Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Does anyone have any info (Chinese or other) on Azospermia, besides what is in that Male sexual dysfunction book? Thanx, -Jason <Chinese Medicine> tel: <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Hi Jason, Azospermia, or a lack of sperm in the semen presents in Klinefelter's syndrome. Boys with Klinefelter's have an extra X chromosome and are normal in appearance before puberty. In the patient I saw, a 26 year old, the only tell-tale sign was smaller than normal testes discovered during a routine physical. As would be expected, there were obvious signs of kidney (in his case Yang) deficiency: a very short, pale tongue (so short in fact, that I couldn't even see the back of the tongue!), aversion to cold, kidney yang pulse thready, kidney yin pulse thready and choppy, chronic low back pain (which he attributed to a car accident), knee pain, soft tinnitus, and averson to " salty " taste. Hope that helps. BTW, " Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment " edited by Tierney et al, speaks about it as well. Yehuda ---- Original Message ----- " " Monday, August 01, 2005 5:51 PM Azospermia > Does anyone have any info (Chinese or other) on Azospermia, besides what > is > in that Male sexual dysfunction book? > > > > Thanx, > > > > -Jason > > > <Chinese Medicine> > > tel: > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add > me > to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature > like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Well the interesting thing in this case is there are zero kidney def signs and he has 2 children from a past relationship... Actually he is quite healthy all around... It is very odd... -Jason > > > On Behalf Of > Monday, August 01, 2005 8:34 PM > > Re: Azospermia > > Hi Jason, > > Azospermia, or a lack of sperm in the semen presents in Klinefelter's > syndrome. Boys with Klinefelter's have an extra X chromosome and are > normal in appearance before puberty. In the patient I saw, a 26 year old, > the only tell-tale sign was smaller than normal testes discovered during a > routine physical. As would be expected, there were obvious signs of > kidney > (in his case Yang) deficiency: a very short, pale tongue (so short in fact, > that I couldn't even see the back of the tongue!), aversion to cold, > kidney > yang pulse thready, kidney yin pulse thready and choppy, chronic low back > pain (which he attributed to a car accident), knee pain, soft tinnitus, > and > averson to " salty " taste. > > Hope that helps. BTW, " Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment " edited > by > Tierney et al, speaks about it as well. > > Yehuda > > ---- Original Message ----- > " " > > Monday, August 01, 2005 5:51 PM > Azospermia > > > > Does anyone have any info (Chinese or other) on Azospermia, besides what > > is > > in that Male sexual dysfunction book? > > > > > > > > Thanx, > > > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine> > > > > tel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add > > me > > to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a > signature > > like this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Yehuda, Not sure if I follow your line of reasoning w/ the XXY. If you are suggesting that the S & S of ki yin/yang def are manifesting as XXY that would be incorrect. No amount of supplementing will resolve that underlying condition. ie it is a genetic condition...prenatal essence. Are you suggesting that you have research that supports using Ki tonics to effect the sertoli cell in the testes to produce sperm? Tying the tx dx of Ki def to XXY does not work. The problem in XXY is the lack of inactivation of the X chromosome creating high levels of FSH which then inactivate the seritoli cells which produce the sperm. Gynomastony, tall height, small testes, infertility, ADD/HD would be some characteristics. My best to you, Warren Cargal > > " " > 2005/08/02 Tue AM 08:33:00 EDT > > RE: Azospermia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Yehuda, Not sure if I follow your line of reasoning w/ the XXY. If you are suggesting that the S & S of ki yin/yang def are manifesting as XXY that would be incorrect. No amount of supplementing will resolve that underlying condition. ie it is a genetic condition...prenatal essence. Are you suggesting that you have research that supports using Ki tonics to effect the sertoli cell in the testes to produce sperm? Tying the tx dx of Ki def to XXY does not work. The problem in XXY is the lack of inactivation of the X chromosome creating high levels of FSH which then inactivate the seritoli cells which produce the sperm. Gynomastony, tall height, small testes, infertility, ADD/HD would be some characteristics. My best to you, Warren Cargal > > " " > 2005/08/02 Tue AM 08:33:00 EDT > > RE: Azospermia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Hi Warren, No, I am not suggesting that in the slightest. Rather, I am suggesting that a genetic disorder manifesting with azospermia would most logically present with s/s of kidney deficiency, as was the case in the gentleman I saw. Three other thoughts to consider: as has been discussed before, DNA can change, and there as with other genetic disorders, there are degrees of seriousness. For example, in the case I saw, other than the small testes, he presented no other abnormalities. Furthermore, in " Current Medical Diagnosis " 2002 edition they do speak of the possibility of successful in vitro fertilitization with Klinefelters patients. all the best, Yehuda - <wcargal9 Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:21 AM Re: RE: Azospermia > Yehuda, > > Not sure if I follow your line of reasoning w/ the XXY. If you are > suggesting that the S & S of ki yin/yang def are manifesting as XXY that > would be incorrect. No amount of supplementing will resolve that > underlying condition. ie it is a genetic condition...prenatal essence. Are > you suggesting that you have research that supports using Ki tonics to > effect the sertoli cell in the testes to produce sperm? Tying the tx dx of > Ki def to XXY does not work. The problem in XXY is the lack of > inactivation of the X chromosome creating high levels of FSH which then > inactivate the seritoli cells which produce the sperm. Gynomastony, tall > height, small testes, infertility, ADD/HD would be some characteristics. > > My best to you, > > Warren Cargal >> >> " " >> 2005/08/02 Tue AM 08:33:00 EDT >> >> RE: Azospermia >> >> > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Hi Yehuda, " Rather, I am suggesting that a genetic disorder manifesting with azospermia would most logically present with s/s of kidney deficiency " ....seems like a leap to couple the WM dx w/ the ki def.. More practically you could treat the ki def till the moon turned blue w/out effecting the azospermia. Warren > > " " < > 2005/08/02 Tue PM 12:10:21 EDT > > Re: RE: Azospermia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 You would be correct if you view this manifestation from a purely western perspective, meaning that since the watch is missing a spring, of course it won't run. But I am suggesting the possibility that looking at the azospermia from a purely CM perspective, doing a differerential diagnosis, and treating based upon the pattern, should not be viewed as an exercise in futility. If, for example, in the case I presented, kd yang was tonified, IMHO one shouldn't discount the possibility that more balance and wellness would result. Would the patient ever be able to produce sperm? 'Can't say, but I wouldn't be surprised. I remember seeing a study with mongoloid children a couple of years ago, who responded amazingly to Craniosacral and nutritional therapies, whose IQ's improved signifiicantly and even whose facial features changed. According to the Western mechanical model that would be impossible, but it happened. Obviously the DNA changed. So why not assume that other changes are also possible? Yehuda - <wcargal9 Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:07 AM Re: RE: Azospermia > Hi Yehuda, > > " Rather, I am suggesting that a genetic disorder manifesting with > azospermia would most logically present with s/s of kidney > deficiency " ....seems like a leap to couple the WM dx w/ the ki def.. More > practically you could treat the ki def till the moon turned blue w/out > effecting the azospermia. > > Warren >> >> " " < >> 2005/08/02 Tue PM 12:10:21 EDT >> >> Re: RE: Azospermia >> >> > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of > Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:34 PM > > Re: RE: Azospermia > > You would be correct if you view this manifestation from a purely western > perspective, meaning that since the watch is missing a spring, of course > it > won't run. But I am suggesting the possibility that looking at the > azospermia from a purely CM perspective, doing a differerential diagnosis, > and treating based upon the pattern, should not be viewed as an exercise > in > futility. Yes.. Does anyone have any info on azospermia from a CM perspective (except from the Male dysfunction Book) BTW- that book clearly thinks that there is some kidney def in all patterns mentioned. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of > Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:34 PM > > Re: RE: Azospermia > > You would be correct if you view this manifestation from a purely western > perspective, meaning that since the watch is missing a spring, of course > it > won't run. But I am suggesting the possibility that looking at the > azospermia from a purely CM perspective, doing a differerential diagnosis, > and treating based upon the pattern, should not be viewed as an exercise > in > futility. Furthermore I do not believe, nor do I think CM supports the idea, that one can have a free for all in differential dx for diseases. I.e. Some disease, due to the various pathomechanisms involved, will only lend themselves to certain patterns. Other patterns just are not possible or do not make much sense. I see a common error in many Westerners who get the impression that the disease does not matter and one can just find any pattern they want and think that it fits / is causing the disease. I.e. oh 'they' have liver spleen disharmony, give them xiao yao san. Well this may be true, but will that REALLY treat the disease (Western or Chinese) present. Many times not. Dx is a multiple step process which starts with the disease heading (at least if we are talking about basic CM / zang fu) ... My 2 cents, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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