Treatment based on pattern discrimination

[Guest guest]

On page 1 of issue #2, 2005 of Shan Xi Zhong Yi, Meng Qing-yun has an

article on treatment based on pattern discrimination. In this article,

he discusses the historical development of this style of CM as well as

all the components necessary to make this system work in clinical

practice. It is Meng's conclusion that the quality of treatment given

based on this system is highly dependent on the practitioner's 1)

knowledge, 2) experience, and 3) creativity as a doctor.

 

Anyone have any comments or observations?

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

I have thought that one's knowledge and experience has a direct

influence on the placebo effect too. In other words, if you're not

sure that what you're doing is going to work, that doubt doesn't help

the patient any. However, having a backlog of thirty years experience

with the necessary knowledge is going to translate into a deep

confidence that does get to the patient. If nothing else, it is very

helpful for compliance issues.

 

My question is what does it mean to be creative as a doctor in this

context?

 

-al.

 

On Jun 16, 2005, at 12:31 PM, Bob Flaws wrote:

 

> On page 1 of issue #2, 2005 of Shan Xi Zhong Yi, Meng Qing-yun has an

> article on treatment based on pattern discrimination. In this article,

> he discusses the historical development of this style of CM as well as

> all the components necessary to make this system work in clinical

> practice. It is Meng's conclusion that the quality of treatment given

> based on this system is highly dependent on the practitioner's 1)

> knowledge, 2) experience, and 3) creativity as a doctor.

>

> Anyone have any comments or observations?

>

> Bob

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

How do you see Meng's observations differing from Scheid? From what you have

here it

would seem that Meng is looking for something more simple (or for younger and

dumber

people?)

doug

 

 

, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:

> On page 1 of issue #2, 2005 of Shan Xi Zhong Yi, Meng Qing-yun has an

> article on treatment based on pattern discrimination. In this article,

> he discusses the historical development of this style of CM as well as

> all the components necessary to make this system work in clinical

> practice. It is Meng's conclusion that the quality of treatment given

> based on this system is highly dependent on the practitioner's 1)

> knowledge, 2) experience, and 3) creativity as a doctor.

>

> Anyone have any comments or observations?

>

> Bob

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that knowledge, experience and

creativity as a doctor go hand in hand. Knowledge

comes from experience and creativity comes from

confidence (which comes as a result of knowledge and

experience). I think the important thing to remember

here is that knowledge and experience come only with

practice and that treatment based on pattern

discriminitation, while it seems " easy " to us when we

first graduate from school can actually be quite

complex. Perhaps by creativity he is referring to

allowing oneself the flexibility to identify several

patterns and to create a treatment that will address

the multiple patterns presenting. Also, to have the

flexibility to be creative with a formula or point

prescription rather than strictly adhering to the

" standard " formula for a given pattern.

 

Bob, I am curious about his historical discussion.

One of the things we see a lot of historically is

criticism of " poor " practitioners, or discussion of

misdiagnosis. It may be that he is enjoining TCM docs

to move past that which is easy and straightforward -

the route of the mediocre practitioner, and a practice

that has been highly criticized historically and to be

" creative " and intelligent about practice. It is very

easy, especially in busy hospital settings such as one

has in China, to fall into habits and practices and to

stop using one's knowledge, experience and creativity

in practice. My experience of China is that there

certainly are plenty of physicians who treat in a very

protocolized manner - x pattern, y treatment. When

treating 100 patients in 3 hours this is a lot easier

than thinking about every single patient. So,

perhaps, what Meng is doing is, in a somewhat subtle

way, expressing to his colleagues the need to get out

of their rut and continue the evolution of this

medicine.

 

Marnae

 

--- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

> On page 1 of issue #2, 2005 of Shan Xi Zhong Yi,

> Meng Qing-yun has an

> article on treatment based on pattern

> discrimination. In this article,

> he discusses the historical development of this

> style of CM as well as

> all the components necessary to make this system

> work in clinical

> practice. It is Meng's conclusion that the quality

> of treatment given

> based on this system is highly dependent on the

> practitioner's 1)

> knowledge, 2) experience, and 3) creativity as a

> doctor.

>

> Anyone have any comments or observations?

>

> Bob

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional

> services, including board approved continuing

> education classes, an annual conference and a free

> discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Perhaps by creativity he is referring to allowing oneself the

flexibility to identify several patterns and to create a treatment

that will address> the multiple patterns presenting. Also, to have

the flexibility to be creative with a formula or point prescription

rather than strictly adhering to the " standard " formula for a given

pattern. "

 

Marnae, That's my reading.

 

" Bob, I am curious about his historical discussion. One of the things

we see a lot of historically is criticism of " poor " practitioners, or

discussion of misdiagnosis. It may be that he is enjoining TCM docs

to move past that which is easy and straightforward - the route of the

mediocre practitioner, and a practice that has been highly criticized

historically and to be " creative " and intelligent about practice. It

is very easy, especially in busy hospital settings such as one

has in China, to fall into habits and practices and to stop using

one's knowledge, experience and creativity in practice. My experience

of China is that there certainly are plenty of physicians who treat in

a very protocolized manner - x pattern, y treatment. When treating

100 patients in 3 hours this is a lot easier than thinking about every

single patient. So, perhaps, what Meng is doing is, in a somewhat

subtle way, expressing to his colleagues the need to get out

of their rut and continue the evolution of this medicine. "

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. This was the lead article in

this issue of this journal. So someone was trying to make a point with

this article.

 

Bob

 

 

> Marnae

>

> --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

> > On page 1 of issue #2, 2005 of Shan Xi Zhong Yi,

> > Meng Qing-yun has an

> > article on treatment based on pattern

> > discrimination. In this article,

> > he discusses the historical development of this

> > style of CM as well as

> > all the components necessary to make this system

> > work in clinical

> > practice. It is Meng's conclusion that the quality

> > of treatment given

> > based on this system is highly dependent on the

> > practitioner's 1)

> > knowledge, 2) experience, and 3) creativity as a

> > doctor.

> >

> > Anyone have any comments or observations?

> >

> > Bob

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional

> > services, including board approved continuing

> > education classes, an annual conference and a free

> > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I spent 2 weeks at Beijing City TCM in April and it was obvious all but very

senior doctors

were being paid by the patient. I was very disappointed, especially in the

dermatology

department, how many ready made patents and cremes (all hospital products) were

given

over raw herbs. I couldn't help but think that the doctors didn't want to/didn't

have the

time to write formulas.

The Oncology department was better on this count, raw herbs to everyone, but the

number of patients was still very high. Complex cases were told to check

themselves into

the inpatient ward. An American, who had been studying there for 10 years, and I

had

hired to help with translations, said that doctors were encouraged to fill the

beds on the

inpatient wards.

So there may be a political/economic dimension as well to the article.

 

But I'm still not sure of the point that Bob gets from the article. Is Meng

saying that pattern

descrimination is too complex for all but the most creative and experienced? And

that

other forms of diagnosis and treatment should replace it? That would, of course,

seem a

very, very backward step.

doug

 

, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:

> " Perhaps by creativity he is referring to allowing oneself the

> flexibility to identify several patterns and to create a treatment

> that will address> the multiple patterns presenting. Also, to have

> the flexibility to be creative with a formula or point prescription

> rather than strictly adhering to the " standard " formula for a given

> pattern. "

>

> Marnae, That's my reading.

>

> " Bob, I am curious about his historical discussion. One of the things

> we see a lot of historically is criticism of " poor " practitioners, or

> discussion of misdiagnosis. It may be that he is enjoining TCM docs

> to move past that which is easy and straightforward - the route of the

> mediocre practitioner, and a practice that has been highly criticized

> historically and to be " creative " and intelligent about practice. It

> is very easy, especially in busy hospital settings such as one

> has in China, to fall into habits and practices and to stop using

> one's knowledge, experience and creativity in practice. My experience

> of China is that there certainly are plenty of physicians who treat in

> a very protocolized manner - x pattern, y treatment. When treating

> 100 patients in 3 hours this is a lot easier than thinking about every

> single patient. So, perhaps, what Meng is doing is, in a somewhat

> subtle way, expressing to his colleagues the need to get out

> of their rut and continue the evolution of this medicine. "

>

> I think you've hit the nail on the head. This was the lead article in

> this issue of this journal. So someone was trying to make a point with

> this article.

>

> Bob

>

>

> > Marnae

> >

> > --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> >

> > > On page 1 of issue #2, 2005 of Shan Xi Zhong Yi,

> > > Meng Qing-yun has an

> > > article on treatment based on pattern

> > > discrimination. In this article,

> > > he discusses the historical development of this

> > > style of CM as well as

> > > all the components necessary to make this system

> > > work in clinical

> > > practice. It is Meng's conclusion that the quality

> > > of treatment given

> > > based on this system is highly dependent on the

> > > practitioner's 1)

> > > knowledge, 2) experience, and 3) creativity as a

> > > doctor.

> > >

> > > Anyone have any comments or observations?

> > >

> > > Bob

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional

> > > services, including board approved continuing

> > > education classes, an annual conference and a free

> > > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

" Perhaps by creativity he is referring to allowing oneself the

flexibility to identify several patterns and to create a treatment

that will address> the multiple patterns presenting. Also, to have

the flexibility to be creative with a formula or point prescription

rather than strictly adhering to the " standard " formula for a given

pattern. "

>>>>>>>Bob, i think its easier to think in terms of multipattern. Its much

harder and takes more " creativity " to look for a pivotal pattern.

 

 

 

 

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