which is available in

other medical professions eg. DO and ND.

 

And so I trudge on with school.

 

Anton

 

 

 

...Infinite gratitude to all things past..

....Infinite respect to all things present...

.....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

......Tao.....