why not

July 19, 2005

Why couldn't CHA or another company be accredited to grant a master's

degree in CM, offer the entire didactic curriculum online and

contract with local acupuncture colleges all over the world for

students to carry out their hands-on training and clinical

internship. The schools would make money on students who would

otherwise not attend at all and not have to devote any of their own

resources to developing this program. If it worked for them, they

could always move it inhouse later. But hopefully there would still

be students who preferred to study with CHA and thus it would still

be in the schools best interests to contract out as well. I know

there are past and present ACAOM site reviewers on this list. Why

not cut an edge and propose an initiative that could really

revolutionize herbal education. I would be willing to wager that a

CHA online program with the right course designers, folks like Z'ev

and Bob Damone and Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky and Steve Clavey,

could produce better herbalists on average than most brick and mortar

acu schools in the US, just because the intensive reading and writing

of online classes cultivates the exact skills an herbalist needs.

I'll go one further. We could easily teach them to read medical

chinese in this format,as well. Any takers. :-) ACAOM will still

have to approve me first. Should I submit a proposal? Does anyone

know how this works?

Chinese Herbs

July 19, 2005

The one piece that is missing is that there would be no clinical

supervision. This is a very important piece. Being in the trenches, so to

speak, is critical. Evaluating reaction, reassessing, rewriting the

formulas, etc.

also- I used to teach on my own. ACAOM put an end to that by ruling that

all programs that qualify you to sit for the boards be taught at an

accredited school. Period.

Cara

> Why couldn't CHA or another company be accredited to grant a master's

> degree in CM, offer the entire didactic curriculum online and

> contract with local acupuncture colleges all over the world for

> students to carry out their hands-on training and clinical

> internship. The schools would make money on students who would

> otherwise not attend at all and not have to devote any of their own

> resources to developing this program. If it worked for them, they

> could always move it inhouse later. But hopefully there would still

> be students who preferred to study with CHA and thus it would still

> be in the schools best interests to contract out as well. I know

> there are past and present ACAOM site reviewers on this list. Why

> not cut an edge and propose an initiative that could really

> revolutionize herbal education. I would be willing to wager that a

> CHA online program with the right course designers, folks like Z'ev

> and Bob Damone and Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky and Steve Clavey,

> could produce better herbalists on average than most brick and mortar

> acu schools in the US, just because the intensive reading and writing

> of online classes cultivates the exact skills an herbalist needs.

> I'll go one further. We could easily teach them to read medical

> chinese in this format,as well. Any takers. :-) ACAOM will still

> have to approve me first. Should I submit a proposal? Does anyone

> know how this works?

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

July 19, 2005

Yes, the clinical, in the trenches training is essential. Perhaps,

however, it could be combined with on-line courses in a fruitful

'meeting of the ways'.

It is too bad that apprenticeships and solo training have been put to

rest by ACAOM. Some of the best practitioners I've met have been

trained in intensive apprenticeships, such as former students of

Michael Broffman who practice in Northern California.

On Jul 19, 2005, at 7:56 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

> The one piece that is missing is that there would be no clinical

> supervision. This is a very important piece. Being in the trenches,

> so to

> speak, is critical. Evaluating reaction, reassessing, rewriting the

> formulas, etc.

>

> also- I used to teach on my own. ACAOM put an end to that by

> ruling that

> all programs that qualify you to sit for the boards be taught at an

> accredited school. Period.

> Cara

>

>> Why couldn't CHA or another company be accredited to grant a master's

>> degree in CM, offer the entire didactic curriculum online and

>> contract with local acupuncture colleges all over the world for

>> students to carry out their hands-on training and clinical

>> internship. The schools would make money on students who would

>> otherwise not attend at all and not have to devote any of their own

>> resources to developing this program. If it worked for them, they

>> could always move it inhouse later. But hopefully there would still

>> be students who preferred to study with CHA and thus it would still

>> be in the schools best interests to contract out as well. I know

>> there are past and present ACAOM site reviewers on this list. Why

>> not cut an edge and propose an initiative that could really

>> revolutionize herbal education. I would be willing to wager that a

>> CHA online program with the right course designers, folks like Z'ev

>> and Bob Damone and Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky and Steve Clavey,

>> could produce better herbalists on average than most brick and mortar

>> acu schools in the US, just because the intensive reading and writing

>> of online classes cultivates the exact skills an herbalist needs.

>> I'll go one further. We could easily teach them to read medical

>> chinese in this format,as well. Any takers. :-) ACAOM will still

>> have to approve me first. Should I submit a proposal? Does anyone

>> know how this works?

>>

>> Chinese Herbs

>>

July 19, 2005

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Yes, the clinical, in the trenches training is essential. Perhaps,

> however, it could be combined with on-line courses in a fruitful

> 'meeting of the ways'.

>

> It is too bad that apprenticeships and solo training have been put to

> rest by ACAOM. Some of the best practitioners I've met have been

> trained in intensive apprenticeships, such as former students of

> Michael Broffman who practice in Northern California.

It would be great to integrate a standard online curriculum with local

apprenticeships. I am not sure ACAOM has anything to do with that,

though. I think NCCAOM probably doesn't let apprentices sit for the

exams and then each state would have the last say. for example,

Oregon requires a NCCAOM cert. and a master's degree in OM. But there

is no reason a state couldnot make its own path to apprentice based

licensure. That is a states right issue, I believe.

July 19, 2005

I agree. I was fortunate to apprentice w/ Ted Kaptchuk and Dr. So. But when

I was in school, we didn¹t have student clinics ( or hardly any books, or

disposable needles!). As much as I miss those days, I am really impressed

with the student clinics. And all wealth of material available. It¹s a

totally different world.

Cara

> Yes, the clinical, in the trenches training is essential. Perhaps,

> however, it could be combined with on-line courses in a fruitful

> 'meeting of the ways'.

>

> It is too bad that apprenticeships and solo training have been put to

> rest by ACAOM. Some of the best practitioners I've met have been

> trained in intensive apprenticeships, such as former students of

> Michael Broffman who practice in Northern California.

>

> On Jul 19, 2005, at 7:56 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

>

>> > The one piece that is missing is that there would be no clinical

>> > supervision. This is a very important piece. Being in the trenches,

>> > so to

>> > speak, is critical. Evaluating reaction, reassessing, rewriting the

>> > formulas, etc.

>> >

>> > also- I used to teach on my own. ACAOM put an end to that by

>> > ruling that

>> > all programs that qualify you to sit for the boards be taught at an

>> > accredited school. Period.

>> > Cara

>> >

>>> >> Why couldn't CHA or another company be accredited to grant a master's

>>> >> degree in CM, offer the entire didactic curriculum online and

>>> >> contract with local acupuncture colleges all over the world for

>>> >> students to carry out their hands-on training and clinical

>>> >> internship. The schools would make money on students who would

>>> >> otherwise not attend at all and not have to devote any of their own

>>> >> resources to developing this program. If it worked for them, they

>>> >> could always move it inhouse later. But hopefully there would still

>>> >> be students who preferred to study with CHA and thus it would still

>>> >> be in the schools best interests to contract out as well. I know

>>> >> there are past and present ACAOM site reviewers on this list. Why

>>> >> not cut an edge and propose an initiative that could really

>>> >> revolutionize herbal education. I would be willing to wager that a

>>> >> CHA online program with the right course designers, folks like Z'ev

>>> >> and Bob Damone and Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky and Steve Clavey,

>>> >> could produce better herbalists on average than most brick and mortar

>>> >> acu schools in the US, just because the intensive reading and writing

>>> >> of online classes cultivates the exact skills an herbalist needs.

>>> >> I'll go one further. We could easily teach them to read medical

>>> >> chinese in this format,as well. Any takers. :-) ACAOM will still

>>> >> have to approve me first. Should I submit a proposal? Does anyone

>>> >> know how this works?

>>> >>

>>> >> Chinese Herbs

>>> >>

July 19, 2005

, Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...>

wrote:

> That is correct: but itï¿½s both nccaom and ACAOM. ACAOM says: the

class MUST

> be held on the school premises. This means, that even though one of my

> students lives near me in Philly, she canï¿½t apprentice with me and have

> those hours count as part of her clinical training.

> Cara

Cara

It is nothing short of insane. We are allowing ourselves to be

treated like children by our own regulators when our brethren in all

other fields at every level of education (including elementary

school!!!) have access to a much wider range of choices that work

better in many cases. Completely old style apprenticeship probably

won't fly with regulators anymore, but a distance learning program

like I describe could create the opportunity to creat create more

local formalized small accredited clinics to carry out clinical and

hands-on training. People like you in PA and Sharon Weizenbaum in MA.

Come on. Who's with me this time? This might be a way to take the

profession back from the mucky-mucks. If they won't yield, perhaps

its time to talk to a lawyer or congress. Accreditors need to keep up

with science and expert opinion on education. They can't just dicate

their own terms and squeeze out innovation if no social good is served

by their rules. Accreditors serve at the behest of the United States

government under the auspices of the department of education. They

can be stripped of their status if they break their covenants. We

should be the most progressive of fields, not the least. I am

personally sick and tired of the government and their agencies ruling

us. The government and their agencies work for us. And until we

figure that out, we all be chattel forever.

July 19, 2005

, Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...>

wrote:

> The one piece that is missing is that there would be no clinical

> supervision. This is a very important piece. Being in the trenches,

so to

> speak, is critical. Evaluating reaction, reassessing, rewriting the

> formulas, etc.

Cara

You must have missed this line below even though you included it in

your post.

I wrote:

> > contract with local acupuncture colleges all over the world for

> > students to carry out their hands-on training and clinical

> > internship.

Of course, I have considered the matter of internship. You can't get

accredited without it and my stance has always been problem based and

pragmatic, how could I think otherwise? I am talking about an

accredited masters degree, BTW.

July 19, 2005

, Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...>

wrote:

> Sigh.

> I agree with you. but I think that it will be perceived as a step

> backwards by legislators.

> C

>

Cara

I don't think you could be more wrong on this matter. Legislators at

every level are looking for proven ways to cut costs and improve

outcomes. They are with us if our ideas are sound and we put proper

safeguards in place. It is our own vested interests that are not.

I am devoting most of my time to studying Instructional Design and

Technology these days. I have retired from clinical practice and will

not be returning. I will be devoting myself to education and writing

from here on in. There is a great demand to develop these type of

programs in pretty much all fields but our own these days. We are a

bunch of luddites as a rule. I would prefer to remain in TCM, but I

will move on where I can be most useful in this domain. My interest

would thus not be in teaching the materials myself, but desiging and

administrating the whole thing. ACAOM is not the same as Legislators.

ACAOM behaves like dinosaurs with their requirements for things like

face time. Legislators are another animal altogether. One of my

classmates is a schoolteacher in Kansas. She teaches at a 100%

cyberschool (kids do meet for recess and other group activities,but

all the didactics are online). Kansas, they are always on the cutting

edge. What a disgrace we are when Kansas leads the way. I think you

may be confusing a nostalgic past style of apprenticeship with what I

am actually describing here.

July 19, 2005

The idea is good. But the people who will be most attracted to online work:

those who don¹t live near a school, are the same people who will have a hard

time getting to a school. I got a call from a guy in upstate NY, who was

willing to fly in for the class. Air and hotel and car would run him about

$500 per weekend ( times 22 weekends) on top of the $10k the school charges

for my class. The deal breaker was that the clinic meets every other week.

And there was no way around this rule. I felt really bad that I could not

create a way for him to join.

Cara

> , Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...>

> wrote:

>> > The one piece that is missing is that there would be no clinical

>> > supervision. This is a very important piece. Being in the trenches,

> so to

>> > speak, is critical. Evaluating reaction, reassessing, rewriting the

>> > formulas, etc.

> Cara

>

> You must have missed this line below even though you included it in

> your post.

>

> I wrote:

>>> > > contract with local acupuncture colleges all over the world for

>>> > > students to carry out their hands-on training and clinical

>>> > > internship.

>

> Of course, I have considered the matter of internship. You can't get

> accredited without it and my stance has always been problem based and

> pragmatic, how could I think otherwise? I am talking about an

> accredited masters degree, BTW.

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

> approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

> discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

July 19, 2005

We are allowing ourselves to be

treated like children

>>>>Including the proposal to not allow more than 8 CEUs per day

Oakland, CA 94609

July 19, 2005

I think what we are talking about is the soul of the medicine. While

the efficiency of the modern student clinics is admirable, they often

feel as soulless as any medical office. I also like the increased

availability of resources, but I don't like the loss of innovation

and discovery that has developed.

On Jul 19, 2005, at 8:14 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

> I agree. I was fortunate to apprentice w/ Ted Kaptchuk and Dr. So.

> But when

> I was in school, we didn’t have student clinics ( or hardly any

> books, or

> disposable needles!). As much as I miss those days, I am really

> impressed

> with the student clinics. And all wealth of material available. It’s a

> totally different world.

> Cara

>

July 19, 2005

Well- I guess that is one perk of running a clinic at a 5-elem school. An

enormous amount of time and attention goes towards tending the spirit. :-)

Cara

> I think what we are talking about is the soul of the medicine. While

> the efficiency of the modern student clinics is admirable, they often

> feel as soulless as any medical office. I also like the increased

> availability of resources, but I don't like the loss of innovation

> and discovery that has developed.

>

> On Jul 19, 2005, at 8:14 AM, Cara Frank wrote:

>

>> I agree. I was fortunate to apprentice w/ Ted Kaptchuk and Dr. So.

>> But when

>> I was in school, we didnâ€št have student clinics ( or hardly any

>> books, or

>> disposable needles!). As much as I miss those days, I am really

>> impressed

>> with the student clinics. And all wealth of material available. Itâ€šs a

>> totally different world.

>> Cara

>>

>

July 19, 2005

, " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...>

wrote:

>

> Have you thought about opening a school? I agree with you and could see

> this happening. It would be a great boost to the profession to show another

> way of doing things.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

If I can persuade or force the issue of allowing the didactic portionof the

curriculum to go

online, I would be willing to spearhead this via CHA. I have many emails coming

in privately

expressing strong support. Maybe this is a grassroots kickoff. The best thing

is that it

would allow for different experiments in styles and one online college could

offer multiple

options - everyone would get enough standard TCM to pass boards. But oneprogram

could

focus on Yin fire school or SHL or Modern Integrative or Kampo, etc.

July 19, 2005

if you can get Clavey, Bensky < Mitchell etc to teach on line....

enrol me asap

Heiko Lade

M.H.Sc.(TCM)

Lecturer and clinic supervisor

-

cha

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:44 AM