RE: SV: liver detox formula - Functional Medicine

[Guest guest]

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> On Behalf Of Rory Kerr

> Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:59 PM

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> Re: SV: liver detox formula

>

> On Sep 13, 2005, at 10:12 PM, wrote:

> > Its a little like TCM, there is a so called ideal balance and therefor

> > always stuff to do.

> --

>

> Alon, I have to disagree with you here. In Chinese medicine the pattern

> is defined by symptoms experienced by the patient, so there is a direct

> connection between the symptoms and the diagnosis. In the case of liver

> toxicity, as it has been talked about in this discussion, there is no

> such direct connection demonstrated between the symptoms experienced,

> or a specific disease, and the lab values indicating liver toxicity.

 

There are clearly lab values, but not a specific disease. See below.

 

At

> least, no-one has responded to my request for a study showing a

> connection.

>

> When you say that TCM is guilty of always having something to do, that

> is true to the extent that very often TCM can help relieve symptoms

> even if it cannot cure the disease causing the symptoms. It therefore

> seems justified to offer that sort of help. Of course, you are right to

> suggest that this is sloppy practice if it not made clear to the

> patient, but most people are happy to get any help they can get with

> difficult symptoms, and TCM is good at providing that sort of help. In

> addition it very often does improve the outcome of a disease. And, of

> course, there are many " functional " and chronic disorders that are very

> well treated by CM; better in many cases than with Western medicine.

>

> It may well be that doing liver detox is helpful to patients, yet it is

> not clear that this is so; and being so disconnected from the direct

> experience by the patient of his or her disorder, is rather difficult

> to evaluate when being used as a treatment for a specific condition.

 

It is not that difficult. Let's say the patient complains of X and has

symptoms of XYZ.... You determine that the problem is an upregulation of

phase I enzymes (over-stimulated) and Phase II is either deficient or just

overwhelmed.

 

You supply more phase II nutrients and decrease factors overwhelming phase

I. (or whatever you like to do.) You are not disconnected, you simply ask

the patient are your s/s getting better. IF not maybe there is another

issue that is causing the problem. Just as Chinese medicine has many

interrelationships, so does functional medicine. Actually the systems have

many similarities. For example, the liver toxicity issue may just be coming

from a simple gut dysbiosis. One must weed through the relationships and

determine what the primary cause is. It is not as simple as x=y and the

symptoms will go away. This method has surely has worked for plenty of

people already. I am not talking about some liver / gb new age health food

flush. There are two types of medicine here: 1) a functional medicine

(scientific) approach, and 2) the health food layman liver cleanse

protocols.

 

Furthermore, you can think of 'liver toxicity' or imbalance of phase I & II

systems, like the concept of Phlegm. Not that it relates specifically to

phlegm, but the way that Chinese medicine conceptualizes phlegm. For

example, phlegm can cause 100 diseases, so can liver toxicity. It is

problem and etiology.

 

But one would be correct to say that, diagnosing such an issue, does not

rely strictly on the signs and symptoms. I think as mentioned before there

are questionnaires and profiles, some more lay than others, which can point

one in the direction of such an imbalance. No different than asking

questions in Chinese medicine. Furthermore, it does rely on modern

technological developments and understanding of the body, for better or

worse, to officially diagnose a problem. Functional medicine, and

specifically our discussion here about the liver, is also similar to CM in

that it does not correlate one specific disease with one biological finding.

It is somewhat murky, like the concept of phlegm. I would think that people

on this list would be comfortable with this idea.

To ask for what signs and symptoms are related to liver toxicity is like

asking what disease relates to phlegm. Want a long list?

 

Finally, Why do we always assume that everything has to fit into the Chinese

medical world view? Just as I tell my students in class 1 (CM language),

one should not try to fit CM into a Western world view, but try to see how

the Chinese are viewing reality, medicine etc, from their perspective. The

medical systems (as well as thought) are clearly different and will yield

different patterns, approaches, and diseases. The put CM into a strictly

western view will miss intricacies of CM thought process (look at DK

Kendall) The same can be said about functional medicine and Chinese

medicine. To fit functional medicine inside the box of Chinese medicine is

doing it a disservice. Although many times there is overlap and this should

be noted, many times there is not.

 

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