LED vs. Laser: Moxa frequency?

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

There are some array LED products being used successfully for diabetic

neuropathy now, which are basically large neoprene pads embedded with 20-50

or so super bright LEDs. I think we need to think about two aspects here,

there is coherence, which, barring some miracle of refraction, is going to

be lost within 1-2mm of the surface, and wavelength, which will stay

consistent regardless. It seems to me that wavelength is going to be the

primary factor in therapeutic effect, and IR and red seem to work best. It

seems to me that if visible or near visible light coherence is going to be a

factor in penetration we would be dealing with much more regular surfaces

and the amount of movement in any sort of clinical situation would not allow

for the short wavelength to have any significant cumulative effect in terms

of amplitude. There is also some ideas out there about pulse frequency

which gets into more macro-wave issues a la Manaka hammer, etc.

 

http://www.omnilightled.com/

These guys make led array products and have a variety of heartwarming

testimonials.

 

http://www.ledresearch.net/

This may be sponsored by the above, but goes above consumer grade info.

 

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/pho.2005.23.167;jsessionid=jxXxviVf\

E7c6?cookieSet=1 & journalCode=pho

Interestingly this was green diodes causing increate in fibroblast

proliferation, perhaps we could get a 5 element model going...

 

 

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/pho.2005.23.268?journalCode=pho

red and IR effects on baby chickens wound healing & c.

 

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089%2F104454701753342758

This is on would healing with LED and hyperbaric oxygen (which would

probably be a little pricey to set up in the clinic!)

 

 

Additionally, superbright LEDs are super cheap, so if it comes down to jules

per tx minute you will get much more value with a multi-source array than a

one source laser, especially for relatively topical issues (if there is any

substantial difference in penetration). The products available from the

above supplier are fairly easy to hack at home (for someone with a little

electronics training) for about 1/20th the price. Laser diode regulation

circuits are very difficult to manage and fragile, obliging a much higher

skill level in manufacture and a higher failure rate, though I'm told by a

technician friend that once they settle in they tend to keep working. Laser

output is rarely 100% of the advertised wattage due to regulation circuit

issues that go a bit over my head.

 

 

On a related note:

Is there anything to the idea of moxa having a specific " wavelength " in it's

heating effect, I've heard this from a variety of normally sober people, but

never seen it written down anyplace...

 

Par Scott, MAOM, Lic Ac

19 Belmont St

Cambridge MA 02138

[Guest guest]

There are some array LED products being used successfully for diabetic

neuropathy now, which are basically large neoprene pads embedded with 20-50

or so super bright LEDs.

>>>>>>One of our cluster LED has 80 LEDs per 1 cm square,another we use has

300LEDs in a 2 by 3 cm array they give very high light density and because we

can have much higher powers as well we should easily get the same effective

penetration as lasers. Also remember you can culminate LEDs as well, there are

many lenses out there that can do that. But again, and I am trying to get him on

the discussion group, according to Bales his work at NASA shows no difference in

penetration, its all relevant to power and wave length. Just take a regular

flash light, its light also penetrates if it is bright it will go through the

thickness of your arm. The study I saw on the other discussion group comparing

the LED to laser penetration used an imbedded detector specific to a wave

length. They used a laser with that wave length but the LED's peak was not at

that wave length and then they come out and say the detector did not pick up as

much from the LED as the laser. Who are they kidding here. You must compare same

power and same peak wave. Remember even the semiconductor lasers have a small

range of waves. They are not a single wave length. The difference is around 4nm

for lasers and 20 or so for some LEDs.Also i believe i wrote before that light

looses 1000th the power for every mm it should have been for every cm.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Forgive my ignorance but, can you tell me if there are any regulations regarding

using lasers in relation to our professional license? Any additoinal

certification(s) required?

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

There are some array LED products being used successfully for diabetic

neuropathy now, which are basically large neoprene pads embedded with 20-50

or so super bright LEDs.

>>>>>>One of our cluster LED has 80 LEDs per 1 cm square,another we use has

300LEDs in a 2 by 3 cm array they give very high light density and because we

can have much higher powers as well we should easily get the same effective

penetration as lasers. Also remember you can culminate LEDs as well, there are

many lenses out there that can do that. But again, and I am trying to get him on

the discussion group, according to Bales his work at NASA shows no difference in

penetration, its all relevant to power and wave length. Just take a regular

flash light, its light also penetrates if it is bright it will go through the

thickness of your arm. The study I saw on the other discussion group comparing

the LED to laser penetration used an imbedded detector specific to a wave

length. They used a laser with that wave length but the LED's peak was not at

that wave length and then they come out and say the detector did not pick up as

much from the LED as the laser. Who are they kidding here. You

must compare same power and same peak wave. Remember even the semiconductor

lasers have a small range of waves. They are not a single wave length. The

difference is around 4nm for lasers and 20 or so for some LEDs.Also i believe i

wrote before that light looses 1000th the power for every mm it should have been

for every cm.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Forgive my ignorance but, can you tell me if there are any regulations regarding

using lasers in relation to our professional license? Any additoinal

certification(s) required?

>>>>This depends on the state. I general you need to take out an IRB to use

lasers, also now they are starting to get approved for pain so you may not.

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609