qi and self-organization - the pattern that connects

[Guest guest]

I am a big fan of Ilya Prigogine and I think his concepts of

open-systems have a lot to offer our understanding of Qi. It takes

some explanation to explain where I am at, but please bear with me.

 

Here is my angle - if we " move someone's stagnant qi " in a treatment

of someone under stress, we know acupuncture does this very well and

very easily. The problem is, these people keep coming back every week

and the challenges of their live continue to bear down on them after

they leave the clinic. We haven't changed their ability to handle

stress, just given them temporary reprieve, so what is the point? We

could be accused of doing what we say western med does often, that of

masking symptoms and thereby encouraging the pattern to continue.

 

The conclusion that I came to is that to really deal with chronic

body/mind stress without doing things like changing their life and

recommending them live in the mountains or something, we have to be

able to teach/make patients circulate their qi better. That way even

though their external circumstances do not change, they are able to

thrive better than before. I think sometimes acupuncture can help

achieve this, but I don't want to get into how/when right now.

Suffice to say that improving " qi circulating ability " is better than

just " moving qi " .

 

But what exactly is this " qi circulating ability " ? I think a good way

to look at it is using a few of the terms we have been using here - it

is about the self-regulating ability of the CNS under stress, stress

being times of increased entropy/information in-flows. If the

system/CNS is of a higher enough level of organisational complexity,

it will be able to take in the extra flow of info/qi and let it flow

right out again without itself being severely disrupted. If it is

not, the extra info threatens the integrity of that system's " pattern "

or " shape " and could even potentially destroy it. To prevent this

outcome, a common reaction of the system is to block the flow of

Qi/info to slow down the input and protect itself. Qi stasis is in

this way perhaps a natural reaction to what could destroy us.

 

This is why people that do Qigong, Taiji, and meditation are able to

remain calmer in stressful situations than others. They are

essentially training every day to make the organisation of the CNS

more complex, and therefore more easily handle greater flows of Qi and

to safely let it all out again. Taking in everything, and emptying

themselves completely out into the world again, attached to nothing.

 

This then brings me to a synthesis of the two concepts of Qi that I

like to use - that of Qi as consciousness, and that

of Qi as information.

 

What everything in the universe is is part of some sort of open-system

that Ilya Prigogine described, of information coming in and coming

out. There are many systems within systems of course. That

mysterious force that even allows things to pattern, that " pattern

that connects " to quote Gregory Bateson, is a manifestation of what we

mean by Qi as being everywhere and connects everthing, and a reason

why TCM Macrocosm/microcosm concepts have truth. It is not a thing of

matter, it is not " energy " in the physics sense, it is prior to even

those two fundamentals. It allows those two to exist!

 

I think that our brain/CNS and our mind is a perfect example of an

evolving open-system. If I may take a bit of a leap here, I think

that an evolving system could also be what " mind " actually means, on

varying scales. So that the ant does not have ego, but maybe the

ant's nest as an open evolving system does (at least more than the

ant), and does " think " in a way and can communicate even with other

ant's nests as peers. Even the society we are part of, with all it's

complex self-regulating mechanisms, could have some sort of

consciousness above all us individuals in it. Mind doesn't have to be

made up of brain cells interacting. As soon as you get a system of

sufficient complexity, at whatever scale, you get mind!

 

 

 

--

 

Work: 0402 111 492

Mobile: 0403 103 807

Fax: (02) 9592 2993

MSN Messenger: lymchan

 

 

 

,

wrote:

> There is a fundamental idea in biochemistry (and chemistry in

> general), which is that chemicals and molecules have what are

called

> self-organizing tendencies. Put basic stuff in a given

environment

> and it will react and interact. The materialistic view of life is

> that it arose from this self-organizing tendency plus the right

> environment. Humans eventually resulted from the evolution of

these

> self-organizing organisms. We were not inevitable, just a product

of

> chance and the natural tendency for matter to self-organize. Most

> scientists do not believe it is likely that there are ANY humanoid

> aliens who evolved on other worlds in this galaxy (though perhaps

we

> did not evolve here, but that's another story).

>

> It could be argued that the whole universe is alive by the

definition

> of life as self-organizing. I like that. It is like the

> neoconfucian idea that everything has qi. I understand the big

Dao

> to be the unmanifest, the original chaos, from which order is

> constantly emerging and being reabsorbed. It is not conscious in

> that personal way (an intelligent designer), but rather is the

source

> of consciousness as it manifests intelligent behavior in the form

of

> self-organization from the moment of the big bang. Perhaps there

is

> an intelligent designer that created certain fundamental forces or

> irreducible structures (god the engineer). I just don't think the

> Dao was ever conceived by any Chinese philosophers in that sense

of

> spiritual.

>

> But that still leaves us with this mysterious force of self-

> organization. What does it mean? The modern ideas I have always

> thought came closest to the certain aspects of the qi paradigm

> involved systems theory, information science, complexity and

> computational theory, all of which depend upon the principle of

self-

> organization to some degree. Qi is associated with all the

functions

> of the body (warming, transforming, defending, etc.), yet we know

of

> the molecules involved in these processes, but have not yet found

the

> qi. Qi leads to tissues being nourished and wastes excreted. I

have

> argued elsewhere this may be the primary function of what is

called

> the qi dynamic. This proper balance of nutrition, defense,

movement

> and excretion are dependent upon the proper production and

> organization of molecules. These are the cellular transformations

of

> qi. Materialists say these systems self-organize. Vitalists say

> something hierarchical does the organizing of gross matter (the

LIFE

> force, as it were). To a materialist, the qi paradigm merely

> describes something, but provides no evidence of causality.

>

> There are other discrete invisible forces in nature (all of which

> play essential roles in self-organization at either macro or micro

> levels). These include gravity, electromagnetism and the strong

and

> weak nuclear forces. They can only be known by their effects.

They

> cannot be isolated in any way. Perhaps qi is like one of these,

but

> the biological equivalent. I used to think that qi must be the

> dysentropic force that counters the tendency of all CLOSED

chemical

> systems in labs to move towards equilibrium or death. However in

> nature and labs, OPEN chemical systems do not move towards death,

but

> interact in ever greater complexity producing new forms as long as

> material to exploit abound. And this move away from entropy

happens

> in systems that fall far short of the conventional definition of

> life. If everything is alive and intelligent to some degree

> (everything has qi), then there really is no dividing line between

so-

> called life and so-called chemicals. All chemistry becomes

> biochemistry. It is certainly not so-called life alone that forms

> regular, persistent dysentropic forms.

>

> So there does not seem to be a life force that is unique to so-

called

> life. Self-organization and development of complex forms occurs

in

> much of the nonliving world. The neoconfucians when thinking

about

> the same idea seemed to have come to the same conclusion when they

> decided all manifest existence was infused with qi. The most

> essential quality of qi to these philosophers was its ability to

> transform. Changing one thing to another is also essential for

self-

> organization. This idea is also common to ayurveda, where even

> minerals have prana and can thus affect animals. How could a dead

> lump at equilibrium have profound effects on physiology. In fact,

> our bodies depend on rocks in the form of mineral ions. We assume

we

> are using this dead stuff for our lives, but how could death feed

> life. Only an already organized substance (electrons in a certain

> configuration around a nucleus of certain weight) could aid in the

> further and more complex organizations of biology. Could it be

that

> self-organization is just a property of nature and has no greater

> meaning or cause than that, just like mass exerts gravity? It is

the

> strange quirk of our existence that confuses this obvious logic.

> There must be some reason other than chance that we are here. I

> won't touch that one except to comment that many scientists DO

> believe there is probably NONHUMANOID life on other planets and

that

> it may have become self-aware in some cases.

>

> Finally, if qi was like gravity or electromagnetism, why is it not

> measurable or predictable like these forces? We can't say that is

> because it is biological, because the most sophisticated

philosophers

> of qi from china would point out that qi is in rocks and streams.

> And conversely, we are able to measure electromagnetism and even

> nuclear resonance from biological tissues, so merely being encased

in

> cellular walls does not render a physical force inaccessible to

> measurement. If it was a discrete force, then it would leave its

> traces just like gravity or photons do. The chinese, koreans and

> russians (soviets and old east bloc, I should say) used to do lots

of

> experiments to try and identify qi as a force like EM waves, as

yet

> undiscovered. In 50 years, not one peer reviewed article lending

> credence to this idea has been published. Now these same

countries

> do stem cell research and no one there is talking about the qi

> paradigm as the cutting edge of 21st century medicine. The qi

> paradigm can be used to produce interesting models of systems

> interactions based upon its long use as an observational tool, but

I

> would like to see our profession formally let go of the idea that

qi

> is some sort of force natural or supernatural. Almost every

> mainstream press release on TCM begins with a blurb about qi,

energy,

> body, mind and spirit. We ned to issue a press release insisting

we

> have no idea where these ideas came from, but they have nothing to

do

> with professional TCM in america.

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lionel,

 

I've been thinking along the same lines - I've been intrigued by

Prigogine's work for several decades. Herbs and acupuncture both have a

common problem, in that they are techniques that are " performed on " clients

and do not actively engage their minds and bodies. That's why to jostle

people out of their ruts, their minds and bodies need to be engaged is some

activity that allows their systems to reorganize - as you mention below,

meditation, Qi Gong, TaiJi are disciplines that DO actively engage the

person, and that is why they have effects at a deeper level. Moshe

Feldenkrais was an individual who understood how simple movement patterns

could trigger permanent changes in neurological systems dynamics and

developed a series of simple exercises based on his theories and

observations; I happen to like his system because people can learn it much

faster than TaiJi or QiGong and get noticeable benefits from it.

 

From a systems perspective, if you have a person with specific set of TCM

patterns, you can characterize their system dynamics with sets of linear

equations that decribe input-output characteristics, and you can determine

an herbal formula that will move the system toward a more normal state, but

if the system is purely linear and passive, once the herbs are stopped, the

system will usually revert to its previous state. (Thus the debate on this

forum of whether Chinese herbs ever permanently " cure " anyone.)

 

However, humans are complex, self-organizing systems that have the capacity

to alter their own systems dynamics. The question is what types of

activities are most effective at doing this? In my own explorations of

other cultures as well as my own (European-American), I've concluded that

exercise forms, dancing, and music are almost universal phenomena that

achieve these functions. And when you combine them, as many cultures do,

you have a doubly potent effect, as in music and dancing. Of course, as

with any powerful set of tools, these can be used just as easily to trap

people in mental-physical states that are unhealthy, and I feel that a lot

of so-called popular music and dancing styles these days fall into this

latter category. One practical consequence of this is that I find it much

more difficult to help people with addictive patterns who listen to " bad "

music. I won't go into what I consider " bad " here, as that will almost

certainly set off a firestorm.

 

The most common problem that I see clinically is that people may take herbs

and get better only temporarily. Often diet is a factor, but too often

people know they should eat better, but are resistant because they are

addicted or feel trapped in certain behavior patterns. Appropriate music

and exercise can help to reorganize a person's mind patterns so that they

can shift into a new state of being. When this happens, the chronic need

for a specific herbal formula may disappear, and at the same time

resistance to changing diet may also disappear.

 

Roger

 

 

 

> " " <lionel.chan

>Re: qi and self-organization - " the pattern that connects "

>

>I am a big fan of Ilya Prigogine and I think his concepts of

>open-systems have a lot to offer our understanding of Qi. It takes

>some explanation to explain where I am at, but please bear with me.

>

>Here is my angle - if we " move someone's stagnant qi " in a treatment

>of someone under stress, we know acupuncture does this very well and

>very easily. The problem is, these people keep coming back every week

>and the challenges of their live continue to bear down on them after

>they leave the clinic. We haven't changed their ability to handle

>stress, just given them temporary reprieve, so what is the point? We

>could be accused of doing what we say western med does often, that of

>masking symptoms and thereby encouraging the pattern to continue.

 

....

 

>This is why people that do Qigong, Taiji, and meditation are able to

>remain calmer in stressful situations than others. They are

>essentially training every day to make the organisation of the CNS

>more complex, and therefore more easily handle greater flows of Qi and

>to safely let it all out again. Taking in everything, and emptying

>themselves completely out into the world again, attached to nothing.

>

....

 

>

>I think that our brain/CNS and our mind is a perfect example of an

>evolving open-system. If I may take a bit of a leap here, I think

>that an evolving system could also be what " mind " actually means, on

>varying scales. So that the ant does not have ego, but maybe the

>ant's nest as an open evolving system does (at least more than the

>ant), and does " think " in a way and can communicate even with other

>ant's nests as peers. Even the society we are part of, with all it's

>complex self-regulating mechanisms, could have some sort of

>consciousness above all us individuals in it. Mind doesn't have to be

>made up of brain cells interacting. As soon as you get a system of

>sufficient complexity, at whatever scale, you get mind!

>

>

 

 

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

[Guest guest]

, " "

<lionel.chan@a...> wrote:

> I am a big fan of Ilya Prigogine and I think his concepts of

> open-systems have a lot to offer our understanding of Qi. It takes

> some explanation to explain where I am at, but please bear with me.

 

 

Facinating stuff. thanks.