Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Would a " liver detox program " be useful for a patient with a history of gallbladder stones and recurrent acute pancreatitis? She has had her gallbladder removed, and still produces stones, now in her liver. They get caught in the common bile duct and cause acute pancreatitis. Recent tests reveal " fatty infiltrate " surrounding her liver and pancreas. Does anyone know what " fatty infiltrate " is and whether this can be helped with a " liver cleanse " ? Danny Johnson <danny wrote: I agree. The term " liver detox " , because it's so general, is not only hard to equate with a TCM function but western functions as well. Because the liver is so complex, is a detox modulating phase 1 and/or 2 pathways, promoting bile excretion, increasing liver blood flow, affecting enzyme activity, or all of these? Like Jason, I would assume that Chinese herbs like Bai Shao, Chai Hu and others would affect the Liver in one of these ways and with some quick investigations I found: Yin Chen Hao, Long Dan Cao are choleretics (promote bile flow) Wu Wei Zi, Gou Qi Zi, Nu Zhen Zi hepatoprotective (Recent advances in Chinese Herbal Drugs book) Dan Shen removes liver scarring (C. Hobbs Natural Liver Therapy book) Ling Zhi is used chronic liver diseases, hepatitis, cirrhosis (Chen book) and has hepatoprotective actions. Jiang Huang and Da Suan (garlic) can promote phase 2 detox. It seems to me that people like to do liver cleanses for more subjective reasons rather than the outcome clinical testing: - Some have had a history of drug/alcohol abuse or poor dietary habits - Trying to pass a urine drug test - Others have some stubborn health issue and try a " liver detox " as part of their search for wellness. - For health maintenance many people do spring fasts or cleanses. Hmm, it's liver/ gallbladder season too, how nice -Danny Johnson L.Ac. , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Al Stone, L.Ac. > > Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM > > > > Re: liver detox formula > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > > > Since CM really has no liver > > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > > > > I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > > about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > > difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > > described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > > but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > > > > I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western > concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I do think > there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one say aid > in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent unnecessary > creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut dysbiosis)... I > also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this need, know > very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the > modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk thistle' - But I > would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in this > process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a different > way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not > merge. > > - Liver flush - drinking olive oil and other ingredients such as crushed garlic and ginger, lemon juice and others. Causing bile and toxins to be discharged. I've always loosely equated a " toxic liver " in western herbalism to an excess syndrome in TCM such as Qi or Blood, stagnation, Heat and Toxins, Damp Heat.... , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of > > Monday, September 12, 2005 7:02 PM > > > > Re: liver detox formula > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > > > Since CM really has no liver > > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > > > > I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > > about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > > difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > > described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > > but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > > > > I do agree that there is not a strong relationship between the western > concept of detoxification and CM's 'toxin' or 'toxic heat'. But I do think > there is a need to detoxify the liver in many people or should one say aid > in its ability to detox (via phase I & II) as well as prevent unnecessary > creation of toxins that the liver must handle (i.e. from gut dysbiosis)... I > also think that most of the practitioners that squawk about this need, know > very little of what they are talking about, and are just parroting the > modern lingo (detox detox detox) and thinking hmhmm.. 'milk thistle' - But I > would image herbs like bai shao and chai hu will be shown to aid in this > process, but it is so hard to say without research. It is just a different > way of viewing the body. I see no reason that these 2 worlds will not > merge. > > - Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 On Sep 14, 2005, at 12:40 PM, wrote: > Would a " liver detox program " be useful for a patient with a history > of gallbladder stones and recurrent acute pancreatitis? She has had > her gallbladder removed, and still produces stones, now in her liver. > They get caught in the common bile duct and cause acute pancreatitis. > Recent tests reveal " fatty infiltrate " surrounding her liver and > pancreas. Does anyone know what " fatty infiltrate " is and whether > this can be helped with a " liver cleanse " ? -- I don't know the answer to your question, but this condition would almost certainly be helped by Chinese medicine. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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