pulse diagonis

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to relay the dangers of relying on pulse diagnosis. I have just

received a letter from the wife of a patient that have been seeing Michael

Brofman for many years. I saw him a few time for back pain which improved with

treatment, although i did suggest he should do some imaging. He did not. He has

been suffering from many internal med symptoms for many years. When i last saw

him in 2002 he told me that Michael told him that the pulses show that all his

symptoms are from Spiritual causes and that if he did not change his spiritual

life he would always have them.

Apparently his symptoms have increased with time and he kept seeing many

alternative med practitioners. Apparently they diagnosed him with " viruses,

adrenal stress, kidney qi deficiency, insufficient hormones, lack of

communication between organs and glandular imbalance. " He was treated with

" hands-on work, exercises, diet changes, supplements and psycho spiritual

assessment and suggestions. "

Not one of these therapies ever suggested he should be evaluated medical. At

some point his started to get sever abdominal pains that he could not move so he

finally went to the ER. The CT he did at the ER showed thickening of the

peritoneum and omentum. Laparoscopy revealed widespread adenocarcinoma. His

CA-19-9 was at 40.000 (normal is 30). He died less than six wk from diagnosis.

As i said in the past, i do not believe you can trust pulse diagnosis with

peoples life

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

To be fair, Alon,

WM misses stuff a lot as well. A dear friend of mine may have

lived longer when she noticed a small lump in her breast which was

diagnosed as benign three times. Only several months later did the

oncologists final diagnose her with breast cancer which had already

spread. Interestingly, her new infant refused to nurse on that

breast. Both her husband and myself suspected the worse, and I kept

sending her back for more tests.

I've also seen pulse diagnosis lead people to potentially life

saving interventions. Recently, a colleague of mine had a pulse

consultation that revealed a problem with her liver, and what he

claimed were stomach ulcers. When she went in for testing, they

found a fluid-filled cyst on the liver and three stomach ulcers.

I've also had a few circumstances where I sent people in for WM

testing when I suspected serious illness via the pulse, and it was

confirmed.

Pulse diagnosis can be a valuable tool, but not necessarily

alone. Of course we need to refer the full spectrum of health care

when necessary, but often serious diseases can be missed, even with

in-depth biomedical tests.

 

 

On Aug 5, 2005, at 6:07 PM, wrote:

 

> Just wanted to relay the dangers of relying on pulse diagnosis. I

> have just received a letter from the wife of a patient that have

> been seeing Michael Brofman for many years. I saw him a few time

> for back pain which improved with treatment, although i did suggest

> he should do some imaging. He did not. He has been suffering from

> many internal med symptoms for many years. When i last saw him in

> 2002 he told me that Michael told him that the pulses show that all

> his symptoms are from Spiritual causes and that if he did not

> change his spiritual life he would always have them.

> Apparently his symptoms have increased with time and he kept seeing

> many alternative med practitioners. Apparently they diagnosed him

> with " viruses, adrenal stress, kidney qi deficiency, insufficient

> hormones, lack of communication between organs and glandular

> imbalance. " He was treated with " hands-on work, exercises, diet

> changes, supplements and psycho spiritual assessment and suggestions. "

> Not one of these therapies ever suggested he should be evaluated

> medical. At some point his started to get sever abdominal pains

> that he could not move so he finally went to the ER. The CT he did

> at the ER showed thickening of the peritoneum and omentum.

> Laparoscopy revealed widespread adenocarcinoma. His CA-19-9 was at

> 40.000 (normal is 30). He died less than six wk from diagnosis.

> As i said in the past, i do not believe you can trust pulse

> diagnosis with peoples life

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

[Guest guest]

Both her husband and myself suspected the worse, and I kept

sending her back for more tests.

>>>Good for you

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When she went in for testing, they

found a fluid-filled cyst on the liver

>>>>Did these mean anything? usually they do not

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

pulse diagnosis was the main tool of many early chinese herbalist. The

sensitivity of one's hand is so precious that a good diagnosis is based on

training and sensitivity of the fingers. If you want I could site the books on

early American herbal practices by the chinese pioneers.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:Just wanted to relay the dangers of

relying on pulse diagnosis. I have just received a letter from the wife of a

patient that have been seeing Michael Brofman for many years. I saw him a few

time for back pain which improved with treatment, although i did suggest he

should do some imaging. He did not. He has been suffering from many internal med

symptoms for many years. When i last saw him in 2002 he told me that Michael

told him that the pulses show that all his symptoms are from Spiritual causes

and that if he did not change his spiritual life he would always have them.

Apparently his symptoms have increased with time and he kept seeing many

alternative med practitioners. Apparently they diagnosed him with " viruses,

adrenal stress, kidney qi deficiency, insufficient hormones, lack of

communication between organs and glandular imbalance. " He was treated with

" hands-on work, exercises, diet changes, supplements and psycho spiritual

assessment and suggestions. "

Not one of these therapies ever suggested he should be evaluated medical. At

some point his started to get sever abdominal pains that he could not move so he

finally went to the ER. The CT he did at the ER showed thickening of the

peritoneum and omentum. Laparoscopy revealed widespread adenocarcinoma. His

CA-19-9 was at 40.000 (normal is 30). He died less than six wk from diagnosis.

As i said in the past, i do not believe you can trust pulse diagnosis with

peoples life

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The issue of the validity of pulse diagnosis is

something I have been questioning over the past few

months, since finding out a patient of mine was

diagnosed with breast cancer.

 

I started practicing pulse diagnosis while I was still

in school on clients I was treating(as a bodyworker,

yoga therapist). I figured, since as one of my

instructors quoted, " It takes ten years to become a

beginner in pulse diagnosis " I would get an early

start. She was one of my early patients, and so I have

been seeing this patient for close to seven years.

Her pulse to my 'beginners' touch never seemed out of

the ordinary from her usual slippery and occassional

wiry quality pulse.

 

I saw her last two months ago when she surprised me

with cancer diagnosis. The ironic part is that she

herself first noticed a lump in her breast(about a

year ago) which she mentioned to her MD who sadly did

not diagnose it then. It was a second visit a year

later in which it was diagnosed by the MD. Now the

patient is doing well with her chemo and integrative

treatment(including herbs-from another more

experienced practitioner), but it has really led me to

doubt the validity of using pulse diagnosis.

 

My biggest concern are patients who will assume a

benign, not out of the ordinary pulse diagnsosis from

one of us, will lead the patient to feel 'nothing is

wrong with me' attitude, preventing a timely diagnosis

of a serious health problem. Now as my story

illustrates MDs can just as easily miss a diagnosis,

but my point is more about the validity of the pulse

as a diagnostic tool.

 

The event which has most made me question pulse

diagnosis was a conversation I had with a respected

colleague(who many of you probably know) who had the

opportunity to study TCM, Ayurvedic and Tibetan

medicine. I asked him for his opinion on the use of

pulse diagnosis, thinking his study of so many eastern

meds. might enlighten my own understanding. He

surprisingly said that he after studying the different

meds no longer uses pulse diagnosis, except for very

basic vital signs. The reason was that each medicine

used different pulse locations to symbolize different

organs, and that there was for the most part no

correlation between the three practices. So a lung in

tibetan med might be found on the left cun position,

and maybe a differnt area for ayurvedic medicine.( I

dont know the real positions-i am just illustrating a

point.) So if the traditional medicines dont even

correlate, there is no certainty of who ,if any of

them, are right.

 

So then the question really is: Is pulse diagnosis

really a valid method for diagnosis? Or are we just

creating a diagnostic illusion for both ourselves as

practitioners, and our patients?

 

...Infinite gratitude to all things past..

....Infinite respect to all things present...

.....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

......Tao.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>I've also had a few circumstances where I sent

>people in for WM

>testing when I suspected serious illness via the

>pulse, and it was

>confirmed.'

 

Zev,

 

Im just wondering, do you think it was the pulse

diagnosis or do you think it was your own personal

diagnostic skills, based on experience/intuition,

questioning, observation, etc. that led you to

suspect a serious illness?

 

Because I am starting to believe it is less about a

diagnosis from the pulse and more about a

practitioners complete package(including the fact that

we spend a lot of time with our patients) that catches

these cases of 'serious illness'.

 

Anton

 

 

...Infinite gratitude to all things past..

....Infinite respect to all things present...

.....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

......Tao.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anton,

If you read the Nan Jing or other pulse-oriented texts, you see

that pulse diagnosis is recommended to be taken in context of other

diagnoses such as palpation, color, questioning, etc. before a

diagnostic conclusion is reached. This was the case with my patients

as well.

 

Having said that, I've had the occasion to apprentice with such

physicians as Yeshe Dhonden, who doesn't speak any English, and he

was able to give incredibly specific diagnosis just from pulse and

urine analysis, followed by a few questions through a translator.

 

I once attended a group diagnosis session sponsored by UCSD

medical school with a Tibetan physician, Lopsang Ropgay, who was

asked to diagnose a group of eighteen cancer patients. He was able

to tell, by pulse alone, what type of cancer they had, and was also

able to tell that one of the patients didn't have cancer, but was HIV

positive. It was quite an amazing event for all concerned, including

the M.D.'s. I think one can developed very nuanced diagnostic skills

with the pulse, and I've observed this with Chinese, Tibetan and

Ayurvedic physicians (Dr. Vasant Lad comes to mind).

 

I think the main issue with pulse diagnosis is what kinds of

conditions can be diagnosed. It will be more effective with issues

related to patterns, humoral changes, and functional considerations

rather than specific diseases, although these can be sometimes

detected when combined with other Chinese diagnostic methods.

 

 

 

 

On Aug 8, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Anton Borja wrote:

 

>> I've also had a few circumstances where I sent

>> people in for WM

>> testing when I suspected serious illness via the

>> pulse, and it was

>> confirmed.'

>>

>

> Zev,

>

> Im just wondering, do you think it was the pulse

> diagnosis or do you think it was your own personal

> diagnostic skills, based on experience/intuition,

> questioning, observation, etc. that led you to

> suspect a serious illness?

>

> Because I am starting to believe it is less about a

> diagnosis from the pulse and more about a

> practitioners complete package(including the fact that

> we spend a lot of time with our patients) that catches

> these cases of 'serious illness'.

>

> Anton

>

>

> ..Infinite gratitude to all things past..

> ...Infinite respect to all things present...

> ....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

> .....Tao.....

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Aug 8, 2005, at 9:17 AM, Anton Borja wrote:

 

>

> The event which has most made me question pulse

> diagnosis was a conversation I had with a respected

> colleague(who many of you probably know) who had the

> opportunity to study TCM, Ayurvedic and Tibetan

> medicine. I asked him for his opinion on the use of

> pulse diagnosis, thinking his study of so many eastern

> meds. might enlighten my own understanding. He

> surprisingly said that he after studying the different

> meds no longer uses pulse diagnosis, except for very

> basic vital signs. The reason was that each medicine

> used different pulse locations to symbolize different

> organs, and that there was for the most part no

> correlation between the three practices. So a lung in

> tibetan med might be found on the left cun position,

> and maybe a differnt area for ayurvedic medicine.( I

> dont know the real positions-i am just illustrating a

> point.) So if the traditional medicines dont even

> correlate, there is no certainty of who ,if any of

> them, are right.

 

Tibetan medicine and Ayurveda palpate the vessels higher up on the

arm. However, within each system, there are variations from Chinese

medicine in what is being looked at. Generally there are different

pulse system maps, even within Chinese medicine, depending on whether

one is palpating the channels or the contents of upper, middle and

lower burners. Because a lot of blood and qi are running under the

fingers (Paul Unschuld calls pulse diagnosis investigating movement

in the vessels), pulse diagnosis may be more a matter of determining

the nature of the movement of qi and blood under the fingers than any

fixed location for it, even though Chinese medicine fixes the cunkou

on the wrist as a specific area. For more on this, read Shigehisa

Kuriyama's fine book, " The Expressiveness of the Body and the

Divergence of Greek and " from Zone Books.

 

To sum up, you have to take each system as an independent entity, and

study them within the context of that system in order to determine

efficacy.

>

> So then the question really is: Is pulse diagnosis

> really a valid method for diagnosis? Or are we just

> creating a diagnostic illusion for both ourselves as

> practitioners, and our patients?

 

It would be interesting to see thousands of physicians practicing an

illusory diagnostic method for a few thousand years throughout the

world. . .remember that pulse diagnosis was also prominant in Greco-

Arabic medicine and other systems as well, so it was a world-wide

phenomenon historically. From my own observations, I tend to doubt

that it is just illusion at work. This doesn't mean, however, that

there are not limitations to pulse diagnosis, depending on what one

is looking for and within what context.

 

 

>

> ..Infinite gratitude to all things past..

> ...Infinite respect to all things present...

> ....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

> .....Tao.....

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anton,

 

You bring up a good topic but one that requires to really close look at what

it is that we are doing. First, the classics mention palpation but not just

the pulse, it included other areas of the body as well (ie, abdomen,

channels, points, etc). To this I would very much agree and hope that

others take the time to do this as well.

 

Second is the idea about what the pulse means or tells us. A very sick

person can still have a somewhat normal pulse, how is that so? The classics

even mention this type of problem where the person and their pulse no longer

are in sync and suggest a poor prognosis.

 

The pulse is a measure of body substance and indicates its flow or lack

there of and can contain many variations on this theme. A pulse is quick to

change and only shows us something of a momentary snapshot in time. We all

can look at times when we want.

 

The pulse is important but not the whole of the person. We have had

discussions on this post about polypharmacy but I think that CM also has a

gift of poly-diagnostic ability where many things can be checked. In the

end, I have found that combining palpation with pulse, signs/symptoms makes

the most sense to treating the person and just a pulse type.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

>Anton Borja <its_antonborja

>

>

>Re: pulse diagonis

>Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:17:56 -0700 (PDT)

>

> The issue of the validity of pulse diagnosis is

>something I have been questioning over the past few

>months, since finding out a patient of mine was

>diagnosed with breast cancer.

>

>I started practicing pulse diagnosis while I was still

>in school on clients I was treating(as a bodyworker,

>yoga therapist). I figured, since as one of my

>instructors quoted, " It takes ten years to become a

>beginner in pulse diagnosis " I would get an early

>start. She was one of my early patients, and so I have

>been seeing this patient for close to seven years.

>Her pulse to my 'beginners' touch never seemed out of

>the ordinary from her usual slippery and occassional

>wiry quality pulse.

>

>I saw her last two months ago when she surprised me

>with cancer diagnosis. The ironic part is that she

>herself first noticed a lump in her breast(about a

>year ago) which she mentioned to her MD who sadly did

>not diagnose it then. It was a second visit a year

>later in which it was diagnosed by the MD. Now the

>patient is doing well with her chemo and integrative

>treatment(including herbs-from another more

>experienced practitioner), but it has really led me to

>doubt the validity of using pulse diagnosis.

>

>My biggest concern are patients who will assume a

>benign, not out of the ordinary pulse diagnsosis from

>one of us, will lead the patient to feel 'nothing is

>wrong with me' attitude, preventing a timely diagnosis

>of a serious health problem. Now as my story

>illustrates MDs can just as easily miss a diagnosis,

>but my point is more about the validity of the pulse

>as a diagnostic tool.

>

>The event which has most made me question pulse

>diagnosis was a conversation I had with a respected

>colleague(who many of you probably know) who had the

>opportunity to study TCM, Ayurvedic and Tibetan

>medicine. I asked him for his opinion on the use of

>pulse diagnosis, thinking his study of so many eastern

>meds. might enlighten my own understanding. He

>surprisingly said that he after studying the different

>meds no longer uses pulse diagnosis, except for very

>basic vital signs. The reason was that each medicine

>used different pulse locations to symbolize different

>organs, and that there was for the most part no

>correlation between the three practices. So a lung in

>tibetan med might be found on the left cun position,

>and maybe a differnt area for ayurvedic medicine.( I

>dont know the real positions-i am just illustrating a

>point.) So if the traditional medicines dont even

>correlate, there is no certainty of who ,if any of

>them, are right.

>

>So then the question really is: Is pulse diagnosis

>really a valid method for diagnosis? Or are we just

>creating a diagnostic illusion for both ourselves as

>practitioners, and our patients?

>

>..Infinite gratitude to all things past..

>...Infinite respect to all things present...

>....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

>.....Tao.....

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The issue of the validity of pulse diagnosis is

something I have been questioning over the past few

months, since finding out a patient of mine was

diagnosed with breast cancer.

>>>>>>At the same time you must realize it is needed when using CM. Were i have

a hard time is when a pulse reading is taken beyond CM images to physical

diagnosis were " real " pathologies may be described. No one has ever demonstrated

that they can do that with any consistency and reliability except within CM

group settings without any real control or any real objective gold standard. I

think it is dangerous and that is the only reason I brought up Michael who is a

great practitioner but one who also uses the pulse to a depth that I have a hard

time with.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I once attended a group diagnosis session sponsored by UCSD

medical school with a Tibetan physician, Lopsang Ropgay, who was

asked to diagnose a group of eighteen cancer patients. He was able

to tell, by pulse alone, what type of cancer they had, and was also

able to tell that one of the patients didn't have cancer, but was HIV

positive. It was quite an amazing event for all concerned, including

the M.D.'s.

>>>>>Was this published?

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This particular study was not published, I think, but a similar one

was at the University of Virginia Medical School with Yeshe Dhonden.

 

 

On Aug 8, 2005, at 2:12 PM, wrote:

 

> I once attended a group diagnosis session sponsored by UCSD

> medical school with a Tibetan physician, Lopsang Ropgay, who was

> asked to diagnose a group of eighteen cancer patients. He was able

> to tell, by pulse alone, what type of cancer they had, and was also

> able to tell that one of the patients didn't have cancer, but was HIV

> positive. It was quite an amazing event for all concerned, including

> the M.D.'s.

>

>>>>>> Was this published?

>>>>>>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

An interesting page about Dr. Dhonden,

http://www.jcrows.com/breastcancer.html

 

I've also emailed a Dr. Lopsang Ropgay who is a clinical physician at UCLA in

hopes he is

indeed the same or knows of the master pulse reader...

doug

 

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> This particular study was not published, I think, but a similar one

> was at the University of Virginia Medical School with Yeshe Dhonden.

>

>

> On Aug 8, 2005, at 2:12 PM, wrote:

>

> > I once attended a group diagnosis session sponsored by UCSD

> > medical school with a Tibetan physician, Lopsang Ropgay, who was

> > asked to diagnose a group of eighteen cancer patients. He was able

> > to tell, by pulse alone, what type of cancer they had, and was also

> > able to tell that one of the patients didn't have cancer, but was HIV

> > positive. It was quite an amazing event for all concerned, including

> > the M.D.'s.

> >

> >>>>>> Was this published?

> >>>>>>

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Virginia Medical School with Yeshe Dhonden

>>>>Zev do you know where?

I am aware of the CA study not a pulse study

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It has been written about in a few books, I'll try to look it up when

I get a few minutes.

 

Z'ev

On Aug 8, 2005, at 8:59 PM, wrote:

 

> Virginia Medical School with Yeshe Dhonden

>

>>>>> Zev do you know where?

>>>>>

> I am aware of the CA study not a pulse study

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anton,

 

I like and appreciate what Z'ev shared.

In the mean time, I want to chime in with my perspective and experience to see

if it helps.

 

I started reading my own and classmates' pulses in 1988 when started learning Qi

Gong but didn't really take pulse reading serious. About 10 years later, when I

started learning Tui Na from a different master, I started reading patients'

pulses in my master's clinic. " Serious " learning started when I went to an

acupuncture school in 1999. Well, I put " serious " in

quote because I was serious about it; the environment didn't necessarily

accommodate it. I then took private apprenticeship under a few well respected

doctors, including Dr. Ma, who is now 93 and still sees patients 5 days a week,

more than a dozen years " retired " from the only CM school in Taiwan at that

time.

 

Despite that fact that my teachers are serious about teaching me and I

appreciate their generosity (and that of the thousands of patients who I have

taken pulses of), and despite the fact that I have been able to detect serious

problems early, which lead to the confirmation of cancers by WM later, I would

still admit that I don't do pulse reading very well. On the other hand, I am

not discouraged, I use other diagnosing techniques to make it up, hoping that

one day, I will be able to sense a lot from pulse reading alone.

 

Mike L.

 

Anton Borja <its_antonborja wrote:

The issue of the validity of pulse diagnosis is

something I have been questioning over the past few

months, since finding out a patient of mine was

diagnosed with breast cancer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

Interesting article. Thanks for the link. I am now

completely interested in the urine analysis performed

by Dr. Dhonden. I am sure someone out there in the OM

community knows of or uses a similar diagnostic tool,

or there must be some literature out about it. Any

suggestions.??

 

Anton Borja

 

--- wrote:

 

> An interesting page about Dr. Dhonden,

> http://www.jcrows.com/breastcancer.html

>

> I've also emailed a Dr. Lopsang Ropgay who is a

> clinical physician at UCLA in hopes he is

> indeed the same or knows of the master pulse

> reader...

> doug

>

>

>

> , " Z'ev

> Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > This particular study was not published, I think,

> but a similar one

> > was at the University of Virginia Medical School

> with Yeshe Dhonden.

> >

> >

> > On Aug 8, 2005, at 2:12 PM, wrote:

> >

> > > I once attended a group diagnosis session

> sponsored by UCSD

> > > medical school with a Tibetan physician, Lopsang

> Ropgay, who was

> > > asked to diagnose a group of eighteen cancer

> patients. He was able

> > > to tell, by pulse alone, what type of cancer

> they had, and was also

> > > able to tell that one of the patients didn't

> have cancer, but was HIV

> > > positive. It was quite an amazing event for all

> concerned, including

> > > the M.D.'s.

> > >

> > >>>>>> Was this published?

> > >>>>>>

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

 

 

...Infinite gratitude to all things past..

....Infinite respect to all things present...

.....Infinite responsibility to all things future....

......Tao.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi members of CHA

I just wanted to make a few comments about pulse to see if anyone had any ideas

as to what is happening in what I describe below.

For the past four years at the college in Christchurch New Zealand I was asked

to teach the pulse. My classes were small, 9-12 people and it was run over a 8

week 3 hour per week term. For the first half of the class I went through theory

mainly using Flaws book on pulse and also using some overheads from Seiferts Li

Shi Zhen pulse book. I am teaching first year students. Then we would set up

tables and feel pulses of each other.

Now for 3 years in a row something very interesting has happened.

All the keen 1st year students would ask me what pulse is this ,is this a

wiry/bowstring pulse? etc.

I would take a pulse of a student and then come to a conclusion eg bowstring on

the left liver position, fine overall etc and say to a student " here ....feel a

bowstring pulse " . So about 3-4 studnets would feel the pulse and then the last

student would say " this does not feel bowstring " . Another student would feel

again and also say the pulse has changed.

Then I come back and yes , the pulse is no longer bowstring and all the pulses

have changed dramatically in a space of 15 minutes. Now, these students are not

practising any kind of qi gong , massage or anything to influence the status of

health of the patient. I know many acupuncture practitoners go by the rule that

the pulses must change during the needling in order to acertain that the

treatment is doing something.

I have suspected that even the intent of an acupuncture practitoner could

influence the pulse but what has happened here at college has ruled that out.

Do pulses just change with the ebb and flow of the day even after after 15

minutes? Are some acupuncture practitoners just concluding the wrong things

because the pulses have changed during a treatment? Does just touching someone

change the pulse?

Heiko

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maybe they changed due to the event and your announcement that this person

has a certain pulse.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

><heikolade.acnm

>

>

>Re: Re: pulse diagonis

>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:33 +1200

>

>Hi members of CHA

>I just wanted to make a few comments about pulse to see if anyone had any

>ideas as to what is happening in what I describe below.

>For the past four years at the college in Christchurch New Zealand I was

>asked to teach the pulse. My classes were small, 9-12 people and it was run

>over a 8 week 3 hour per week term. For the first half of the class I went

>through theory mainly using Flaws book on pulse and also using some

>overheads from Seiferts Li Shi Zhen pulse book. I am teaching first year

>students. Then we would set up tables and feel pulses of each other.

>Now for 3 years in a row something very interesting has happened.

>All the keen 1st year students would ask me what pulse is this ,is this a

>wiry/bowstring pulse? etc.

>I would take a pulse of a student and then come to a conclusion eg

>bowstring on the left liver position, fine overall etc and say to a student

> " here ....feel a bowstring pulse " . So about 3-4 studnets would feel the

>pulse and then the last student would say " this does not feel bowstring " .

>Another student would feel again and also say the pulse has changed.

>Then I come back and yes , the pulse is no longer bowstring and all the

>pulses have changed dramatically in a space of 15 minutes. Now, these

>students are not practising any kind of qi gong , massage or anything to

>influence the status of health of the patient. I know many acupuncture

>practitoners go by the rule that the pulses must change during the needling

>in order to acertain that the treatment is doing something.

>I have suspected that even the intent of an acupuncture practitoner could

>influence the pulse but what has happened here at college has ruled that

>out.

>Do pulses just change with the ebb and flow of the day even after after 15

>minutes? Are some acupuncture practitoners just concluding the wrong things

>because the pulses have changed during a treatment? Does just touching

>someone change the pulse?

>Heiko

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heiko

 

I have been teaching pulse to beginners for many years now. The changes in

a pulse that occur when several students feel the same pulse over a 15

minute time period can be marked. This also happens in a clinical setting

when several students feel one patients pulse. By the end, the pulse is

not the same as when it was first felt. I think that this is due to

several factors. Although the students are not practicing qi gong or

anything else, they are interacting with another person and, often because

they are students, they do not know how to manage the interaction of qi

between two people. - if enough people do that over enough time, the pulse

will change. Also, just the process of sitting for 15 minutes while

inexperienced students palpate the pulse can cause changes.

 

Would a pulse change over 15 minutes if you felt it at the beginning of

that time and again at the end with no other interactions. Probably not as

dramatically but somewhat. Just as a pulse will change - often

dramatically - after 15 - 20 minutes of treatment.

 

In general it is the finer points of the pulse that change - the individual

positions or the overall depth rather than the general quality of the pulse.

 

In Practical Diagnosis in TCM, one of the things that Deng Tie Tao stresses

is that while it is important to spend time getting all necessary

information from a patient, it is also important not to spend too much time

doing that. 15 miutes is too long to sit and have your pulse taken,

especially by too many people. With first year, beginning pulse students,

I always stress the basics: Rate, Depth, Force, Rhythm and Form. My

feeling is that most students - and many practitioners - spend too much

time looking for the intricate details of a pulse without paying attention

to the basics. They are looking for special qualities without knowing what

the general aspects of the pulse are first. It is important to remember

that rate, depth, force and rhythm are as important to feel and understand

as quality. If you look at page 98 -99 of Deng, you see that there are

actually only 5 pulses that fit into the category of abnormal form (what

many call quality). All of the other 23 pulses are classified according to

rate, depth, force or rhythm.

 

If the student first learns to assess these basic pulse ideas, feeling the

individual pulse positions becomes much easier and does not take as much

time.

 

So, when teaching, if I feel a stringlike pulse and I want students to feel

it - I will have them feel the pulse, but I will not let them spend a long

time searching out the quality. I always stress to them that pulses are

felt in the fingers, not in the mind or by the eyes. If they sit and stare

at the pulse, trying desperately to feel it, they usually won't. But if

they let their mind be in their fingertips, then they will feel pulses much

more quickly. I will often turn off the lights and have my students close

their eyes when they are taking a pulse and sometimes I will talk them

through the process of feeling rate, depth, force, rhythm and form - using

a somewhat meditative voice in order to take their mind away from feeling

and let their fingers feel.

 

However, as Bob Flaws has said over and over and over - if they cannot

describe, in specific language, the description of each of the 28 pulses,

they will not be able to feel them. How can you feel something, if you

cannot describe what it is you are supposed to feel? Students who can sit

down and write out the 28 pulses - ideally in category and with

descriptions - have a much easier time feeling and differentiating the 28

pulses.

 

Marnae

 

At 12:07 AM 8/11/2005, you wrote:

>Hi members of CHA

>I just wanted to make a few comments about pulse to see if anyone had any

>ideas as to what is happening in what I describe below.

>For the past four years at the college in Christchurch New Zealand I was

>asked to teach the pulse. My classes were small, 9-12 people and it was

>run over a 8 week 3 hour per week term. For the first half of the class I

>went through theory mainly using Flaws book on pulse and also using some

>overheads from Seiferts Li Shi Zhen pulse book. I am teaching first year

>students. Then we would set up tables and feel pulses of each other.

>Now for 3 years in a row something very interesting has happened.

>All the keen 1st year students would ask me what pulse is this ,is this a

>wiry/bowstring pulse? etc.

>I would take a pulse of a student and then come to a conclusion eg

>bowstring on the left liver position, fine overall etc and say to a

>student " here ....feel a bowstring pulse " . So about 3-4 studnets would

>feel the pulse and then the last student would say " this does not feel

>bowstring " . Another student would feel again and also say the pulse has

>changed.

>Then I come back and yes , the pulse is no longer bowstring and all the

>pulses have changed dramatically in a space of 15 minutes. Now, these

>students are not practising any kind of qi gong , massage or anything to

>influence the status of health of the patient. I know many acupuncture

>practitoners go by the rule that the pulses must change during the

>needling in order to acertain that the treatment is doing something.

>I have suspected that even the intent of an acupuncture practitoner could

>influence the pulse but what has happened here at college has ruled that out.

>Do pulses just change with the ebb and flow of the day even after after 15

>minutes? Are some acupuncture practitoners just concluding the wrong

>things because the pulses have changed during a treatment? Does just

>touching someone change the pulse?

>Heiko

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Are Thoresen

>

> I diagnose the animals (in 20 years), by having someone to touch them, and

> then read the change in the touching humans pulse.

> A story; I was pulsing a horse outside my home. The friend of the owner

> walked up and down the street. When he came closer to the horse, the

> SP-pulse of the horse decreased, when he went away, it was becoming

> stronger

> again. I said to the friend; you have a weak spleen. he told me that he

> had

> been in hospital for 14 days just for his weak spleen, and he was amazed

> that I could feel that on such a great distance.

 

Although I question that the spleen in western medicine is the same as

. More correct IMO is the pancreas, S.I. etc... I have

never found any evidence to support that the Chinese and Western spleen are

the same have you?

 

-Jason

 

 

>

>

> Heiko

>

>

> Are Simeon Thoresen

> arethore <arethore

> http://home.online.no/~arethore/

>

>

>

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting article.

>>>Does anyone knows what happened with the Dhonden study since the first phase?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Aug 10, 2005, at 9:07 PM, <heikolade.acnm

<heikolade.acnm wrote:

 

> Does just touching someone change the pulse?

 

I think so, especially if the " patient " is really starved for touch

or the student taking the pulse has a particularly calming (or the

opposite) spirit.

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...>

wrote:

>

> On Aug 10, 2005, at 9:07 PM, <heikolade.acnm@x...>

> <heikolade.acnm@x...> wrote:

>

> > Does just touching someone change the pulse?

 

Scroll down this page to look at the effects of touch on EEG and ECG

between two people. Interesting and fun to speculate on this studies

outcomes for pulse diagnosis.

 

http://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/soh_24.php

 

 

>

> I think so, especially if the " patient " is really starved for touch

 

> or the student taking the pulse has a particularly calming (or the

> opposite) spirit.

>

> --

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.