Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Alon, I think that is reasonable. Also, even amongst those who adhere to the ideas Dr. Shen formulated, the inevitable and important process is to use them, test them, and abandon the ones that do not work. To borrow from traditional Islamic terminology, there is blameworthy innovation and beneficial innovation. In this case, I strive to implement what i understand of Dr. Shen's beneficial innovations. Dr. Hammer has made a great contribution in freely sharing the fruits of his association with Dr. Shen in the most egalitarian manner. One definition of science is " knowledge severely tested, " and certainly with regard to the pulse as well as any innovative concepts promulgated by Dr. Shen the testing is ongoing and open to anyone. -Brandt Stickley PS Alon, I love your new book. I expect to read it cover-to-cover (and test it out!) , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > using terms > without Chinese or pinyin equivalents will make it rough going in > understanding what teachers like Dr. Shen were trying to present. > > >>>>>> > From what i understand Dr shen needed new terms that were not related to standard CM and for which pin yin may not be available > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 PS Alon, I love your new book. I expect to read it cover-to-cover (and test it out!) >>>>> Please give me feedback thanks Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 I have Dr. Hammer's pulse book, and respect his work very much. However, my original point remains. We communicate via language primarily, and although skills may be transmitted through oral teaching and experience, the only way to communicate those skills to a wider audience than a handful of students is accurate translation, terminology, and a seamless connection between English and Chinese. Terms such as 'blood unclear', 'qi wild' and 'cotton pulse' do not, in my opinion, accurately represent the pulse images being presented in the text. On Sep 15, 2005, at 7:47 PM, Brandt Stickley wrote: > Alon, > I think that is reasonable. Also, even amongst those who adhere to > the ideas Dr. Shen > formulated, the inevitable and important process is to use them, > test them, and abandon > the ones that do not work. To borrow from traditional Islamic > terminology, there is > blameworthy innovation and beneficial innovation. In this case, I > strive to implement what > i understand of Dr. Shen's beneficial innovations. Dr. Hammer has > made a great > contribution in freely sharing the fruits of his association with > Dr. Shen in the most > egalitarian manner. One definition of science is " knowledge > severely tested, " and certainly > with regard to the pulse as well as any innovative concepts > promulgated by Dr. Shen the > testing is ongoing and open to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 the only way to communicate those skills to a wider audience than a handful of students is accurate translation, terminology, and a seamless connection between English and Chinese >>>>> Its not your opinion that is important here but dr shen teaching is. While i never studied with him i have taken one of hammer's classes and have talked to some of shen's students. It sounds to me like he felt that CM in its " chinese " presentations did not apply to his western patients and that he felt he needed some totally new ideas. If true, this has nothing to do with translation terms and the terminology we are used to and debate in this form.To dogmatically enslave one to this terminology may result in totally missing his teachings. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 You missed the point completely Alon judging by your response. It has nothing to do with Wiseman terminology, it has to do with accurately conveying your ideas in a language that is not your native tongue without good translators. I have no need to continue this thread. On Sep 15, 2005, at 10:14 PM, wrote: > Its not your opinion that is important here but dr shen teaching > is. While i never studied with him i have taken one of hammer's > classes and have talked to some of shen's students. It sounds to me > like he felt that CM in its " chinese " presentations did not apply > to his western patients and that he felt he needed some totally new > ideas. If true, this has nothing to do with translation terms and > the terminology we are used to and debate in this form.To > dogmatically enslave one to this terminology may result in totally > missing his teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 it has to do with accurately conveying your ideas in a language >>>> I see, that can make for some difficulties but which i would think people like Giovanni have overcame Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 My last comment on the issue is that in medicine, skills need to be embodied not just communicated. One of the strengths of the system taught by Dr. Hammer is that the terminology is based quite clearly on sensation. I agree with your points regarding Chinese language generally, but this is a skill that cannot be only communicated via words. Every pulse quality is a communication, and a hypothesis. Each can be tested via the other pillars of diagnosis and the patient's lived experience. Sincerely, Brandt , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I have Dr. Hammer's pulse book, and respect his work very much. > However, my original point remains. We communicate via language > primarily, and although skills may be transmitted through oral > teaching and experience, the only way to communicate those skills to > a wider audience than a handful of students is accurate translation, > terminology, and a seamless connection between English and Chinese. > Terms such as 'blood unclear', 'qi wild' and 'cotton pulse' do not, > in my opinion, accurately represent the pulse images being presented > in the text. > > > On Sep 15, 2005, at 7:47 PM, Brandt Stickley wrote: > > > Alon, > > I think that is reasonable. Also, even amongst those who adhere to > > the ideas Dr. Shen > > formulated, the inevitable and important process is to use them, > > test them, and abandon > > the ones that do not work. To borrow from traditional Islamic > > terminology, there is > > blameworthy innovation and beneficial innovation. In this case, I > > strive to implement what > > i understand of Dr. Shen's beneficial innovations. Dr. Hammer has > > made a great > > contribution in freely sharing the fruits of his association with > > Dr. Shen in the most > > egalitarian manner. One definition of science is " knowledge > > severely tested, " and certainly > > with regard to the pulse as well as any innovative concepts > > promulgated by Dr. Shen the > > testing is ongoing and open to anyone. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Agreed. On Sep 16, 2005, at 4:15 AM, Brandt Stickley wrote: > My last comment on the issue is that in medicine, skills need to be > embodied not just > communicated. One of the strengths of the system taught by Dr. > Hammer is that the > terminology is based quite clearly on sensation. I agree with your > points regarding > Chinese language generally, but this is a skill that cannot be only > communicated via > words. Every pulse quality is a communication, and a hypothesis. > Each can be tested via > the other pillars of diagnosis and the patient's lived experience. > > Sincerely, > Brandt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of > Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:25 PM > > Re: SV: liver detox formula/Shen > > I have Dr. Hammer's pulse book, and respect his work very much. > However, my original point remains. We communicate via language > primarily, and although skills may be transmitted through oral > teaching and experience, the only way to communicate those skills to > a wider audience than a handful of students is accurate translation, > terminology, and a seamless connection between English and Chinese. > Terms such as 'blood unclear', 'qi wild' and 'cotton pulse' do not, > in my opinion, accurately represent the pulse images being presented > in the text. > Z'ev, I am curious what terms he should have used? Are there direct equivalents to basic Chinese pulses? I personally see no problem with using a term like 'cotton pulse' if in the text it is defined. The cotton pulse is adequately defined by Hammer, IMO, and is not meant to be a stand-alone term. Hammer also explicitly says that the cotton pulse is not described in other texts, therefore the need to create a new pulse title. Of course if the term is used without a definition one is left up to one's imagination and will probably be wrong. Really who cares what he calls the pulse as long as there is definition and explanation, which there is. I agree terminology is important, but in this case the accuracy of transmission seems intact. The problem for me is one can't learn this kind of pulse system from a book, so it is useless without a teacher. I am just curious what you feel was inaccurately translated since you also studied with Dr. Shen. Or did I miss your point? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Jason, We had a long discussion on this topic a few years ago which should be in the CHA archive, mostly between myself and Rory Kerr, who worked with Dr. Hammer and had some of the same concerns about terminology as I did, if my memory serves me well. Dr. Hammer and I also both wrote articles that were published in the Clinical Journal of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine a few years back. All I want to say right now is that I still recommend the book despite my concerns, and agree that pulse diagnosis also involves transmission by experience and practice as well as textual. On Sep 16, 2005, at 11:07 AM, wrote: > > Z'ev, > > I am curious what terms he should have used? Are there direct > equivalents > to basic Chinese pulses? I personally see no problem with using a > term like > 'cotton pulse' if in the text it is defined. The cotton pulse is > adequately > defined by Hammer, IMO, and is not meant to be a stand-alone term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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