Guest guest Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 Can we at least describe outward manifestations of a toxic liver so we can put it on the TCM map somewhere? Is this only discernible through the Great Smokies lab? On Sep 12, 2005, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > > > >> >> >> On Behalf Of Al Stone, >> L.Ac. >> Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM >> >> Re: liver detox formula >> >> >> On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: >> >> >>> Since CM really has no liver >>> detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. >>> >> >> I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk >> about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit >> difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs >> described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, >> but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with >> " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? >> >> > > I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western > concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I > do think > there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one > say aid > in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent > unnecessary > creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut > dysbiosis)... I > also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this > need, know > very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the > modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk > thistle' - But I > would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in > this > process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a > different > way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not > merge. > > - > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 Wouldn't a " toxic " liver manifest as yellow eyes? Teresa Hall, L.Ac, M.S, Q.M.E. 619-517-1188 - " " <al Monday, September 12, 2005 7:39 PM Re: liver detox formula > Can we at least describe outward manifestations of a toxic liver so > we can put it on the TCM map somewhere? Is this only discernible > through the Great Smokies lab? > > On Sep 12, 2005, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> On Behalf Of Al Stone, >>> L.Ac. >>> Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM >>> >>> Re: liver detox formula >>> >>> >>> On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Since CM really has no liver >>>> detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. >>>> >>> >>> I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk >>> about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit >>> difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs >>> described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, >>> but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with >>> " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? >>> >>> >> >> I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western >> concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I >> do think >> there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one >> say aid >> in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent >> unnecessary >> creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut >> dysbiosis)... I >> also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this >> need, know >> very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the >> modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk >> thistle' - But I >> would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in >> this >> process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a >> different >> way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not >> merge. >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of > Monday, September 12, 2005 8:40 PM > > Re: liver detox formula > > Can we at least describe outward manifestations of a toxic liver so > we can put it on the TCM map somewhere? Is this only discernible > through the Great Smokies lab? Al, I am not sure you can do what you ask - CM and Functional medicine view things much differently. There is not a direct correlation. The results of Liver detoxification imbalances are far reaching, and can result in a large constellation of s/s depending on other imbalances in the body, body constitution etc.. Basic mechanisms affected are: 1. Hormone regulation (2-OH to 16-OH ratio of estrogens & Estrogen quotient (E3:E1+E2 ration) 2. a decreases in activation of B vitamins to their coenzyme form - which of course can cause a whole host of metabolic problems 3. buffering of cellular redox (electron poising) As you can see these type of problems can produce many many patterns (outward signs and symptoms)- 1 dysfunction (pattern) can lead to 100 diseases. As far as Teresa's idea that you will see yellow in the eyes, is not true in the majority of cases. One way that people test liver detoxification ability aside from labs like Great Smokies is by a caffeine challenge test; I am currently skeptical of this. Hope this helps, - > On Sep 12, 2005, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> On Behalf Of Al Stone, > >> L.Ac. > >> Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM > >> > >> Re: liver detox formula > >> > >> > >> On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Since CM really has no liver > >>> detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > >>> > >> > >> I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > >> about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > >> difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > >> described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > >> but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > >> " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > >> > >> > > > > I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western > > concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I > > do think > > there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one > > say aid > > in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent > > unnecessary > > creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut > > dysbiosis)... I > > also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this > > need, know > > very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the > > modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk > > thistle' - But I > > would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in > > this > > process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a > > different > > way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not > > merge. > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 I agree. The term " liver detox " , because it's so general, is not only hard to equate with a TCM function but western functions as well. Because the liver is so complex, is a detox modulating phase 1 and/or 2 pathways, promoting bile excretion, increasing liver blood flow, affecting enzyme activity, or all of these? Like Jason, I would assume that Chinese herbs like Bai Shao, Chai Hu and others would affect the Liver in one of these ways and with some quick investigations I found: Yin Chen Hao, Long Dan Cao are choleretics (promote bile flow) Wu Wei Zi, Gou Qi Zi, Nu Zhen Zi hepatoprotective (Recent advances in Chinese Herbal Drugs book) Dan Shen removes liver scarring (C. Hobbs Natural Liver Therapy book) Ling Zhi is used chronic liver diseases, hepatitis, cirrhosis (Chen book) and has hepatoprotective actions. Jiang Huang and Da Suan (garlic) can promote phase 2 detox. It seems to me that people like to do liver cleanses for more subjective reasons rather than the outcome clinical testing: - Some have had a history of drug/alcohol abuse or poor dietary habits - Trying to pass a urine drug test - Others have some stubborn health issue and try a " liver detox " as part of their search for wellness. - For health maintenance many people do spring fasts or cleanses. Hmm, it's liver/ gallbladder season too, how nice -Danny Johnson L.Ac. , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Al Stone, L.Ac. > > Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM > > > > Re: liver detox formula > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > > > Since CM really has no liver > > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > > > > I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > > about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > > difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > > described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > > but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > > > > I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western > concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I do think > there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one say aid > in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent unnecessary > creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut dysbiosis)... I > also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this need, know > very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the > modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk thistle' - But I > would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in this > process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a different > way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not > merge. > > - Liver flush - drinking olive oil and other ingredients such as crushed garlic and ginger, lemon juice and others. Causing bile and toxins to be discharged. I've always loosely equated a " toxic liver " in western herbalism to an excess syndrome in TCM such as Qi or Blood, stagnation, Heat and Toxins, Damp Heat.... , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of > > Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM > > > > Re: liver detox formula > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > > > Since CM really has no liver > > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > > > > I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > > about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > > difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > > described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > > but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > > > > I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western > concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I do think > there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one say aid > in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent unnecessary > creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut dysbiosis)... I > also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this need, know > very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the > modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk thistle' - But I > would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in this > process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a different > way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not > merge. > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 I agree with Al - several of you have said what you would do - but why? What are the presenting s/sx that would lead you to believe a liver needs to be " detoxed? " Again - what are the CM patterns? Marnae At 09:02 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > Since CM really has no liver > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > >I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk >about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit >difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs >described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, >but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > >-- > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 With all the questions regarding how to see liver detox in TCM theory, I think you all need to look outside of the box and not be so tunnel vison. I believe that before any of you can form an opinion, you need to study this from a different perspective and not try to understand this in TCM terms until you have a solid understanding of functional medicine and clinical nutrition. Brian N Hardy Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote: I agree with Al - several of you have said what you would do - but why? What are the presenting s/sx that would lead you to believe a liver needs to be " detoxed? " Again - what are the CM patterns? Marnae At 09:02 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > Since CM really has no liver > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > >I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk >about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit >difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs >described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, >but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > >-- > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 On Sep 13, 2005, at 10:21 AM, Danny Johnson wrote: The idea that there is something dirty inside of you that can be cleaned is a very attractive idea in the holistic marketplace. I think that many people do liver and colon cleanses because of the idea rather than any real need. > It seems to me that people like to do liver cleanses for more > subjective reasons rather than > the outcome clinical testing: > - Some have had a history of drug/alcohol abuse or poor dietary habits > - Trying to pass a urine drug test > - Others have some stubborn health issue and try a " liver detox " as > part of their search for > wellness. > - For health maintenance many people do spring fasts or cleanses. > Hmm, it's liver/ > gallbladder season too, how nice -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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