Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 First I want to encourage all to probably the best western journal I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern. http://www.thelantern.com.au/ In the latest issue there is a great article, from an excerpt from one of liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding the study of Chinese Medicine " As you all may or may not know, he was one of the foremost experts in the SHL in the 20th century. The article has some great thoughts on the importance of memorization, the study of classics, as well as the balance between being a scholar and clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating clinical utility as well as masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm scholar who may read voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it won't make him any better.' I personally find there is important balance in being in the trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free-time). One IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics, modern CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well thought out excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and became a TRUE master physician. The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to support endeavors like the Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member), so we can all continue to have access to good material and discussions. - > > > On Behalf Of > Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM > > RE: what is MSU > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of > > figure / like a high government official... Maybe all these stories are > > made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to bring much to the table > when > > you read their books, and I don't think this is the exception in CM. I > > have > > a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors and it is quite > interesting. > > Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc.. all > > saw > > many patients. Have you heard different? > > Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few words. It should read: > > " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc. I > thought all saw many patients. Have you heard different? " > > Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but pretty sure about > ZhuDanXi > (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...? > > - > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I love this journal, it's the best hard-copy CM journal out there. I've contributed articles to The Lantern for publication soon. Every issue has at least a few great articles, the Liu Du-zhou article is one of the best I've read in the last few years. Lots of great Shang Han Lun-oriented stuff. On Jul 18, 2005, at 7:08 PM, wrote: > First I want to encourage all to probably the best > western journal > I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern. > > http://www.thelantern.com.au/ > > In the latest issue there is a great article, from an excerpt from > one of > liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding the study of Chinese > Medicine " > As you all may or may not know, he was one of the foremost experts > in the > SHL in the 20th century. > The article has some great thoughts on the importance of > memorization, the > study of classics, as well as the balance between being a scholar and > clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating clinical utility as > well as > masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm scholar who may read > voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it won't make him any > better.' I personally find there is important balance in being in the > trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free- > time). One > IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics, > modern > CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well > thought out > excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and > became a > TRUE master physician. > > The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to support endeavors > like the > Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member), so we can all > continue to > have access to good material and discussions. > > - > > > > >> >> >> On Behalf Of Jason >> >> Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM >> >> RE: what is MSU >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> On Behalf Of Jason >>> >>> figure / like a high government official... Maybe all these >>> stories are >>> made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to bring much to the table >>> >> when >> >>> you read their books, and I don't think this is the exception in >>> CM. I >>> have >>> a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors and it is quite >>> >> interesting. >> >>> Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi >>> etc.. all >>> saw >>> many patients. Have you heard different? >>> >> >> Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few words. It should >> read: >> >> " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi >> etc. I >> thought all saw many patients. Have you heard different? " >> >> Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but pretty sure about >> ZhuDanXi >> (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...? >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >> including >> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference >> and a >> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: I personally find there is important balance in being in the > trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free-time). One > IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics, modern > CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well thought out > excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and became a > TRUE master physician. I agree in principle. but how do you know that you are reading the words of someone who has extensive clinical experience and book knowledge and is not just a bookworm who claims that experience to further themselves. I do not assume these men were all well intentioned. They were fighting over turf. If you spend endless hours ruminating over the words of someone whose insights come largely from a lifetime of treating their sickly mother in law, that is a waste of time, IMO. So, while accepting a wide range of styles might be viable, how do we determine whether the author is really worht listening to in the first place? I don't think just becuase a book called a classic bestows that honor. There are many reasons other than truth why certain books filled with utter garbage play powerful role sin certain cultures. Don't think that tthe chinese are immune from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think, you underestimate the ability of people in our group to be able to tell truth from fabrication. For myself, there is a place for scholars in our field who are not necessarily full-time clinicians, just as in Western medicine there are researchers who are not clinicians. While Chinese medicine turns largely on the fulcrum of balance between the clinic and scholarly study, there have always been those who lean more to the clinic, and those more to study. We need them both. On Jul 18, 2005, at 9:15 PM, wrote: > I agree in principle. but how do you know that you are reading the > words of someone who > has extensive clinical experience and book knowledge and is not > just a bookworm who > claims that experience to further themselves. I do not assume > these men were all well > intentioned. They were fighting over turf. If you spend endless > hours ruminating over the > words of someone whose insights come largely from a lifetime of > treating their sickly mother > in law, that is a waste of time, IMO. So, while accepting a wide > range of styles might be > viable, how do we determine whether the author is really worht > listening to in the first place? > I don't think just becuase a book called a classic bestows that > honor. There are many > reasons other than truth why certain books filled with utter > garbage play powerful role sin > certain cultures. Don't think that tthe chinese are immune from this. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think the Zhu scalp acupuncture system is an interesting modern coralative to some of these ideas. Although he makes the requisite assertions about the classics it is basically a new system put through clinical testing. I have heard that he has a great reputation in the SF Bay Area yet on-line forums from patients don't seem so positive. douog , " " wrote: > , " " <@c...> wrote: > I personally find there is important balance in being in the > > trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free-time). One > > IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics, modern > > CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well thought out > > excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and became a > > TRUE master physician. > > I agree in principle. but how do you know that you are reading the words of someone who > has extensive clinical experience and book knowledge and is not just a bookworm who > claims that experience to further themselves. I do not assume these men were all well > intentioned. They were fighting over turf. If you spend endless hours ruminating over the > words of someone whose insights come largely from a lifetime of treating their sickly mother > in law, that is a waste of time, IMO. So, while accepting a wide range of styles might be > viable, how do we determine whether the author is really worht listening to in the first place? > I don't think just becuase a book called a classic bestows that honor. There are many > reasons other than truth why certain books filled with utter garbage play powerful role sin > certain cultures. Don't think that tthe chinese are immune from this. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Sorry, I keep mispelling the Lantern here.... doug , " " wrote: > Congrats to CHA contributors for their articles in the September 2005 Latern, Z'ev Rosenberg > (Treating damp-warmth with San Ren Tang) and (Huang Qi throught the eyes on > Zhang Zhong-Jing). > The Latern is edited by Steven Clavey and is available for subscription at > www.thelantern.com.au > > > doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > 1) It was said that huangqi, fangji, and gan cao zou biao - I chose > Clavey's 'travel the exterior' one could also pick from Bensky's 'Mobilize > the exterior' I asked Nigel and Feng Ye for their opinion on this. They side more with Clavey's phrase. Feng Ye says that it is speaking about the effect of taking a medicine and the medicine going to the exterior. Mobilizing the exterior sounds a bit closer to " rousing the exterior to move itself " vs. simply the drug itself moving to the exterior, at least in my mind. Feng Ye puts the emphasis on the fact that people are observing the effect of the drug, and the drugs effects are manifest in the exterior, so it is described as going there (it is zou-ing to the biao, to put it in Chinglish). Nigel and Feng Ye agree that it is not necessarily technical but could be used as such, and Nigel is going to add it to his term list. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of Eric Brand > Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:04 PM > > Re: the lantern > > , " " > <@c...> wrote: > > 1) It was said that huangqi, fangji, and gan cao zou biao - I chose > > Clavey's 'travel the exterior' one could also pick from Bensky's > 'Mobilize > > the exterior' > > I asked Nigel and Feng Ye for their opinion on this. They side more > with Clavey's phrase. Feng Ye says that it is speaking about the > effect of taking a medicine and the medicine going to the exterior. > Mobilizing the exterior sounds a bit closer to " rousing the exterior > to move itself " vs. simply the drug itself moving to the exterior, at > least in my mind. Feng Ye puts the emphasis on the fact that people > are observing the effect of the drug, and the drugs effects are > manifest in the exterior, so it is described as going there (it is > zou-ing to the biao, to put it in Chinglish). Nigel and Feng Ye > agree that it is not necessarily technical but could be used as such, > and Nigel is going to add it to his term list. Well I am glad I went with 'Travel'... Lucky me... - How is Nigel going to translate it? Also I assume when Nigel translated zou3 as penetrate that was a technical usage, no? It is not a spoken usage at least to my knowledge? Or at least not in my dictionary. - > > Eric > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > Well I am glad I went with 'Travel'... Lucky me... - How is Nigel going > to translate it? I'm not sure exactly how he'll translate it in the end. Also I assume when Nigel translated zou3 as penetrate that > was a technical usage, no? It is not a spoken usage at least to my > knowledge? Or at least not in my dictionary. Yes, technical use. Sometimes it overlaps with mobile. Generally in the simple sense we see it for drugs like chuan xiong, she xiang, chuan shan jia, etc. Zou3 in the spoken language has more emphasis on moving in general. Apparently it is mostly in the Mandarin dialect that zou is used for walking and such, I'm told that they use the same character more for fast movement in cantonese and use xing to denote slower walking, for example. But I am no expert on such matters. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Eric, On Zou in different dialects: Mandarin: to walk; pronounced as Zou3 [ Pao3: to run ] Cantonese: 1) to run, 2) to depart/leave; pronounced as Zao2 Taiwanese: 1)to run;, 2) to depart/leave; pronounced as Zao4 On Xing, when relevant to movement: (there are other meanings) Mandarin: to walk; moving; pronounced as Xing2; e.g, xing ren (pedestrian) Cantonese: to walk; pronnounced as Hang3 Taiwanese: to walk; pronnounced as Hing2 I thought this may be amusing to some... Mike L. Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: , " " <@c...> wrote: > Well I am glad I went with 'Travel'... Lucky me... - How is Nigel going > to translate it? I'm not sure exactly how he'll translate it in the end. Also I assume when Nigel translated zou3 as penetrate that > was a technical usage, no? It is not a spoken usage at least to my > knowledge? Or at least not in my dictionary. Yes, technical use. Sometimes it overlaps with mobile. Generally in the simple sense we see it for drugs like chuan xiong, she xiang, chuan shan jia, etc. Zou3 in the spoken language has more emphasis on moving in general. Apparently it is mostly in the Mandarin dialect that zou is used for walking and such, I'm told that they use the same character more for fast movement in cantonese and use xing to denote slower walking, for example. But I am no expert on such matters. Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw> wrote: > Eric, > > On Zou in different dialects: > > Mandarin: to walk; pronounced as Zou3 [ Pao3: to run ] > Cantonese: 1) to run, 2) to depart/leave; pronounced as Zao2 > Taiwanese: 1)to run;, 2) to depart/leave; pronounced as Zao4 > > On Xing, when relevant to movement: (there are other meanings) > > Mandarin: to walk; moving; pronounced as Xing2; e.g, xing ren (pedestrian) > Cantonese: to walk; pronnounced as Hang3 > Taiwanese: to walk; pronnounced as Hing2 > > I thought this may be amusing to some... Thanks for the feedback. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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