The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

September 27, 2005

Jason,

All I mean is that CM seems to be seeing bodies as essentially energy vortices,

as qi (and I know qi and energy are not necessarily the same, but I am speaking

broadly here). Matter = energy and light. WM focuses on the matter. CM focuses

on the energy/light. Nothing mysterious.

Joseph

wrote:

>

> On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> Monday, September 26, 2005 9:08 PM

>

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Alon,

> Of course they're different, but not because of allopathy. Chinese

> medicine is based on an allopathic model--heat treats cold, cold treats

> heat, etc. Reckeweg's training in physiology was no doubt based on the

> Western science model of matter orientation to the body. Chinese medicine

> uses an energetic orientation.

What does that mean? Energetic oreitntation???

-

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

September 27, 2005

Jason,

This may be the case. To me, each model stands alone as a set of brilliant

insights and does not need credibility from anywhere else. To me, they

serendipitously inform and enhance each other, at least to some extent, and I

think learning is available here, and valuable. Because someone else may be

trying to force a point does not mean there aren't good ones to be made.

Joseph

wrote:

>

> On Behalf Of

> Monday, September 26, 2005 9:14 AM

>

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Joseph

> highly developed in their own ways.

> >>>>>

> That is the key here.I have talked to Miki at length on this having quite

> a few lunches devoted to the subject. There are some similarities

> especially in the first 2 stages but these are quite limited.Homotox is

> based on allopathic medicine and physiology and therefor different.

I found that also to be true. I felt they were forcing the homo-tox model

into the SHL to give it some credibility.

-

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

September 27, 2005

Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as did

the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels.

Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants were

tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and its

change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for the

person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

>>>>>>Mike i am aware of all this info, I just wanted to know what he means when

he says vibration and quantum. Hay noone understood better than the chinese the

meanings of cycles

Oakland, CA 94609

September 27, 2005

This changes the whole perspective as to how things can affect one another and

what is possible with treatments. Vibratory perspective reveals how homeopathics

can work, how acupuncture can work, what energetics are, and so on.

>>>>>>

Can you elaborate

thanks

Oakland, CA 94609

September 27, 2005

Alon,

At this time I choose not to. Let's not get sidetracked. I will come back to

this point, though. I have some rather far-reaching points to make, but not now.

Perhaps you and I should conduct some strands of this conversation just between

us so as not to weary the forum?

Joseph

<alonmarcus wrote:

This changes the whole perspective as to how things can affect one another and

what is possible with treatments. Vibratory perspective reveals how homeopathics

can work, how acupuncture can work, what energetics are, and so on.

>>>>>>

Can you elaborate

thanks

Oakland, CA 94609

September 27, 2005

but not now. Perhaps you and I should conduct some strands of this conversation

just between us so as not to weary the forum?

>>>>

That would be fine just email me

Oakland, CA 94609

September 28, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:09 PM

>

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Alon,

>

> Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as did

> the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels.

> Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants were

> tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and its

> change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for the

> person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

That is nice, but far from evidence that supports 'vibration rates is at the

core of what OM'

-

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " " <alonmarcus

> >

> >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> >

> >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > >>>>>

> >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

> specific

> >meanings.

> >

> >Oakland, CA 94609

> >

September 28, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:26 PM

>

> RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Jason,

> All I mean is that CM seems to be seeing bodies as essentially energy

> vortices, as qi (and I know qi and energy are not necessarily the same,

> but I am speaking broadly here). Matter = energy and light. WM focuses on

> the matter. CM focuses on the energy/light. Nothing mysterious.

> Joseph

>

Joseph,

I do not question your perception that we are essentially energy, but can we

really say that CM sees the body as energy vortices?? Like I said

previously, I don't find this when I read Chinese nor have any of my Chinese

teachers spoke in this manner. But, there is obviously some middle ground

to what the Chinese originally believed (i.e. circua Neijing and beyond) in

regard to a material or energetic approach. I just have a hard time

accepting that CM, at least for some time (or maybe forever), embraces many

of these energetic newage concepts/

-

> wrote:

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> > Monday, September 26, 2005 9:08 PM

> >

> > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >

> > Alon,

> > Of course they're different, but not because of allopathy. Chinese

> > medicine is based on an allopathic model--heat treats cold, cold treats

> > heat, etc. Reckeweg's training in physiology was no doubt based on the

> > Western science model of matter orientation to the body. Chinese

> medicine

> > uses an energetic orientation.

>

> What does that mean? Energetic oreitntation???

>

> -

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

September 28, 2005

Are you not taking a pulse or manipulating needles?

Both of these are connected with vibration and important to acu/herbs, etc.

Foods, colors and most other things in the so called physical world are made

or exhibit vibratory rates. Some more slowly than others.

In physics, they call this the wave vs particle side of duality.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " "

>

>RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:29:46 -0600

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:09 PM

> >

> > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >

> > Alon,

> >

> > Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as

>did

> > the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels.

> > Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants were

> > tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and its

> > change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for the

> > person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

>

>That is nice, but far from evidence that supports 'vibration rates is at

>the

>core of what OM'

>

>-

>

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> > > " " <alonmarcus

> > >

> > >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> > >

> > >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > > >>>>>

> > >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

> > specific

> > >meanings.

> > >

> > >Oakland, CA 94609

> > >

September 28, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:09 AM

>

> RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Are you not taking a pulse or manipulating needles?

>

> Both of these are connected with vibration and important to acu/herbs,

etc.

> Foods, colors and most other things in the so called physical world are

> made

> or exhibit vibratory rates. Some more slowly than others.

>

> In physics, they call this the wave vs particle side of duality.

Like I said you can all it what you want, everyone has different views. Look

at D.E. Kendall - He would surely disagree with you. My point is that the

Chinese sources I have read and my Chinese teachers do not support your

assumptions. If you have some sources I would like to see it. The way you

present things just seems more newagey than what I have learned from the

Chinese sources. But I am not saying it is not true, that is yet to be

decided.

-

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " "

> >

> >RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:29:46 -0600

> >

> > >

> > > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > > Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:09 PM

> > >

> > > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > >

> > > Alon,

> > >

> > > Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as

> >did

> > > the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the

channels.

> > > Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants

> were

> > > tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and

> its

> > > change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for

> the

> > > person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

> >

> >That is nice, but far from evidence that supports 'vibration rates is at

> >the

> >core of what OM'

> >

> >-

> >

> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > >

> > > > " " <alonmarcus

> > > >

> > > >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> > > >

> > > >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > > > >>>>>

> > > >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

> > > specific

> > > >meanings.

> > > >

> > > >Oakland, CA 94609

> > > >

September 28, 2005

I apologize for making such an assumption as I thought we were all more or

less on the same page with physics and other concepts. I think we can

hopefully agree that all matter has frequency or vibrations as this is a

fundamental principle in our world.

As I understand it, the theory that we are a reflection of the greater

universe (macrocosm-microcosm) means just this. Some, like Deke, and others

want to limit theory and treatment only to what occurs in the microcosm yet

I can say that when weather turns bad or is about to, it sure helps keep

healthy if you make some changes to remain well. If your sources are more

recent (post 1949), then I would expect a complete sanitization of certain

ideas. I would be interested in hearing how your mentors dealt with

concepts of the universe, yin-yang, etc. As for Deke, I think we should

leave him and his nerve/blood vessel view for another post.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " "

>

>RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:06:15 -0600

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:09 AM

> >

> > RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >

> > Are you not taking a pulse or manipulating needles?

> >

> > Both of these are connected with vibration and important to acu/herbs,

>etc.

> > Foods, colors and most other things in the so called physical world are

> > made

> > or exhibit vibratory rates. Some more slowly than others.

> >

> > In physics, they call this the wave vs particle side of duality.

>

>Like I said you can all it what you want, everyone has different views.

>Look

>at D.E. Kendall - He would surely disagree with you. My point is that the

>Chinese sources I have read and my Chinese teachers do not support your

>assumptions. If you have some sources I would like to see it. The way you

>present things just seems more newagey than what I have learned from the

>Chinese sources. But I am not saying it is not true, that is yet to be

>decided.

>

>-

>

> >

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> > > " "

> > >

> > >RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > >Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:29:46 -0600

> > >

> > > >

> > > > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > > > Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:09 PM

> > > >

> > > > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > >

> > > > Alon,

> > > >

> > > > Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported,

>as

> > >did

> > > > the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the

>channels.

> > > > Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants

> > were

> > > > tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and

> > its

> > > > change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for

> > the

> > > > person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

> > >

> > >That is nice, but far from evidence that supports 'vibration rates is

>at

> > >the

> > >core of what OM'

> > >

> > >-

> > >

> > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > > >

> > > > > " " <alonmarcus

> > > > >

> > > > >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > > >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> > > > >

> > > > >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > > > > >>>>>

> > > > >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

> > > > specific

> > > > >meanings.

> > > > >

> > > > >Oakland, CA 94609

> > > > >

September 28, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:34 AM

>

> RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> I apologize for making such an assumption as I thought we were all more or

> less on the same page with physics and other concepts. I think we can

> hopefully agree that all matter has frequency or vibrations as this is a

> fundamental principle in our world.

>

> As I understand it, the theory that we are a reflection of the greater

> universe (macrocosm-microcosm) means just this. Some, like Deke, and

> others

> want to limit theory and treatment only to what occurs in the microcosm

> yet

> I can say that when weather turns bad or is about to, it sure helps keep

> healthy if you make some changes to remain well. If your sources are more

> recent (post 1949), then I would expect a complete sanitization of certain

> ideas.

No I don't buy this one either... the communist did not weed everything out

to do with vibrations and ethereal aurus and what not. You will need a lot

of convincing to prove that one. We have been through this before, and I

think there are a very few examples of what Mao weeded out. Most is the

same as it was the year before, or for that matter 100 years before. (and so

on)

And as far as my sources go, I read a great deal of wenbing material which

of course is way before 1949, and I am also currently going through the

neijing (of course 2000 years old). The question is not what you and I

think the nature of the universe is, electrons, photons, energy fields,

quarks, dark matter or whatever else, it is what the Chinese past and

present say... That at least is what concerns me because that is where our

medicine comes from. IS that so far fetched? If you want to integrate all

of the latest and greatest quantum physics into your medicine then more

power to you, but to say that such concepts are the core of CM is just IMO

wrong, unless you are just talking in some purely philosophical metaphysical

sense... For example, (hold on while I take a puff...) ok... oh yeah,

everything is Qi man, I mean everything, Qi ... energy, we are all energy...

No man I mean everything... wait man, all medicine is just energy, man... We

are all just like beams of light floating around at different vibrations...

As far as yin-yang - I see nothing metaphysical or that strange about these

concepts. Concepts of the universe are a little broad, so you will have to

be more specific. As for leaving Kendall out of this, I am totally fine,

because I think his stance is a bit one-sided, but the point is people

believe different things, and just because you (or I) see things one way

doesn't make it so (except in our own mind). But understanding qi is a

difficult subject. I am currently working with what the Chinese thought

about shen - just as difficult. I think the neijing alone mentions it about

240 times.

-

I would be interested in hearing how your mentors dealt with

> concepts of the universe, yin-yang, etc. As for Deke, I think we should

> leave him and his nerve/blood vessel view for another post.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " "

> >

> >RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:06:15 -0600

> >

> > >

> > > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:09 AM

> > >

> > > RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > >

> > > Are you not taking a pulse or manipulating needles?

> > >

> > > Both of these are connected with vibration and important to acu/herbs,

> >etc.

> > > Foods, colors and most other things in the so called physical world

> are

> > > made

> > > or exhibit vibratory rates. Some more slowly than others.

> > >

> > > In physics, they call this the wave vs particle side of duality.

> >

> >Like I said you can all it what you want, everyone has different views.

> >Look

> >at D.E. Kendall - He would surely disagree with you. My point is that

> the

> >Chinese sources I have read and my Chinese teachers do not support your

> >assumptions. If you have some sources I would like to see it. The way

> you

> >present things just seems more newagey than what I have learned from the

> >Chinese sources. But I am not saying it is not true, that is yet to be

> >decided.

> >

> >-

> >

> > >

> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > >

> > > > " "

> > > >

> > > >RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > >Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:29:46 -0600

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On Behalf Of mike

> Bowser

> > > > > Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:09 PM

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > > >

> > > > > Alon,

> > > > >

> > > > > Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported,

> >as

> > > >did

> > > > > the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the

> >channels.

> > > > > Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants

> > > were

> > > > > tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee

> and

> > > its

> > > > > change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours

> for

> > > the

> > > > > person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

> > > >

> > > >That is nice, but far from evidence that supports 'vibration rates is

> >at

> > > >the

> > > >core of what OM'

> > > >

> > > >-

> > > >

> > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > > > >

> > > > > > " " <alonmarcus

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > > > >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> > > > > >

> > > > > >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

> > > > > specific

> > > > > >meanings.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609

> > > > > >

September 28, 2005

wrong, unless you are just talking in some purely philosophical metaphysical

sense... For example, (hold on while I take a puff...) ok... oh yeah,

everything is Qi man, I mean everything, Qi ... energy, we are all energy...

No man I mean everything... wait man, all medicine is just energy, man... We

are all just like beams of light floating around at different vibrations...

>>>>>

Jason

Thanks for the laugh of the day. By the way i enjoyed your article.

Oakland, CA 94609

September 28, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of

> Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:40 PM

>

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> wrong, unless you are just talking in some purely philosophical

> metaphysical

> sense... For example, (hold on while I take a puff...) ok... oh yeah,

> everything is Qi man, I mean everything, Qi ... energy, we are all

> energy...

> No man I mean everything... wait man, all medicine is just energy, man...

> We

> are all just like beams of light floating around at different

vibrations...

>

> >>>>>

> Jason

> Thanks for the laugh of the day. By the way i enjoyed your article.

Thank Alon... I actually just read my article and I noticed they left out

the conclusion. Therefore, I most likely will post the whole article on my

website in the near future. Glad you enjoyed it.

-

September 28, 2005

I actually just read my article and I noticed they left out

the conclusion. Therefore, I most likely will post the whole article on my

website in the near future. Glad you enjoyed it.

>>>>>>

Please post on list as well

thanks

Oakland, CA 94609

September 28, 2005

I have some concerns over this idea and so should we all be. If we take

this stand, then we are contributing to the same lack of educational

training that is seen by 100 hr acu certifications. I do not think we want

to be hypocrits nor do we believe that a practitioner with 100 hr can

perform acupuncture with any skill or result.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>acuman1

>

>Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:49:16 EDT

>

>Now, all we hava to do is make it so acupuncturists in California can

>provide

>homeopathics!

>DAvid Molony

>

>In a message dated 9/26/05 10:10:08 AM, zoilander writes:

>

> > Hi Joseph, I've been using homotoxicology and drainage formulas for

>about 6

> > months now with very good clinical results. I combine them with chinese

> > herbal formulas. I took that class with Miki Shima and a couple others.

> > Really good stuff.

> >

> > Ferran

> >

> > >Joseph Garner <jhgarner_1

> > >

> > > The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > >Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:55:52 -0700 (PDT)

> > >

> > >All,

> > >As a follow-up to my previous post in reply to ' post on IV

> > >vitamin C, I'd like to comment on the Shang Han Lun and homotoxicology.

> > >

> > >Dr. Reckeweg, founder of the Heel homeopathic company of Germany, was a

> > >brilliant medical person who created the science of homotoxicology,

>which

> > >means the study of that which is toxic to mankind (homo sapiens). What

>he

> > >discovered was that the disease process works through six stages, which

>is

> > >the six stages the immune system goes through in its efforts to ward

>off

> > >illness. These stages rather roughly but essentially correspond to the

>six

> > >stages found in the Shang Han Lun.

> > >

> > >The first stage is called the excretion stage, corresponding to Taiyang

> > >stage. At this stage the body tries to excrete germs, toxins, illness

>in

> > >general by sweating, coughing, vomiting, urinating, defecating and

>such. If

> > >this doesn't suffice, then the next stage is inflammation, I presume

> > >corresponding to Yangming. If this is not successful at ending the

>illness,

> > >then the immune system deposits toxins in some non-life-threatening

>places

> > >in the body until it can get around to getting rid of them, which is to

>say

> > >in the connective tissue (in-between tissues), corresponding, I would

>say,

> > >to Shaoyang. This is called the deposition stage. These three stages

>are

> > >considered to be the side of the homotoxicology chart reflecting an

>immune

> > >system that is fighting to win, to get rid of illness, a pro-active

>immune

> > >system--the yang stages.

> > >

> > >If these stages are not victorious, then the illness proceeds to become

> > >chronic--the yin stages. This is the side of the homotoxicology chart

> > >reflecting a bodymind whose immune system is no longer fighting to win

>but

> > >to lose as slowly as possible, to compensate for what it cannot get rid

>of.

> > >The fourth stage is called the impregnation stage, because the body,

>having

> > >given up on ridding itself of the deposited toxins, now proceeds to

>seal up

> > >or entomb the toxins to prevent systemic poisoning. At this stage the

> > >spleen qi is exhausted. This is the stage of chronic fatigue,

>fibromyalgia,

> > >rheumatoid arthritis and such. Eventually the toxins rot through the

>seals,

> > >and the surrounding tissues--and the system itself--begin to

>degenerate, so

> > >this is the degenerative or shaoyin stage. Many die at this stage. In

>the

> > >final or jueyin stage, the regeneration process in the cells goes

>haywire,

> > >and young cells in the most toxic tissues stop differentiating into

>their

> > >various types and become

> > > cancerous, so it is called the dedifferentiation stage.

> > >

> > >To me, the word homotoxicology is an egregious-sounding one, but it is

>the

> > >name of one of the most profound insights in medical history, and it

>has

> > >remarkable links to one of the other most profound insights in medical

> > >history--the Shang Han Lun. I believe the future of Chinese herbal

>medicine

> > >will become inexorably entwined with that of homotoxicology. Miki Shima

> > >teaches courses through Heel on Shang Han Lun/homotoxicology, which he

>has

> > >been studying and practicing for 25 years. I've only dipped my toes in

>that

> > >pool so far, but I found the water just fine. Perhaps we will become

>able

> > >to employ homeopathic Chinese herbal formulas one of these days. I'd

>love

> > >to give that a try. Any thoughts?

> > >Joseph Garner, LAc

> > >

> > >Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around

> > >

September 28, 2005

Jason,

Well, in any case, we agree on generalities. I do not find it worthwhile to get

knotted up in fruitless wrangling over semantics. There is a time for strict

precision in language, and there is a time to be flexible about it. I was just

trying to make a point that there is a philosophic similarity between homeopathy

and CM in the understanding of how our reality functions. I am not trying to

force any points on anybody that do not seem to be in general agreement already.

Please let us not go on with this any more. This forum has gnawed this bone

enough before. Everybody was correct. Let's move on. Please?

Joseph

wrote:

>

> On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:26 PM

>

> RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Jason,

> All I mean is that CM seems to be seeing bodies as essentially energy

> vortices, as qi (and I know qi and energy are not necessarily the same,

> but I am speaking broadly here). Matter = energy and light. WM focuses on

> the matter. CM focuses on the energy/light. Nothing mysterious.

> Joseph

>

Joseph,

I do not question your perception that we are essentially energy, but can we

really say that CM sees the body as energy vortices?? Like I said

previously, I don't find this when I read Chinese nor have any of my Chinese

teachers spoke in this manner. But, there is obviously some middle ground

to what the Chinese originally believed (i.e. circua Neijing and beyond) in

regard to a material or energetic approach. I just have a hard time

accepting that CM, at least for some time (or maybe forever), embraces many

of these energetic newage concepts/

-

> wrote:

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of Joseph Garner

> > Monday, September 26, 2005 9:08 PM

> >

> > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >

> > Alon,

> > Of course they're different, but not because of allopathy. Chinese

> > medicine is based on an allopathic model--heat treats cold, cold treats

> > heat, etc. Reckeweg's training in physiology was no doubt based on the

> > Western science model of matter orientation to the body. Chinese

> medicine

> > uses an energetic orientation.

>

> What does that mean? Energetic oreitntation???

>

> -

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

September 28, 2005

I was just trying to make a point that there is a philosophic similarity between

homeopathy and CM in the understanding of how our reality functions. .

>>>>

I think its true for all forms of medicine. if you want look for differences you

will see these and in wanting to see similarities this is what you will see

Oakland, CA 94609

September 28, 2005

, " "

<@c...> wrote:

> Thank Alon... I actually just read my article and I noticed they

left out

> the conclusion. Therefore, I most likely will post the whole

article on my

> website in the near future. Glad you enjoyed it.

That would be great, it sounds interesting.

Eric

September 29, 2005

Heiko,

I will look for this info and get back to you. NAJOM stands for North

American Journal of Oriental Medicine and is out of Canada.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Heiko Lade " <heikolade.acnm

>

>Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:29:15 +1200

>

>Mike

> " Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as did

>the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels. "

>

>Can you point to specifically where this info comes from from, what is

>NAJOM

>Heiko Lade

>M.H.Sc.(TCM)

>Lecturer and clinic supervisor

>Auckland College of Natural Medicine

>Website: www.acnm.co.nz

>

> -

> mike Bowser

>

> Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:08 AM

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Alon,

>

> Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as

>did

> the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels.

> Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants were

> tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and its

> change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for the

> person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " " <alonmarcus

> >

> >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> >

> >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > >>>>>

> >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

>specific

> >meanings.

> >

> >Oakland, CA 94609

> >

September 29, 2005

NAJOM stands for North

American Journal of Oriental Medicine and is out of Canada.

Can anyone tell me if this a good journal and if there are any other good ones

for our library at college to get,

WE get Lantern, JCM

Heiko Lade

M.H.Sc.(TCM)

Lecturer and clinic supervisor

Auckland College of Natural Medicine

Website: www.acnm.co.nz

-

mike Bowser

Friday, September 30, 2005 1:05 AM

Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

Heiko,

I will look for this info and get back to you. NAJOM stands for North

American Journal of Oriental Medicine and is out of Canada.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Heiko Lade " <heikolade.acnm

>

>Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:29:15 +1200

>

>Mike

> " Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as did

>the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels. "

>

>Can you point to specifically where this info comes from from, what is

>NAJOM

>Heiko Lade

>M.H.Sc.(TCM)

>Lecturer and clinic supervisor

>Auckland College of Natural Medicine

>Website: www.acnm.co.nz

>

> -

> mike Bowser

>

> Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:08 AM

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Alon,

>

> Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka reported, as

>did

> the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the channels.

> Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which participants were

> tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee and its

> change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours for the

> person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " " <alonmarcus

> >

> >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> >

> >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > >>>>>

> >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

>specific

> >meanings.

> >

> >Oakland, CA 94609

> >

September 29, 2005

It is a journal focused on Japanese acupuncture. Very good if that

is the sort of thing you are interested in. Not much of herbal

medicine, all of it kanpo.

Z'ev Rosenberg

On Sep 29, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Heiko Lade wrote:

> NAJOM stands for North

> American Journal of Oriental Medicine and is out of Canada.

>

> Can anyone tell me if this a good journal and if there are any

> other good ones for our library at college to get,

> WE get Lantern, JCM

> Heiko Lade

> M.H.Sc.(TCM)

> Lecturer and clinic supervisor

> Auckland College of Natural Medicine

> Website: www.acnm.co.nz

>

> -

> mike Bowser

>

> Friday, September 30, 2005 1:05 AM

> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Heiko,

> I will look for this info and get back to you. NAJOM stands for

> North

> American Journal of Oriental Medicine and is out of Canada.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>> " Heiko Lade " <heikolade.acnm

>>

>> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>> Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:29:15 +1200

>>

>> Mike

>> " Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka

>> reported, as did

>> the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the

>> channels. "

>>

>> Can you point to specifically where this info comes from from,

>> what is

>> NAJOM

>> Heiko Lade

>> M.H.Sc.(TCM)

>> Lecturer and clinic supervisor

>> Auckland College of Natural Medicine

>> Website: www.acnm.co.nz

>>

>> -

>> mike Bowser

>>

>> Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:08 AM

>> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>>

>> Alon,

>>

>> Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka

>> reported, as

>> did

>> the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the

>> channels.

>> Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which

>> participants were

>> tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee

>> and its

>> change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours

>> for the

>> person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

>>

>> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>>

>>> " " <alonmarcus

>>>

>>> Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>>> Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

>>>

>>> vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>> Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead of

>>>

>> specific

>>

>>> meanings.

>>>

>>> Oakland, CA 94609

>>>

September 29, 2005

Jason,

I am a little concerned and confused as to why the reluctance to see both

the connection and importance of vibrations in ancient theory. This is not

a sign of drug induced psychosis.

They might not have stated the word exactly as we would have liked but they

knew of it when it was lacking, stagnant or even how to use it in treatment.

While the idea of a certain term might not be accurate, the hidden side of

this is that they knew about it. Many things of the past were hidden for a

reason and much knowledge came thru lineages related to families. Martial

arts and medicine were closely guarded secrets.

I am not hoping for a conversion to physics language but the parallels can

be uncanny at times and we should not dismiss this knowledge just because

you need another hit. As OM is a reflection of the universe then it would

be logical to have some commonalities in observations and descriptions of

events. I would hope that you can see that.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " "

>

>RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:32:37 -0600

>

> >

> > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:34 AM

> >

> > RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> >

> > I apologize for making such an assumption as I thought we were all more

>or

> > less on the same page with physics and other concepts. I think we can

> > hopefully agree that all matter has frequency or vibrations as this is a

> > fundamental principle in our world.

> >

> > As I understand it, the theory that we are a reflection of the greater

> > universe (macrocosm-microcosm) means just this. Some, like Deke, and

> > others

> > want to limit theory and treatment only to what occurs in the microcosm

> > yet

> > I can say that when weather turns bad or is about to, it sure helps keep

> > healthy if you make some changes to remain well. If your sources are

>more

> > recent (post 1949), then I would expect a complete sanitization of

>certain

> > ideas.

>

>No I don't buy this one either... the communist did not weed everything out

>to do with vibrations and ethereal aurus and what not. You will need a lot

>of convincing to prove that one. We have been through this before, and I

>think there are a very few examples of what Mao weeded out. Most is the

>same as it was the year before, or for that matter 100 years before. (and

>so

>on)

>

>And as far as my sources go, I read a great deal of wenbing material which

>of course is way before 1949, and I am also currently going through the

>neijing (of course 2000 years old). The question is not what you and I

>think the nature of the universe is, electrons, photons, energy fields,

>quarks, dark matter or whatever else, it is what the Chinese past and

>present say... That at least is what concerns me because that is where our

>medicine comes from. IS that so far fetched? If you want to integrate all

>of the latest and greatest quantum physics into your medicine then more

>power to you, but to say that such concepts are the core of CM is just IMO

>wrong, unless you are just talking in some purely philosophical

>metaphysical

>sense... For example, (hold on while I take a puff...) ok... oh yeah,

>everything is Qi man, I mean everything, Qi ... energy, we are all

>energy...

>No man I mean everything... wait man, all medicine is just energy, man...

>We

>are all just like beams of light floating around at different vibrations...

>

>As far as yin-yang - I see nothing metaphysical or that strange about these

>concepts. Concepts of the universe are a little broad, so you will have to

>be more specific. As for leaving Kendall out of this, I am totally fine,

>because I think his stance is a bit one-sided, but the point is people

>believe different things, and just because you (or I) see things one way

>doesn't make it so (except in our own mind). But understanding qi is a

>difficult subject. I am currently working with what the Chinese thought

>about shen - just as difficult. I think the neijing alone mentions it about

>240 times.

>

>-

>

> I would be interested in hearing how your mentors dealt with

> > concepts of the universe, yin-yang, etc. As for Deke, I think we should

> > leave him and his nerve/blood vessel view for another post.

> >

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> > > " "

> > >

> > >RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > >Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:06:15 -0600

> > >

> > > >

> > > > On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> > > > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:09 AM

> > > >

> > > > RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > >

> > > > Are you not taking a pulse or manipulating needles?

> > > >

> > > > Both of these are connected with vibration and important to

>acu/herbs,

> > >etc.

> > > > Foods, colors and most other things in the so called physical world

> > are

> > > > made

> > > > or exhibit vibratory rates. Some more slowly than others.

> > > >

> > > > In physics, they call this the wave vs particle side of duality.

> > >

> > >Like I said you can all it what you want, everyone has different views.

> > >Look

> > >at D.E. Kendall - He would surely disagree with you. My point is that

> > the

> > >Chinese sources I have read and my Chinese teachers do not support your

> > >assumptions. If you have some sources I would like to see it. The way

> > you

> > >present things just seems more newagey than what I have learned from

>the

> > >Chinese sources. But I am not saying it is not true, that is yet to be

> > >decided.

> > >

> > >-

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > > >

> > > > > " "

> > > > >

> > > > >RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > > >Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:29:46 -0600

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Behalf Of mike

> > Bowser

> > > > > > Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:09 PM

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Alon,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Frequency is one modern term that comes to mind. Manaka

>reported,

> > >as

> > > > >did

> > > > > > the NAJOM, correlation of measured frequencies to each of the

> > >channels.

> > > > > > Additionally, I remember citation of a study in which

>participants

> > > > were

> > > > > > tested (not sure of device) before and after handling of coffee

> > and

> > > > its

> > > > > > change in a person's frequency. I think it took about 24 hours

> > for

> > > > the

> > > > > > person to get back up to normal after the coffee.

> > > > >

> > > > >That is nice, but far from evidence that supports 'vibration rates

>is

> > >at

> > > > >the

> > > > >core of what OM'

> > > > >

> > > > >-

> > > > >

> > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Re: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

> > > > > > >Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:42:31 -0700

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >vibration rates is at the core of what OM is all about.

> > > > > > > >>>>>

> > > > > > >Very serious. Its way too easy to use these euphemisms instead

>of

> > > > > > specific

> > > > > > >meanings.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609

> > > > > > >

September 29, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of mike Bowser

> Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:30 PM

>

> RE: Re: The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

>

> Jason,

>

> I am a little concerned and confused as to why the reluctance to see both

> the connection and importance of vibrations in ancient theory. This is

> not

> a sign of drug induced psychosis.

>

> They might not have stated the word exactly as we would have liked but

> they

> knew of it when it was lacking, stagnant or even how to use it in

> treatment.

> While the idea of a certain term might not be accurate, the hidden side

> of

> this is that they knew about it. Many things of the past were hidden for

> a

> reason and much knowledge came thru lineages related to families.

I always find it convenient that when some idea that is not documented

anywhere is claimed to come from an oral tradition, or whatever. I don't

discount oral traditions, but am skeptical of concepts or usages that not

only sound odd, but are just not found anywhere else. But that is just me.

I personally stick to the mounds and mounds and volumes and volumes of

recorded information. But before I invest in some idea like the yang-wei

corresponds to the aura or the foundation of CM are energy vortices or

whatever, you are going to have to do a lot of convincing. You say ancient

theory relies on vibrations (or whatever) - What are you talking about?

What does that mean? How do you define vibrations. Hey if you just mean

everything in the universe is some vibration therefore everything is

vibration, fine, but this IMO it is so vague and newagey I don't even know

what to do with it. You may want to start putting homeopathics at those

specific vibrations on acu points or something, and that is all fine, but

let us be clear this is not CM. But if you are saying that Chinese used the

concept of vibration is some real theapetic way, then this is useful, but

should be explained. If you say is rooted in energy

vortices, then fine. But Vibration Orr energy vortice must be defined and

then showed how the Chinese actually used this concept.

So if you feel like putting the effort in, I would like to see a solid

argument on the connection and importance of vibrations in ancient theory.

This, to be worthwhile, would have to have some source. That source would

have to be some words, so we can discuss such an issue. Granted it is not

clear exactly what is being said in classical texts, there is in general

much debate. But the point is, there is debate, and people formulate well

laid out arguments based on the texts. At least to convince me of such

ideas you will have to do more than vague mentions, or claim oral tradition.

But that is just me. So if they knew of these concepts please educate me.

-

September 29, 2005

But if you are saying that Chinese used the

concept of vibration is some real theapetic way, then this is useful, but

should be explained. If you say is rooted in energy

vortices, then fine. But Vibration Orr energy vortice must be defined and

then showed how the Chinese actually used this concept.

>>>>

Jason

the only thing i can think of is sound used in qi gong therapies

Oakland, CA 94609

The Shang Han Lun and Homotoxicology

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