Guest guest Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 As far as I know, dang gui does not mimick estrogen in any form, no study has shown this that I am aware of. Just because an herb supplements yin or blood does not mean that it is an 'estrogen supplement'. On Jul 22, 2005, at 5:39 AM, Victoria Koos wrote: > Hello all, > Does anyone know about estrogen mimicking herbs? I understand that > dang gui has some similar properties to estrogen and possibly shu > di huang. Anyone know about recent research or any other herbs? > Thanks, > Victoria Koos L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 dang gui does not mimick estrogen in any form >>>correct this has been shown Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't this conceptualization a modern western idea much like that of western herbs or allopathic medicine? While I think it is good to know info I find it an attempt to cut corners in care. What do others think? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: estrogen herbs >Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:38:41 -0700 > >dang gui does not mimick estrogen in any form > >>>correct this has been shown > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 In a message dated 7/25/2005 1:54:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heikolade.acnm writes: She bought a simple western herb formula from the health food shop with black cohosh, dang gui etc, took 2 little pills a day and the night sweats and flushing stopped after a week. Well,,,,,,, what was the formula?? Dosage? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 " She bought a simple western herb formula from the health food shop with black cohosh, dang gui etc, took 2 little pills a day and the night sweats and flushing stopped after a week. She stopped taking them after a couple months and the heat came back, so she started again....and the heat stopped. " In my experience, most perimenopausal women not only exhibit yin vacuity with some kind of internal heat (vacuity, depressive, hyperactive, phlegm, etc.) but liver depression and qi vacuity. Typically, the duration and severity of perimenopausal complaints is directly proportional to the amount of liver depression inhibiting the qi mechanism and, therefore, preventing the change and transformation to completely take place. Further, the heat is due to the depression, even in the case of vacuity heat. I believe this is why Black Cohosh (Sheng Ma) is effective for the treatment of perimenopausal complaints. It upbears the clear, resolves depression, and disinihibits the qi mechanism. Therefore, the mechanism for the internal heat is cleared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 It all sounds great but I don't think that sheng ma is the same as Black Cohosh? They are differnt genus's (if that is the right word) cimicufuga. maybe they have similar indications? I don't know? , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > " She bought a simple western herb formula from the health food shop > with black cohosh, dang gui etc, took 2 little pills a day and the > night sweats and flushing stopped after a week. She stopped taking > them after a couple months and the heat came back, so she started > again....and the heat stopped. " > > In my experience, most perimenopausal women not only exhibit yin > vacuity with some kind of internal heat (vacuity, depressive, > hyperactive, phlegm, etc.) but liver depression and qi vacuity. > Typically, the duration and severity of perimenopausal complaints is > directly proportional to the amount of liver depression inhibiting the > qi mechanism and, therefore, preventing the change and transformation > to completely take place. Further, the heat is due to the depression, > even in the case of vacuity heat. I believe this is why Black Cohosh > (Sheng Ma) is effective for the treatment of perimenopausal > complaints. It upbears the clear, resolves depression, and > disinihibits the qi mechanism. Therefore, the mechanism for the > internal heat is cleared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of Bob Flaws I believe this is why Black Cohosh > (Sheng Ma) is effective for the treatment of perimenopausal > complaints. It upbears the clear, resolves depression, and > disinihibits the qi mechanism. Therefore, the mechanism for the > internal heat is cleared. But I thought sheng ma is a different herb than black cohosh... -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Black Cohosh (Sheng Ma) >>>>Are they the same species? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Black Cohosh (Sheng Ma) >>>>Are they the same species? Not according to most sources. Cimicifuga racemosa is used for black cohosh, and 3-4 other species are used for Sheng Ma, according to Chen, Hsu and others. I wonder why Bob Flaws refers to them as being the same? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Chris Next time in a health food shop I will get the formula Heiko - Musiclear Monday, July 25, 2005 11:57 PM Re: Re: estrogen herbs In a message dated 7/25/2005 1:54:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heikolade.acnm writes: She bought a simple western herb formula from the health food shop with black cohosh, dang gui etc, took 2 little pills a day and the night sweats and flushing stopped after a week. Well,,,,,,, what was the formula?? Dosage? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 " I wonder why Bob Flaws refers to them as being the same? " My impression is that they function the same in terms of CM. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 My impression is that they function the same in terms of CM. >>>>They are very different chemically Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Mike, I tend to believe that the problem of classical literature as the difference between handing someone a fish, and teaching someone to fish... Nor do I believe that in the " old days " diseases were simpler. Since almost all one's patients were wealthy and influential and a misdiagnosis had dire consequences (- If one is correct in their diagnosis, even a broad general category formula will show positive results. I agree with your conclusion as to effect of treatments when most patients are inpatient, bounce around different treatment methodologies, have come to you as a last resort and fail to tell the truth. The classics say not to treat these type of people - But when you are new and first learning and eager for a challenge or more than likely, a starving acupuncturist ... Including western medicine - the greatest advancement in health has come from 1. cleanliness 2. Diet and 3. lifestyle (exercise as part of that). To quote Napoleon " you physicians will account for more dead than us generals " still true today, sadly. In my younger days once when I was gainfully employed and had great insurance I had medical problems that no western doctor could figure out. I was sent to one specialist after another. Since I was in the martial arts my teacher suggested I go see an acupuncturist. I did and after the initial interview (less than ten minutes) he started to walk out saying he could only temporarily help me. I asked what could I do and he replied " quit your job, and take responsibility for your own life " . I talked him into putting some needles into me (my first experience) and I actually did feel better for awhile. I thought of what he had said. I quit my job, embarked upon a new journey, become poor, healthy, and happy. I won't say who the acupuncturist was because frankly it wasn't his needling skills. The intervention that worked for me was not needling or herbal formulas. And the classics never fail to include this understanding. Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist Acupuncture is a jab well done www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 Re: Re: estrogen herbs One of the great difficulties with prescribing Chinese herbs is that most westerners are much more complex than we realize and the classical literature tends to focuse on one pattern at a time. This makes logical sense but not reality for our western patients. I have also found this problematic when supervising school interns who tend to focus only on the symptoms and make a misdiagnosis in clinic. Hang in there and remember that it is hard to treat with herbs/acupuncture when patients need to change their lifestyle and dietary habits. No change means symptomatic continuation. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Including western medicine - the greatest advancement in health has come from 1. cleanliness 2. Diet and 3. lifestyle >>>>I just saw a report on CNN that showed some 20 years increase in life span from the 1950s. I would have a hard time believing that the above account for that. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Ed, I see your point but would like to add that today we are seeing the results of various supressive therapies used in succession. Other types of practitioners, such as homeopaths, have commented on this as well. The concept of an onion has been used to describe this. When old injuries and illnesses are never fully allowed to clear and others come this leaves an ugly pucture for us. Many of us as practitioners are not fully following our own traditions when it comes to food, fasting, etc. The culture of the times was just as important in people's health. Thank you for your dialogue. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy > > > RE: estrogen herbs >Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:28:49 -0700 > >Mike, I tend to believe that the problem of classical >literature as the difference between handing someone a fish, >and teaching someone to fish... > >Nor do I believe that in the " old days " diseases were >simpler. Since almost all one's patients were wealthy and >influential and a misdiagnosis had dire consequences (- > > >If one is correct in their diagnosis, even a broad general >category formula will show positive results. > >I agree with your conclusion as to effect of treatments when >most patients are inpatient, bounce around different >treatment methodologies, have come to you as a last resort >and fail to tell the truth. The classics say not to treat >these type of people - But when you are new and first >learning and eager for a challenge or more than likely, a >starving acupuncturist ... > >Including western medicine - the greatest advancement in >health has come from 1. cleanliness 2. Diet and 3. lifestyle >(exercise as part of that). To quote Napoleon " you >physicians will account for more dead than us generals " >still true today, sadly. > >In my younger days once when I was gainfully employed and >had great insurance I had medical problems that no western >doctor could figure out. I was sent to one specialist after >another. Since I was in the martial arts my teacher >suggested I go see an acupuncturist. I did and after the >initial interview (less than ten minutes) he started to walk >out saying he could only temporarily help me. I asked what >could I do and he replied " quit your job, and take >responsibility for your own life " . I talked him into >putting some needles into me (my first experience) and I >actually did feel better for awhile. I thought of what he >had said. I quit my job, embarked upon a new journey, become >poor, healthy, and happy. > >I won't say who the acupuncturist was because frankly it >wasn't his needling skills. The intervention that worked for >me was not needling or herbal formulas. And the classics >never fail to include this understanding. > >Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist >Acupuncture is a jab well done >www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. > > > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 >Re: Re: estrogen herbs > >One of the great difficulties with prescribing Chinese herbs >is that most >westerners are much more complex than we realize and the >classical >literature tends to focuse on one pattern at a time. This >makes logical >sense but not reality for our western patients. I have also >found this >problematic when supervising school interns who tend to >focus only on the >symptoms and make a misdiagnosis in clinic. Hang in there >and remember that >it is hard to treat with herbs/acupuncture when patients >need to change >their lifestyle and dietary habits. No change means >symptomatic >continuation. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Bob, Do you find Sheng Ma being drying? In school several teachers emphasized both Sheng Ma and Chai Hu being very drying. Thanks. Ferran > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 > > > Re: estrogen herbs >Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:23:26 -0000 > > " She bought a simple western herb formula from the health food shop >with black cohosh, dang gui etc, took 2 little pills a day and the >night sweats and flushing stopped after a week. She stopped taking >them after a couple months and the heat came back, so she started >again....and the heat stopped. " > >In my experience, most perimenopausal women not only exhibit yin >vacuity with some kind of internal heat (vacuity, depressive, >hyperactive, phlegm, etc.) but liver depression and qi vacuity. >Typically, the duration and severity of perimenopausal complaints is >directly proportional to the amount of liver depression inhibiting the >qi mechanism and, therefore, preventing the change and transformation >to completely take place. Further, the heat is due to the depression, >even in the case of vacuity heat. I believe this is why Black Cohosh >(Sheng Ma) is effective for the treatment of perimenopausal >complaints. It upbears the clear, resolves depression, and >disinihibits the qi mechanism. Therefore, the mechanism for the >internal heat is cleared. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2005 Report Share Posted July 27, 2005 Enzo, I never use signles, so I can't really answer your question. If the Rx is well crafted, neither herb is necessarily a problem. In fact, Chai Hu has become more popular in China for perimenopausal complaints in the last two years as more Chinese doctors realize the role of liver depression in those complaints. Bob , " Enzo Blasco " <zoilander@h...> wrote: > Bob, > > Do you find Sheng Ma being drying? In school several teachers emphasized > both Sheng Ma and Chai Hu being very drying. > > Thanks. > > Ferran > > > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> > > > > > > Re: estrogen herbs > >Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:23:26 -0000 > > > > " She bought a simple western herb formula from the health food shop > >with black cohosh, dang gui etc, took 2 little pills a day and the > >night sweats and flushing stopped after a week. She stopped taking > >them after a couple months and the heat came back, so she started > >again....and the heat stopped. " > > > >In my experience, most perimenopausal women not only exhibit yin > >vacuity with some kind of internal heat (vacuity, depressive, > >hyperactive, phlegm, etc.) but liver depression and qi vacuity. > >Typically, the duration and severity of perimenopausal complaints is > >directly proportional to the amount of liver depression inhibiting the > >qi mechanism and, therefore, preventing the change and transformation > >to completely take place. Further, the heat is due to the depression, > >even in the case of vacuity heat. I believe this is why Black Cohosh > >(Sheng Ma) is effective for the treatment of perimenopausal > >complaints. It upbears the clear, resolves depression, and > >disinihibits the qi mechanism. Therefore, the mechanism for the > >internal heat is cleared. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2005 Report Share Posted July 27, 2005 Dear Bob and Group, Even if we never use singles, it is still a good idea for us to know as much as we can about the properties of the herbs in our formulas. This discussion of Sheng Ma (is it the same as black cohosh? Most people seem to think not) has shown that we cannot assume species within a genus are the same. And even if a drying herb is not a problem " if the Rx is well crafted " , you would still need to know if it were drying, in order to make the Rx " well crafted. " Do you agree? Julie - Bob Flaws Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:16 AM Re: estrogen herbs Enzo, I never use signles, so I can't really answer your question. If the Rx is well crafted, neither herb is necessarily a problem. In fact, Chai Hu has become more popular in China for perimenopausal complaints in the last two years as more Chinese doctors realize the role of liver depression in those complaints. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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