vomiting feces

July 21, 2005

Hi All,

I just saw a patient with a profile I'd heard about in school, but never thought

I'd actually see. She suffers from severe constipation, sometimes with no bowel

movement for 2 weeks. Her diet is severely limited, to the point that she eats

only carrots, green beans, white bread and a medical supplement for nutrition -

all other foods cause her to be painfully bloated, with nausea and vomiting - of

feces. Has anyone ever treated anything like this? Her profile includes severe

childhood abuse (including enemas as punishment). She has been like this for

years! My current diagnosis for her is extreme wood-earth disharmony with food

stagnation, and I sense there will be much more revealed as time goes by. She

is on lots of meds for these symptoms and also for depression, pain (headaches),

insomnia and fibromyalgia. A very complicated health picture.

Thank you for any input and experiences you can share. I truly appreciate your

help.

wrote:

First I want to encourage all to probably the best western journal

I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern.

http://www.thelantern.com.au/

In the latest issue there is a great article, from an excerpt from one of

liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding the study of Chinese

Medicine "

As you all may or may not know, he was one of the foremost experts in the

SHL in the 20th century.

The article has some great thoughts on the importance of memorization, the

study of classics, as well as the balance between being a scholar and

clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating clinical utility as well as

masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm scholar who may read

voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it won't make him any

better.' I personally find there is important balance in being in the

trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free-time). One

IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics, modern

CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well thought out

excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and became a

TRUE master physician.

The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to support endeavors like the

Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member), so we can all continue to

have access to good material and discussions.

-

>

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM

>

> RE: what is MSU

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of

> > figure / like a high government official... Maybe all these stories are

> > made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to bring much to the table

> when

> > you read their books, and I don't think this is the exception in CM. I

> > have

> > a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors and it is quite

> interesting.

> > Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc.. all

> > saw

> > many patients. Have you heard different?

>

> Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few words. It should read:

>

> " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc. I

> thought all saw many patients. Have you heard different? "

>

> Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but pretty sure about

> ZhuDanXi

> (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...?

>

> -

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

July 21, 2005

Hi Andrea Beth,

What about tongue and pulses, what is her general appearance: eg. thin,

obese, complexion, other remarkable physical characteristics?

Yehuda

-

" " <

Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:12 PM

vomiting feces

> Hi All,

>

> I just saw a patient with a profile I'd heard about in school, but never

> thought I'd actually see. She suffers from severe constipation, sometimes

> with no bowel movement for 2 weeks. Her diet is severely limited, to the

> point that she eats only carrots, green beans, white bread and a medical

> supplement for nutrition - all other foods cause her to be painfully

> bloated, with nausea and vomiting - of feces. Has anyone ever treated

> anything like this? Her profile includes severe childhood abuse

> (including enemas as punishment). She has been like this for years! My

> current diagnosis for her is extreme wood-earth disharmony with food

> stagnation, and I sense there will be much more revealed as time goes by.

> She is on lots of meds for these symptoms and also for depression, pain

> (headaches), insomnia and fibromyalgia. A very complicated health

> picture.

>

> Thank you for any input and experiences you can share. I truly appreciate

> your help.

>

> wrote:

> First I want to encourage all to probably the best western

> journal

> I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern.

>

> http://www.thelantern.com.au/

>

> In the latest issue there is a great article, from an excerpt from one of

> liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding the study of Chinese

> Medicine "

> As you all may or may not know, he was one of the foremost experts in the

> SHL in the 20th century.

> The article has some great thoughts on the importance of memorization, the

> study of classics, as well as the balance between being a scholar and

> clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating clinical utility as well

> as

> masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm scholar who may read

> voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it won't make him any

> better.' I personally find there is important balance in being in the

> trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free-time). One

> IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics, modern

> CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well thought

> out

> excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and became a

> TRUE master physician.

>

> The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to support endeavors like the

> Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member), so we can all continue

> to

> have access to good material and discussions.

>

> -

>

>>

>> On Behalf Of

>> Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM

>>

>> RE: what is MSU

>>

>> >

>> > On Behalf Of

>> > figure / like a high government official... Maybe all these stories

>> > are

>> > made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to bring much to the table

>> when

>> > you read their books, and I don't think this is the exception in CM. I

>> > have

>> > a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors and it is quite

>> interesting.

>> > Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc..

>> > all

>> > saw

>> > many patients. Have you heard different?

>>

>> Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few words. It should read:

>>

>> " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc. I

>> thought all saw many patients. Have you heard different? "

>>

>> Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but pretty sure about

>> ZhuDanXi

>> (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...?

>>

>> -

>>

>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>>

July 23, 2005

Hello,

I knew two different people that experienced this

issue. They both had strictures in their small

intestines. They both stayed away from food with

fiber, so as not to block the stricture. One person,

of Chinese descent, only ate rice, tofu and a powdered

multi vitamin. They had the issue resolve, but

continued to be a vegetarian. The other person, of

American Indian descent, had a stricture from Crohn's

disease but cut out fiber, although they continued to

eat rich, greasy, spicy food. That person did get

chinese herbs that had Da Huang and Mang Xiao(both at

a low dosage) in a formula I can't remember, which he

took for close to 1 year. That person develop to a

point where there was a leaky gut and eventually it

would leak out of the body through a hole in their

abdomin around the Iliocecal valve area. That

person didn't have insurance and had problems getting

medical treatment. Finally that person got worried

and changed their diet after about a year of having a

leaky gut. They would only eat baked Chiles without

the outer skin(which makes it a little less spicy).

They were on a diet like that for 2 months and final

got admitted to the hospital where they remove d the

stricture and some polyps. One thing that was good

for that person was that the Crohn's had resolved

completely and he hasn't any more polyps. I don't

know if this help but it is what I experienced.

Jeffrey S Smith student

--- < wrote:

> Hi Andrea Beth,

>

> What about tongue and pulses, what is her general

> appearance: eg. thin,

> obese, complexion, other remarkable physical

> characteristics?

>

> Yehuda

> -

> " " <

>

> Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:12 PM

> vomiting feces

>

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I just saw a patient with a profile I'd heard

> about in school, but never

> > thought I'd actually see. She suffers from severe

> constipation, sometimes

> > with no bowel movement for 2 weeks. Her diet is

> severely limited, to the

> > point that she eats only carrots, green beans,

> white bread and a medical

> > supplement for nutrition - all other foods cause

> her to be painfully

> > bloated, with nausea and vomiting - of feces. Has

> anyone ever treated

> > anything like this? Her profile includes severe

> childhood abuse

> > (including enemas as punishment). She has been

> like this for years! My

> > current diagnosis for her is extreme wood-earth

> disharmony with food

> > stagnation, and I sense there will be much more

> revealed as time goes by.

> > She is on lots of meds for these symptoms and also

> for depression, pain

> > (headaches), insomnia and fibromyalgia. A very

> complicated health

> > picture.

> >

> > Thank you for any input and experiences you can

> share. I truly appreciate

> > your help.

> >

> wrote:

> > First I want to encourage all to

> probably the best western

> > journal

> > I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern.

> >

> > http://www.thelantern.com.au/

> >

> > In the latest issue there is a great article, from

> an excerpt from one of

> > liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding

> the study of Chinese

> > Medicine "

> > As you all may or may not know, he was one of the

> foremost experts in the

> > SHL in the 20th century.

> > The article has some great thoughts on the

> importance of memorization, the

> > study of classics, as well as the balance between

> being a scholar and

> > clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating

> clinical utility as well

> > as

> > masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm

> scholar who may read

> > voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it

> won't make him any

> > better.' I personally find there is important

> balance in being in the

> > trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings

> (or other free-time). One

> > IMO, cannot have true understanding without

> studying the classics, modern

> > CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays

> out a great well thought

> > out

> > excerpt, from someone who obviously has been

> around the block and became a

> > TRUE master physician.

> >

> > The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to

> support endeavors like the

> > Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member),

> so we can all continue

> > to

> > have access to good material and discussions.

> >

> > -

> >

> >>

> >> On

> Behalf Of

> >> Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM

> >>

> >> RE: what is MSU

> >>

> >> >

> >> > On

> Behalf Of

> >> > figure / like a high government official...

> Maybe all these stories

> >> > are

> >> > made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to

> bring much to the table

> >> when

> >> > you read their books, and I don't think this is

> the exception in CM. I

> >> > have

> >> > a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors

> and it is quite

> >> interesting.

> >> > Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ,

> LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc..

> >> > all

> >> > saw

> >> > many patients. Have you heard different?

> >>

> >> Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few

> words. It should read:

> >>

> >> " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ,

> LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc. I

> >> thought all saw many patients. Have you heard

> different? "

> >>

> >> Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but

> pretty sure about

> >> ZhuDanXi

> >> (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...?

> >>

> >> -

> >>

> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various

> professional services, including

> >> board approved continuing education classes, an

> annual conference and a

> >> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >>

July 24, 2005

In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:56:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

xerxesii2001 writes:

Her profile includes severe

> childhood abuse

> > (including enemas as punishment).

The above statement is key to her getting well.

You can look at biochemistry through herbology, nutrition and food

allergies all you want. You may even get relief from symptoms, but if you don't

deal with the childhood abuse issues, she will never really be well.

On the other hand, IMHO, if you were able to heal the childhood

abuse,,,,,, then the bowel symptoms would likely be cured with some minor

biochemical

intervention.

The effect of emotions in disease is a pervasive concept in CM. You

cannot separate the effect of the abuse out of this case.

If I were in your shoes, I would get her to a good Hypnotherapist trained

in dealing with subconscious beliefs so she can forgive the her cruel

childhood enema punishment and create a feeling of personal empowerment so she

doesn't feel like she has to control the bowel to compensate for some feeling of

lack or rebellion or powerlessness, or some other belief.

In the mean time, I would not stimulate the bowel with irritants. I

would use Mg citrate in sufficient doses to soften the stool. It will likely

help

with any strictures as well. There is a good product out there these days

that comes in flavors and tastes good called " Calm " .

Give here doses of enzymes like, Serrapetase, or Wobenzyme, of

Inflamaway.

Make sure is on Carlson fish oil and olive oil. Don't shy away from good

doses as these oils will reduce inflammation and improve her gut.

Of course, try to reestablish the beneficial flora in the gut. Seed with

acidophiluss and bifidus, and fertilize with some fruit or vegetable juice.

Cucumber, celery, a little garlic. Garlic only if it can be tolerated. Two

or three times a day.

Then treat according to patterns.

Comments welcome,

Chris

July 24, 2005

In a message dated 7/24/2005 10:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

Thank you, Chris. You offered lots of suggestions I hadn't yet thought of.

Her diet also involves avoiding fiber of all kinds.

I also believe the abuse is key to her healing, and she does as well. She's

been working with a therapist for 7 years, and it is her therapist who

referred her to me. I don't know if she's tried hypnotherapy - that may well be

very

valuable.

I haven't heard of the products you mentioned. Where can I get Calm,

Serrapetase, Wobenzyme, Inflamaway, and Carlson fish oil? Also - are there

websites

with more information about these products?

It was requested from another CHA member that I post more signs and symptoms

of her case. I will do this within the next few days, when I have a longer

period of time to review the complex details of her case.

Thank you,

Fiber is a tricky one. With such binding and stagnation, it would seem

like a good idea to avoid fiber.

On the other hand, without fiber, the bowels don't move well at all.

Also, some fibers are broken down by bacteria into sugars that feed them and

produce a healthy colony, which helps bowel movement. There is a tricky balance

there between making sure there is enough beneficial fiber and causing more

binding.

As far as the products I mentioned, they are fairly common health food

store items. Except for serrapetase, which is fairly new to the general market.

I will list some links below for further reading. Also if you google

each of the listed products, you will find lots of direction.

In general I like LEF.org and Mercola.Com for general quick info. Of

course there is always marketing to wade through, but most of the time the

concepts presented on those websights are fairly on track.

Serrapetase: http://smart-drugs.net/serrapeptase-research.htm

http://www.antiaging-health.org/761_0.htm

Wobenzyme: http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Wobenzym_Tablets.html

http://www.wobenzym.com/

Carlson fish oil: http://www.mercola.com/forms/carlsons.htm

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3006624

Mg Citrate: http://www.naturalcalm.net/home.shtml

Hypnosis info: http://gohypnosis.com/about.html

Please feel free to call Julia. She is a wealth of info and can give you

direction as to what to look for and expect for hypnosis sessions for your

client.

Anyway, there you go. If after reading you have any questions please let

me know.

All the best,

Chris

July 24, 2005

Mike, if you reread my post, you will notice that I did not suggest

forgoing biochemical intervention in place of emotional work. I suggested

intervention and emotional work.

Of course we can dominate emotional patterns with nutritional

intervention and some of the emotional symptoms will subside, at least for a

while. The

body, mind and emotions are all intertwined. If you push any one system, it

will effect the others.

In my mind, some emotional patterns have more of an effect on

biochemistry than supplementation can correct for. In some cases, and this is

likely one

of them, the person will need some form of supplementation to correct for

emotional trauma until the trauma is released.

Talk therapy is good for some things, but 7 years is a long time.

Hypnotherapy can help a person change deeply held beliefs that are running their

lives and pushing biochemistry.

Mike and I see this case similarly, although our timing and where we

place importance is a little different. I say get her hypnosis now along with

the

other interventions. He says wait a bit on the emotional work as he does not

see the clinical effectiveness of it.

I see the emotional trauma from the punishment as the most likely cause

of the bowel impacting and extremely important to heal for long term wellness.

I would focus on that more strongly than Mike would.

To each their own,

Chris

In a message dated 7/24/2005 11:42:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

I have not found this line of thinking to be effective clinically and would

not focus on her reliving her emotional trauma right now. The emotions are

a part of her symptom picture, no more no less. As her bowel function

improves it will make retaining these emotions difficult and she will then

deal with her issues. It is hard for things to cling and remain static when

things are moving.

This patient has a very serious condition, medically speaking. Bowel

function needs to be primary and the emotions secondary. The

auto-intoxication of this could produce serious illness or worse. I do

agree with things to improve bowels like supplimenting with bacteria and

enzymes but would not abandon the stronger purgatives yet. I do not recall

what their physician is recommending for care. Would you share this info?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Musiclear

>

>Re: vomiting feces

>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:51:52 EDT

>

>In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:56:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>xerxesii2001 writes:

>Her profile includes severe

> > childhood abuse

> > > (including enemas as punishment).

>

> The above statement is key to her getting well.

>

> You can look at biochemistry through herbology, nutrition and food

>allergies all you want. You may even get relief from symptoms, but if you

>don't

>deal with the childhood abuse issues, she will never really be well.

>

> On the other hand, IMHO, if you were able to heal the childhood

>abuse,,,,,, then the bowel symptoms would likely be cured with some minor

>biochemical

>intervention.

>

> The effect of emotions in disease is a pervasive concept in CM. You

>cannot separate the effect of the abuse out of this case.

>

> If I were in your shoes, I would get her to a good Hypnotherapist

>trained

>in dealing with subconscious beliefs so she can forgive the her cruel

>childhood enema punishment and create a feeling of personal empowerment so

>she

>doesn't feel like she has to control the bowel to compensate for some

>feeling of

>lack or rebellion or powerlessness, or some other belief.

>

> In the mean time, I would not stimulate the bowel with irritants. I

>would use Mg citrate in sufficient doses to soften the stool. It will

>likely help

>with any strictures as well. There is a good product out there these days

>that comes in flavors and tastes good called " Calm " .

>

> Give here doses of enzymes like, Serrapetase, or Wobenzyme, of

>Inflamaway.

>

> Make sure is on Carlson fish oil and olive oil. Don't shy away from

>good

>doses as these oils will reduce inflammation and improve her gut.

>

> Of course, try to reestablish the beneficial flora in the gut. Seed

>with

>acidophiluss and bifidus, and fertilize with some fruit or vegetable juice.

>Cucumber, celery, a little garlic. Garlic only if it can be tolerated.

>Two

>or three times a day.

>

> Then treat according to patterns.

>

> Comments welcome,

>

> Chris

July 24, 2005

Thanks, Jeff.

I will ask her if she's been checked for a stricture. Good luck with your

studies.

jeffrey smith <xerxesii2001 wrote:

Hello,

I knew two different people that experienced this

issue. They both had strictures in their small

intestines. They both stayed away from food with

fiber, so as not to block the stricture. One person,

of Chinese descent, only ate rice, tofu and a powdered

multi vitamin. They had the issue resolve, but

continued to be a vegetarian. The other person, of

American Indian descent, had a stricture from Crohn's

disease but cut out fiber, although they continued to

eat rich, greasy, spicy food. That person did get

chinese herbs that had Da Huang and Mang Xiao(both at

a low dosage) in a formula I can't remember, which he

took for close to 1 year. That person develop to a

point where there was a leaky gut and eventually it

would leak out of the body through a hole in their

abdomin around the Iliocecal valve area. That

person didn't have insurance and had problems getting

medical treatment. Finally that person got worried

and changed their diet after about a year of having a

leaky gut. They would only eat baked Chiles without

the outer skin(which makes it a little less spicy).

They were on a diet like that for 2 months and final

got admitted to the hospital where they remove d the

stricture and some polyps. One thing that was good

for that person was that the Crohn's had resolved

completely and he hasn't any more polyps. I don't

know if this help but it is what I experienced.

Jeffrey S Smith student

--- < wrote:

> Hi Andrea Beth,

>

> What about tongue and pulses, what is her general

> appearance: eg. thin,

> obese, complexion, other remarkable physical

> characteristics?

>

> Yehuda

> -

> " " <

>

> Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:12 PM

> vomiting feces

>

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I just saw a patient with a profile I'd heard

> about in school, but never

> > thought I'd actually see. She suffers from severe

> constipation, sometimes

> > with no bowel movement for 2 weeks. Her diet is

> severely limited, to the

> > point that she eats only carrots, green beans,

> white bread and a medical

> > supplement for nutrition - all other foods cause

> her to be painfully

> > bloated, with nausea and vomiting - of feces. Has

> anyone ever treated

> > anything like this? Her profile includes severe

> childhood abuse

> > (including enemas as punishment). She has been

> like this for years! My

> > current diagnosis for her is extreme wood-earth

> disharmony with food

> > stagnation, and I sense there will be much more

> revealed as time goes by.

> > She is on lots of meds for these symptoms and also

> for depression, pain

> > (headaches), insomnia and fibromyalgia. A very

> complicated health

> > picture.

> >

> > Thank you for any input and experiences you can

> share. I truly appreciate

> > your help.

> >

> wrote:

> > First I want to encourage all to

> probably the best western

> > journal

> > I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern.

> >

> > http://www.thelantern.com.au/

> >

> > In the latest issue there is a great article, from

> an excerpt from one of

> > liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding

> the study of Chinese

> > Medicine "

> > As you all may or may not know, he was one of the

> foremost experts in the

> > SHL in the 20th century.

> > The article has some great thoughts on the

> importance of memorization, the

> > study of classics, as well as the balance between

> being a scholar and

> > clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating

> clinical utility as well

> > as

> > masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm

> scholar who may read

> > voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it

> won't make him any

> > better.' I personally find there is important

> balance in being in the

> > trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings

> (or other free-time). One

> > IMO, cannot have true understanding without

> studying the classics, modern

> > CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays

> out a great well thought

> > out

> > excerpt, from someone who obviously has been

> around the block and became a

> > TRUE master physician.

> >

> > The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to

> support endeavors like the

> > Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member),

> so we can all continue

> > to

> > have access to good material and discussions.

> >

> > -

> >

> >>

> >> On

> Behalf Of

> >> Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM

> >>

> >> RE: what is MSU

> >>

> >> >

> >> > On

> Behalf Of

> >> > figure / like a high government official...

> Maybe all these stories

> >> > are

> >> > made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to

> bring much to the table

> >> when

> >> > you read their books, and I don't think this is

> the exception in CM. I

> >> > have

> >> > a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors

> and it is quite

> >> interesting.

> >> > Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ,

> LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc..

> >> > all

> >> > saw

> >> > many patients. Have you heard different?

> >>

> >> Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few

> words. It should read:

> >>

> >> " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ,

> LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi etc. I

> >> thought all saw many patients. Have you heard

> different? "

> >>

> >> Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but

> pretty sure about

> >> ZhuDanXi

> >> (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...?

> >>

> >> -

> >>

> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various

> professional services, including

> >> board approved continuing education classes, an

> annual conference and a

> >> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >>

July 24, 2005

Thank you, Chris. You offered lots of suggestions I hadn't yet thought of.

Her diet also involves avoiding fiber of all kinds.

I also believe the abuse is key to her healing, and she does as well. She's

been working with a therapist for 7 years, and it is her therapist who referred

her to me. I don't know if she's tried hypnotherapy - that may well be very

valuable.

I haven't heard of the products you mentioned. Where can I get Calm,

Serrapetase, Wobenzyme, Inflamaway, and Carlson fish oil? Also - are there

websites with more information about these products?

It was requested from another CHA member that I post more signs and symptoms of

her case. I will do this within the next few days, when I have a longer period

of time to review the complex details of her case.

Thank you,

Musiclear wrote:

In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:56:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

xerxesii2001 writes:

Her profile includes severe

> childhood abuse

> > (including enemas as punishment).

The above statement is key to her getting well.

You can look at biochemistry through herbology, nutrition and food

allergies all you want. You may even get relief from symptoms, but if you don't

deal with the childhood abuse issues, she will never really be well.

On the other hand, IMHO, if you were able to heal the childhood

abuse,,,,,, then the bowel symptoms would likely be cured with some minor

biochemical

intervention.

The effect of emotions in disease is a pervasive concept in CM. You

cannot separate the effect of the abuse out of this case.

If I were in your shoes, I would get her to a good Hypnotherapist trained

in dealing with subconscious beliefs so she can forgive the her cruel

childhood enema punishment and create a feeling of personal empowerment so she

doesn't feel like she has to control the bowel to compensate for some feeling of

lack or rebellion or powerlessness, or some other belief.

In the mean time, I would not stimulate the bowel with irritants. I

would use Mg citrate in sufficient doses to soften the stool. It will likely

help

with any strictures as well. There is a good product out there these days

that comes in flavors and tastes good called " Calm " .

Give here doses of enzymes like, Serrapetase, or Wobenzyme, of

Inflamaway.

Make sure is on Carlson fish oil and olive oil. Don't shy away from good

doses as these oils will reduce inflammation and improve her gut.

Of course, try to reestablish the beneficial flora in the gut. Seed with

acidophiluss and bifidus, and fertilize with some fruit or vegetable juice.

Cucumber, celery, a little garlic. Garlic only if it can be tolerated. Two

or three times a day.

Then treat according to patterns.

Comments welcome,

Chris

July 24, 2005

I have not found this line of thinking to be effective clinically and would

not focus on her reliving her emotional trauma right now. The emotions are

a part of her symptom picture, no more no less. As her bowel function

improves it will make retaining these emotions difficult and she will then

deal with her issues. It is hard for things to cling and remain static when

things are moving.

This patient has a very serious condition, medically speaking. Bowel

function needs to be primary and the emotions secondary. The

auto-intoxication of this could produce serious illness or worse. I do

agree with things to improve bowels like supplimenting with bacteria and

enzymes but would not abandon the stronger purgatives yet. I do not recall

what their physician is recommending for care. Would you share this info?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>Musiclear

>

>Re: vomiting feces

>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:51:52 EDT

>

>In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:56:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>xerxesii2001 writes:

>Her profile includes severe

> > childhood abuse

> > > (including enemas as punishment).

>

> The above statement is key to her getting well.

>

> You can look at biochemistry through herbology, nutrition and food

>allergies all you want. You may even get relief from symptoms, but if you

>don't

>deal with the childhood abuse issues, she will never really be well.

>

> On the other hand, IMHO, if you were able to heal the childhood

>abuse,,,,,, then the bowel symptoms would likely be cured with some minor

>biochemical

>intervention.

>

> The effect of emotions in disease is a pervasive concept in CM. You

>cannot separate the effect of the abuse out of this case.

>

> If I were in your shoes, I would get her to a good Hypnotherapist

>trained

>in dealing with subconscious beliefs so she can forgive the her cruel

>childhood enema punishment and create a feeling of personal empowerment so

>she

>doesn't feel like she has to control the bowel to compensate for some

>feeling of

>lack or rebellion or powerlessness, or some other belief.

>

> In the mean time, I would not stimulate the bowel with irritants. I

>would use Mg citrate in sufficient doses to soften the stool. It will

>likely help

>with any strictures as well. There is a good product out there these days

>that comes in flavors and tastes good called " Calm " .

>

> Give here doses of enzymes like, Serrapetase, or Wobenzyme, of

>Inflamaway.

>

> Make sure is on Carlson fish oil and olive oil. Don't shy away from

>good

>doses as these oils will reduce inflammation and improve her gut.

>

> Of course, try to reestablish the beneficial flora in the gut. Seed

>with

>acidophiluss and bifidus, and fertilize with some fruit or vegetable juice.

>Cucumber, celery, a little garlic. Garlic only if it can be tolerated.

>Two

>or three times a day.

>

> Then treat according to patterns.

>

> Comments welcome,

>

> Chris

>

July 24, 2005

Bleed her luo vessels- specifically Kidney 4 if it is

repressed- Lung 7 and GB 37 release outwards- treat

every other day for 11 days- this is per jeffrey yuen

--- Musiclear wrote:

> In a message dated 7/24/2005 10:44:23 AM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> writes:

> Thank you, Chris. You offered lots of suggestions I

> hadn't yet thought of.

>

> Her diet also involves avoiding fiber of all kinds.

>

> I also believe the abuse is key to her healing, and

> she does as well. She's

> been working with a therapist for 7 years, and it is

> her therapist who

> referred her to me. I don't know if she's tried

> hypnotherapy - that may well be very

> valuable.

>

> I haven't heard of the products you mentioned.

> Where can I get Calm,

> Serrapetase, Wobenzyme, Inflamaway, and Carlson

> fish oil? Also - are there websites

> with more information about these products?

>

> It was requested from another CHA member that I post

> more signs and symptoms

> of her case. I will do this within the next few

> days, when I have a longer

> period of time to review the complex details of her

> case.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Fiber is a tricky one. With such binding and

> stagnation, it would seem

> like a good idea to avoid fiber.

>

> On the other hand, without fiber, the bowels

> don't move well at all.

> Also, some fibers are broken down by bacteria into

> sugars that feed them and

> produce a healthy colony, which helps bowel

> movement. There is a tricky balance

> there between making sure there is enough beneficial

> fiber and causing more

> binding.

>

> As far as the products I mentioned, they are

> fairly common health food

> store items. Except for serrapetase, which is

> fairly new to the general market.

>

> I will list some links below for further

> reading. Also if you google

> each of the listed products, you will find lots of

> direction.

>

> In general I like LEF.org and Mercola.Com for

> general quick info. Of

> course there is always marketing to wade through,

> but most of the time the

> concepts presented on those websights are fairly on

> track.

>

> Serrapetase:

> http://smart-drugs.net/serrapeptase-research.htm

> http://www.antiaging-health.org/761_0.htm

>

> Wobenzyme:

> http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Wobenzym_Tablets.html

> http://www.wobenzym.com/

>

> Carlson fish oil:

> http://www.mercola.com/forms/carlsons.htm

>

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3006624

>

> Mg Citrate:

> http://www.naturalcalm.net/home.shtml

>

> Hypnosis info: http://gohypnosis.com/about.html

>

> Please feel free to call Julia. She is a wealth

> of info and can give you

> direction as to what to look for and expect for

> hypnosis sessions for your

> client.

>

> Anyway, there you go. If after reading you have

> any questions please let

> me know.

>

> All the best,

>

> Chris

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

__

Start your day with - make it your home page

http://www./r/hs

July 25, 2005

Hi Andrea Beth!

I also agree that regarding the emotional abuse as root is important

here. Along with the suggestion of hypnotherapy, I would also

venture to suggest (as I am wont to do) getting some instruction in

meditation--specifically Medical Qi Gong. This could help in two

ways: by helping the patient to better " inhabit " her bowels and

initiate some concious control of downbearing and to resolve anger,

resentment, fear of her previous controller--the abusive parent. She

would also be left with a fantastic self-help tool to deal with day

to day stresses which might threaten a relaspse. Though I haven't

treated vomiting of feces this way (or at all for that matter), I

have seen a very positive response in persons with IBS type

constipation which, like this case, can have

suspiciously " psychosomatic " roots. Good luck with this very

unpleasant suffering.

Regards, Shanna

,

<> wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> I just saw a patient with a profile I'd heard about in school, but

never thought I'd actually see. She suffers from severe

constipation, sometimes with no bowel movement for 2 weeks. Her

diet is severely limited, to the point that she eats only carrots,

green beans, white bread and a medical supplement for nutrition -

all other foods cause her to be painfully bloated, with nausea and

vomiting - of feces. Has anyone ever treated anything like this?

Her profile includes severe childhood abuse (including enemas as

punishment). She has been like this for years! My current

diagnosis for her is extreme wood-earth disharmony with food

stagnation, and I sense there will be much more revealed as time

goes by. She is on lots of meds for these symptoms and also for

depression, pain (headaches), insomnia and fibromyalgia. A very

complicated health picture.

>

> Thank you for any input and experiences you can share. I truly

appreciate your help.

>

> <@c...> wrote:

> First I want to encourage all to probably the best

western journal

> I have seen for CM, Steve Clavey's, The Lantern.

>

> http://www.thelantern.com.au/

>

> In the latest issue there is a great article, from an excerpt from

one of

> liu Du-Zhou's books entitled, " Thought regarding the study of

Chinese

> Medicine "

> As you all may or may not know, he was one of the foremost experts

in the

> SHL in the 20th century.

> The article has some great thoughts on the importance of

memorization, the

> study of classics, as well as the balance between being a scholar

and

> clinician. He is very adamant about evaluating clinical utility

as well as

> masterful study. He points out that 'the bookworm scholar who may

read

> voraciously...moves his lips all day reciting, it won't make him

any

> better.' I personally find there is important balance in being in

the

> trenches everyday, and studying in the evenings (or other free-

time). One

> IMO, cannot have true understanding without studying the classics,

modern

> CM, and practice on real patients. But he lays out a great well

thought out

> excerpt, from someone who obviously has been around the block and

became a

> TRUE master physician.

>

> The whole issue is packed full! I urge all to support endeavors

like the

> Lantern as well as the CHA (by becoming a member), so we can all

continue to

> have access to good material and discussions.

>

> -

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of Jason

> > Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:30 PM

> >

> > RE: what is MSU

> >

> > >

> > > On Behalf Of Jason

> > > figure / like a high government official... Maybe all these

stories are

> > > made up, but such famous doctors IMO seem to bring much to the

table

> > when

> > > you read their books, and I don't think this is the exception

in CM. I

> > > have

> > > a couple of books of about 100 famous doctors and it is quite

> > interesting.

> > > Even the 'major texts' authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi

etc.. all

> > > saw

> > > many patients. Have you heard different?

> >

> > Actually this last sentence somehow missed a few words. It

should read:

> >

> > " Even the 'major' texts authors, like ZZJ, LiDongYuan, ZhuDanxi

etc. I

> > thought all saw many patients. Have you heard different? "

> >

> > Meaning I am unsure about ZZJ and LiDongYuan, but pretty sure

about

> > ZhuDanXi

> > (I don't have my books here) - Do others know...?

> >

> > -

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

including

> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual

conference and a

> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

July 25, 2005

Jeffrey Yuen, 88th generation lineage holder of the

Jade Purity school of Daoism.

--- Heiko Lade <heikolade.acnm wrote:

> " the lungs deal with karma and with grief via the

> Po "

>

> Grief I understand, Karma, where does this knowledge

> come from ?

>

> Heiko Lade

> M.H.Sc.(TCM)

> Lecturer and clinic supervisor

>

> -

> david appleton

>

> Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:13 AM

> Re: vomiting feces

>

> from their trajectories they release down and out-

> ie

> to the exterior- they are the only two luo vessels

> with descending trajectories- GB37 deals with

> eyes, ie

> a new sense of vision of one's self and one's

> life,

> the lungs deal with karma and with grief via the

> Po,

> you use Ki 4 because it deals with jing, jing is

> utilized when the experience is too traumatic for

> the

> Self, too self-violating- jing comes out at Ki4 to

> make the experience unconscious, ie repressed.

>

> David

>

> --- < wrote:

>

> > Hi David,

> >

> > What does " release outwards " mean? I am

> unfamiliar

> > with this term.

> >

> > Thank you,

> >

> > david appleton <acuapple wrote:

> > Bleed her luo vessels- specifically Kidney 4 if

> it

> > is

> > repressed- Lung 7 and GB 37 release outwards-

> treat

> > every other day for 11 days- this is per jeffrey

> > yuen

> >

> > --- Musiclear wrote:

> >

> > > In a message dated 7/24/2005 10:44:23 AM

> Eastern

> > > Daylight Time,

> > > writes:

> > > Thank you, Chris. You offered lots of

> suggestions

> > I

> > > hadn't yet thought of.

> > >

> > > Her diet also involves avoiding fiber of all

> > kinds.

> > >

> > > I also believe the abuse is key to her

> healing,

> > and

> > > she does as well. She's

> > > been working with a therapist for 7 years, and

> it

> > is

> > > her therapist who

> > > referred her to me. I don't know if she's

> tried

> > > hypnotherapy - that may well be very

> > > valuable.

> > >

> > > I haven't heard of the products you mentioned.

>

> > > Where can I get Calm,

> > > Serrapetase, Wobenzyme, Inflamaway, and

> Carlson

> > > fish oil? Also - are there websites

> > > with more information about these products?

> > >

> > > It was requested from another CHA member that

> I

> > post

> > > more signs and symptoms

> > > of her case. I will do this within the next

> few

> > > days, when I have a longer

> > > period of time to review the complex details

> of

> > her

> > > case.

> > >

> > > Thank you,

> > >

> > > Fiber is a tricky one. With such binding

> and

> > > stagnation, it would seem

> > > like a good idea to avoid fiber.

> > >

> > > On the other hand, without fiber, the

> bowels

> > > don't move well at all.

> > > Also, some fibers are broken down by bacteria

> into

> > > sugars that feed them and

> > > produce a healthy colony, which helps bowel

> > > movement. There is a tricky balance

> > > there between making sure there is enough

> > beneficial

> > > fiber and causing more

> > > binding.

> > >

> > > As far as the products I mentioned, they

> are

> > > fairly common health food

> > > store items. Except for serrapetase, which is

> > > fairly new to the general market.

> > >

> > > I will list some links below for further

> > > reading. Also if you google

> > > each of the listed products, you will find

> lots of

> > > direction.

> > >

> > > In general I like LEF.org and Mercola.Com

> for

> > > general quick info. Of

> > > course there is always marketing to wade

> through,

> > > but most of the time the

> > > concepts presented on those websights are

> fairly

> > on

> > > track.

> > >

> > > Serrapetase:

> > >

> http://smart-drugs.net/serrapeptase-research.htm

> > > http://www.antiaging-health.org/761_0.htm

> > >

> > > Wobenzyme:

> > > http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Wobenzym_Tablets.html

> > >

> http://www.wobenzym.com/

> > >

> > > Carlson fish oil:

> > > http://www.mercola.com/forms/carlsons.htm

> > >

> >

>

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3006624

> > >

> > > Mg Citrate:

> > > http://www.naturalcalm.net/home.shtml

> > >

> > > Hypnosis info:

> > http://gohypnosis.com/about.html

> > >

> > > Please feel free to call Julia. She is a

> > wealth

> > > of info and can give you

> > > direction as to what to look for and expect

> for

> > > hypnosis sessions for your

> > > client.

> > >

> > > Anyway, there you go. If after reading

> you

> > have

> > > any questions please let

> > > me know.

> > >

> > > All the best,

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> >

>

=== message truncated ===

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

July 25, 2005

I had a long conversation today with this patient's therapist of 7 years. It

was her opinion that this patient has done significant work to release the

emotional backlog of her past. However, despite her 7-year history with this

patient, she was unaware that it was fecal material that was in the vomitus. I

was astounded to realize how compartmental some healing modalities are! The

therapist said she felt " relieved " to know her client would be getting quality

care to address her physical health.

I will try to email her case details tomorrow.

shannahickle <shannahickle wrote: