Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Infrared thermography fails to visualize stimulation-induced meridian-like structures. Biomed Eng Online 2005 Jun 15;4(1):38. BACKGROUND: According to Traditional (TCM) the vital energy flows through a system of channels also called meridians. Generally accepted proof for meridians cannot be considered as being given. Goal of this study was to examine whether possible stimulation-induced meridian-like structures, as recently described by other authors, can be visualized and objectified simultaneously at different infrared wavelength ranges. METHODS: The study analyses evidence for the existence of acupuncture-specific, meridian-like artifacts in 6 healthy volunteers (mean age +/- SD 28.7 +/- 3.7 years; range 25 - 35 years). Two infrared cameras at different wavelength ranges were used for thermographic control of possible stimulation effects (moxibustion-cigar, infrared warmth stimulation, needle and laserneedle stimulation). In addition to thermography, temperature and microcirculatory parameters were registered at a selected point using laser-Doppler flowmetry. RESULTS AND CONCLUSION: After moxibustion (or infrared light stimulation) of the body at 2 - 5 um and 7.5 - 13 um ranges, different structures appear on thermographic images of the human body which are technical artifacts and which are not identical to what are known as meridians in all textbooks of TCM. Further scientific studies are required regarding the possible visualization of meridians. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Alon, Interesting but the title and conclusions seem to be in conflict. Who is to say that these so called ³technical artifacts² are not in some way related to the channels. I see this study as a possibility for possible proof of channels as they found something but also caution that their conclusion of ³what are known as meridians² seems a bit presumptuous. Wouldn¹t you say? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 6/18/05 11:19 AM, " " <alonmarcus wrote: > Infrared thermography fails to visualize stimulation-induced meridian-like > structures. Biomed Eng Online 2005 Jun 15;4(1):38. BACKGROUND: According to > Traditional (TCM) the vital energy flows through a system of > channels also called meridians. Generally accepted proof for meridians cannot > be considered as being given. Goal of this study was to examine whether > possible stimulation-induced meridian-like structures, as recently described > by other authors, can be visualized and objectified simultaneously at > different infrared wavelength ranges. METHODS: The study analyses evidence for > the existence of acupuncture-specific, meridian-like artifacts in 6 healthy > volunteers (mean age +/- SD 28.7 +/- 3.7 years; range 25 - 35 years). Two > infrared cameras at different wavelength ranges were used for thermographic > control of possible stimulation effects (moxibustion-cigar, infrared warmth > stimulation, needle and laserneedle stimulation). In addition to thermography, > temperature and microcirculatory parameters were registered at a selected > point using laser-Doppler flowmetry. RESULTS AND CONCLUSION: After moxibustion > (or infrared light stimulation) of the body at 2 - 5 um and 7.5 - 13 um > ranges, different structures appear on thermographic images of the human body > which are technical artifacts and which are not identical to what are known as > meridians in all textbooks of TCM. Further scientific studies are required > regarding the possible visualization of meridians. > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 what are known as meridians² seems a bit presumptuous. Wouldn¹t you say? >>>>All the studies only look at the main channels (meridians) and show no real understanding of jingluo. Remember, if we are to include all the possibilities one cannot find any image that does not fall within jingluo. At the same time from all i have read i do not believe we have any evidence for the main channels as being a distinct structure of any kind. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I guess Western Science has a ways to go to figure how to measure the channels, wouldn't you say? :-) At the same time from all i have read i do not believe we have any evidence for the main channels as being a distinct structure of any kind. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I guess Western Science has a ways to go to figure how to measure the channels, wouldn't you say? >>>>I like to think of the channels as a systemless system kind a like the immune system. Its not a structural unit but a collection of functions.I have a hard time believing its an invisible structural system. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I like to think its there but " invisible " only in the sense that can't be detected by current tools. doug , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I guess Western Science has a ways to go to figure how to measure the channels, wouldn't > you say? > >>>>I like to think of the channels as a systemless system kind a like the immune system. Its not a structural unit but a collection of functions.I have a hard time believing its an invisible structural system. > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I like to think its there but " invisible " only in the sense that can't be detected by current tools. >>>That is a little to much faith for me at this point. But i can change my mind in a second when evidence is put forth.At the same time, i see no problem with thinking the channels are a functional system Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I would have to agree with Alon. I think looking for 'structures' for the channels is a futile venture. The channels are at root a functional system. On Jun 19, 2005, at 1:16 PM, wrote: > I guess Western Science has a ways to go to figure how to measure > the channels, wouldn't > you say? > >>>>> I like to think of the channels as a systemless system kind a >>>>> like the immune system. Its not a structural unit but a >>>>> collection of functions.I have a hard time believing its an >>>>> invisible structural system. >>>>> > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless. The world economy would not have fed me last night but for the 405 Highway coming up to LA from Mexico. There may not be a direct line from the headache, cured yesterday, to GB 41 and it may have passed through some divergents, luo's whatever but the pathway was definetly there. doug , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I would have to agree with Alon. I think looking for 'structures' > for the channels is a futile venture. The channels are at root a > functional system. > > > On Jun 19, 2005, at 1:16 PM, wrote: > > > I guess Western Science has a ways to go to figure how to measure > > the channels, wouldn't > > you say? > > > >>>>> I like to think of the channels as a systemless system kind a > >>>>> like the immune system. Its not a structural unit but a > >>>>> collection of functions.I have a hard time believing its an > >>>>> invisible structural system. > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless >>>>What is the structure of the immune system? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 The pathways and collaterals of the San Jiao! doug , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless > >>>>What is the structure of the immune system? > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 How about the lymphatic and circulatory systems? > , " " > <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: >> Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless >> >>>>What is the structure of the immune system? >> >> >> >> >> Oakland, CA 94609 >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 The pathways and collaterals of the San Jiao! >>>>>>>Doug, just to make it clear you know i was referring to biomedical structure Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 The lymphatic system as well as the white blood cells. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " > > >Re: RE:therm >Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:50:11 -0000 > >The pathways and collaterals of the San Jiao! >doug > > , " " ><alonmarcus@w...> >wrote: > > Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless > > >>>>What is the structure of the immune system? > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Function yes but what about possible structure for that function. What criteria do you feel that a physical structure would need to fulfill? I think that is a more useful line of dialogue. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: RE:therm >Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:50:06 -0700 > >I would have to agree with Alon. I think looking for 'structures' >for the channels is a futile venture. The channels are at root a >functional system. > > >On Jun 19, 2005, at 1:16 PM, wrote: > > > I guess Western Science has a ways to go to figure how to measure > > the channels, wouldn't > > you say? > > > >>>>> I like to think of the channels as a systemless system kind a > >>>>> like the immune system. Its not a structural unit but a > >>>>> collection of functions.I have a hard time believing its an > >>>>> invisible structural system. > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Alon, Depending upon your criteria for meridians, which I would ask you for, I think that there are studies that have shown a lot of promise. Read some of the work being published by Dr. Soh et al. In the states, we should become more aware of studies our brethren abroad are performing. If we fail to keep in touch and understand their significance, then we become isolationists and may be perceived as not-in-touch-with-reality. This is a position that we can ill afford to be in. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: RE:therm >Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:12:32 -0700 > >what are known as meridians² seems a bit presumptuous. Wouldn¹t you say? > >>>>All the studies only look at the main channels (meridians) and show no >real understanding of jingluo. Remember, if we are to include all the >possibilities one cannot find any image that does not fall within jingluo. >At the same time from all i have read i do not believe we have any evidence >for the main channels as being a distinct structure of any kind. > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I imagine if I say the cell walls or bone marrow stem cells or the thymus you aren't going to agree. So what's the point? doug , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > The pathways and collaterals of the San Jiao! > >>>>>>>Doug, just to make it clear you know i was referring to biomedical structure > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 This is a good question, and it is addressed by a number of scientists such as the late Francisco Varela, a theoretical biologist. In his research at the Santa Fe Institute, he developed the conceptual structure of 'immune networks', which rather than having a central physiological component, is based on an 'immune identity' wherein the body recognizes 'invaders', or distinguishes 'self' from 'non-self''. This reminds me of what the Nan Jing in difficulty 38, where it describes the san jiao as follows: " the san jiao represents an additional source of original qi. It governs all the qi circulating in the body. It has a name but no form " . Form without a particular center or structure. Clearly the Nan Jing is describing a functional system, similar to what Dr. Varela is describing in his 'immune networks' concept. In my mind, the channel system is similar to this, not tied rigidly to any specific physiological structure, but 'crossing over' various systems in the body, tying them together and then diverging. On Jun 19, 2005, at 2:45 PM, wrote: > Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless > >>>>> What is the structure of the immune system? >>>>> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 There is a tendency on this forum as well as in all professions to mix or intermingle language and the same thing influenced the ancient civilizations as well. I think that some may not be happy until they find an exact phrase or word with the same identical usage as theirs. This mentality only seeks to limit our thinking by practicing reductionism. We really need to re-evaluate our tendencies and our biases. Open minded we are not. I want to mention, lastly, that I enjoy finding research and info that shows various functional or structural info about CM. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " > > >Re: RE:therm >Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:48:00 -0000 > >I imagine if I say the cell walls or bone marrow stem cells or the thymus >you aren't going to >agree. So what's the point? >doug > > , " " ><alonmarcus@w...> >wrote: > > The pathways and collaterals of the San Jiao! > > >>>>>>>Doug, just to make it clear you know i was referring to >biomedical structure > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Zev, I would like to know what you think about Dr. Soh's and Bonghan's work as I think it ties in nicely with what you state below. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: RE:therm >Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:56:44 -0700 > >This is a good question, and it is addressed by a number of >scientists such as the late Francisco Varela, a theoretical >biologist. In his research at the Santa Fe Institute, he developed >the conceptual structure of 'immune networks', which rather than >having a central physiological component, is based on an 'immune >identity' wherein the body recognizes 'invaders', or distinguishes >'self' from 'non-self''. This reminds me of what the Nan Jing in >difficulty 38, where it describes the san jiao as follows: " the san >jiao represents an additional source of original qi. It governs all >the qi circulating in the body. It has a name but no form " . > >Form without a particular center or structure. Clearly the Nan Jing >is describing a functional system, similar to what Dr. Varela is >describing in his 'immune networks' concept. > >In my mind, the channel system is similar to this, not tied rigidly >to any specific physiological structure, but 'crossing over' various >systems in the body, tying them together and then diverging. > > >On Jun 19, 2005, at 2:45 PM, wrote: > > > Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless > > > >>>>> What is the structure of the immune system? > >>>>> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I imagine if I say the cell walls or bone marrow stem cells or the thymus you aren't going to agree. >>>>Well, its all of them and much more. That is my point. It has no simple form. Its parts of blood cells, walls, the nervous system, the bone marrow, the spleen, the liver, the thymus, the adrenals, and more Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 You're undoubtably aware of what Bob Damone's article says about the various debates about this thorugh the milleniae. http://www.pacificcollege.edu/alumni/newsletters/winter2004/triple_burner.html But whatever writers have said about the San Jiao, it's a far stretch from essentially making this same point to the channels themselves. doug " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I would have to agree with Alon. I think looking for 'structures' > for the channels is a futile venture. The channels are at root a > functional system. , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > This is a good question, and it is addressed by a number of > scientists such as the late Francisco Varela, a theoretical > biologist. In his research at the Santa Fe Institute, he developed > the conceptual structure of 'immune networks', which rather than > having a central physiological component, is based on an 'immune > identity' wherein the body recognizes 'invaders', or distinguishes > 'self' from 'non-self''. This reminds me of what the Nan Jing in > difficulty 38, where it describes the san jiao as follows: " the san > jiao represents an additional source of original qi. It governs all > the qi circulating in the body. It has a name but no form " . > > Form without a particular center or structure. Clearly the Nan Jing > is describing a functional system, similar to what Dr. Varela is > describing in his 'immune networks' concept. > > In my mind, the channel system is similar to this, not tied rigidly > to any specific physiological structure, but 'crossing over' various > systems in the body, tying them together and then diverging. > > > On Jun 19, 2005, at 2:45 PM, wrote: > > > Every system has to have a structure... otherwise it's meaninless > > > >>>>> What is the structure of the immune system? > >>>>> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I understand what you are saying but from what I have experienced there is something that follows those lines on the page. Whether they are like tunnels or rivers or highways the cumulative effect of all these " systemless structures " and " structureless structures " is that they have function. I think we both agree to that. Until then, my contention is that they can be seen or " imaged " as distinct paths, even if these are imperfect. Without this conception then acupuncture wouldn't work, which I've seen, does. Perhaps the channels won't be clear tubes of Qi or whatever but I see that there is an order which we call structure and I can bet that if we were to find this structure they will remarkably like those lines on the page. doug At the same time from all i have read i do not believe we have any evidence for the main channels as being a distinct structure of any kind. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I imagine if I say the cell walls or bone marrow stem cells or the thymus you aren't going to > agree. > >>>>Well, its all of them and much more. That is my point. It has no simple form. Its parts of blood cells, walls, the nervous system, the bone marrow, the spleen, the liver, the thymus, the adrenals, and more > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Yes, I am aware of the article, and of the multiple perspectives on the san jiao in the traditional literature. Clearly, however, in terms of zang-fu, the triple burner is in a class by itself in terms of broad interpretation. Perhaps we should annotate the Nan Jing and state " the san jiao has no clear identification with one specific form (zang-fu). On Jun 19, 2005, at 5:29 PM, wrote: > You're undoubtably aware of what Bob Damone's article says about > the various debates > about this thorugh the milleniae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 The difference between the concepts I've mentioned and Soh-Bonghan's work is that that they seem to be looking for definitive structures that correlate physiologically to the concept of channels. On Jun 19, 2005, at 5:01 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > Zev, > I would like to know what you think about Dr. Soh's and Bonghan's > work as I > think it ties in nicely with what you state below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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