Guest guest Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 All, As has been pointed out too many times of late, we are gradually having our toys taken away by the mean guys down the block. That is, the US government is quietly and very gradually shutting down the flow of herbs from China to the US. And although I agree with Bob Flaws' stated position on sticking to the tried and true and the well-known herbal combinations from the past, I think it behooves us to start seriously exploring how we can turn " Western " herbs into " Chinese " herbs. I know there are those that have been doing just that for some time, but by rights we should have centuries to come to consensus on the energetics. We don't appear to have that luxury. I first read Peter Holmes' Energetics of Western Herbs in the early 1990s. Everybody I spoke to in the field panned it. I was never quite sure why, but I found my own reasons to lay Holmes' books down for years. A couple years ago I picked them up again, and I was truly impressed. Yes, there are some errors of detail here and there, and yes, one may or may not agree on the energetics assigned to every plant, but who else has taken on the task of figuring out the energetics of Western herbs with such amazing scholarliness? And he continues to do so. I think people panned his books because they just weren't ready to spread their minds out that far. We all needed to get better at traditional CM herbology. Still do, for that matter. But I for one have been ready to open my mind to this, and I think we are going to be forced to do so as a field, or lose our ability to practice. This is why I posted a quote from his Volume I the other day, about how alcohol extract effects differ from decoction effects, and I have not heard back on it. Perhaps no one on the list knows the answer. I certainly don't. But I think we need to start working out the great core formulas of CM in terms of other medicinals that will stay available to us no matter what the US government does, unless they come and take us all to prison one night, and I don't think that will ever happen. Our government impinges freedoms more subtly than others do. Some will say that we should just grow all the Chinese core pharmacopeia here, and that is slowly happening, but not enough to keep up with demand, and besides, they will be somewhat different herbs anyway grown here in these soils and these climate zones. We'll need to figure them out all over again anyway, at least to some extent. Joseph Garner for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 On Oct 1, 2005, at 4:39 PM, Joseph Garner wrote: > All, > As has been pointed out too many times of late, we are gradually > having our toys taken away by the mean guys down the block. That > is, the US government is quietly and very gradually shutting down > the flow of herbs from China to the US. And although I agree with > Bob Flaws' stated position on sticking to the tried and true and > the well-known herbal combinations from the past, I think it > behooves us to start seriously exploring how we can turn " Western " > herbs into " Chinese " herbs. I know there are those that have been > doing just that for some time, but by rights we should have > centuries to come to consensus on the energetics. We don't appear > to have that luxury. I agree that this should be a primary concern for our profession in the coming years. But we must also realize that this project will require quality minds, scholarship, testing, funding and a concerted effort. It can't just be a fringe dalliance with pop pretensions. > > I first read Peter Holmes' Energetics of Western Herbs in the early > 1990s. Everybody I spoke to in the field panned it. I was never > quite sure why, but I found my own reasons to lay Holmes' books > down for years. A couple years ago I picked them up again, and I > was truly impressed. Yes, there are some errors of detail here and > there, and yes, one may or may not agree on the energetics assigned > to every plant, but who else has taken on the task of figuring out > the energetics of Western herbs with such amazing scholarliness? > And he continues to do so. I think people panned his books because > they just weren't ready to spread their minds out that far. We all > needed to get better at traditional CM herbology. Still do, for > that matter. But I for one have been ready to open my mind to this, > and I think we are going to be forced to do so as a field, or lose > our ability to practice. I think as an early effort in this direction, there were many errors and a lot of speculation. Peter's western herbal research credentials and efforts were extraordinary, but it is just too difficult to assign Chinese medical 'energetics' to Western herbs in this way. My major concern at the time this book was released is that his descriptions would be taken as a clinical fact rather than an author's speculations. > > This is why I posted a quote from his Volume I the other day, about > how alcohol extract effects differ from decoction effects, and I > have not heard back on it. Perhaps no one on the list knows the > answer. I certainly don't. But I think we need to start working out > the great core formulas of CM in terms of other medicinals that > will stay available to us no matter what the US government does, > unless they come and take us all to prison one night, and I don't > think that will ever happen. Our government impinges freedoms more > subtly than others do. Some will say that we should just grow all > the Chinese core pharmacopeia here, and that is slowly happening, > but not enough to keep up with demand, and besides, they will be > somewhat different herbs anyway grown here in these soils and these > climate zones. We'll need to figure them out all over again anyway, > at least to some extent. > Joseph Garner I remember this discussion on alcohol extracts in his other text, " Jade Remedies " , and it was thought provoking. But, again, it needs to be put to the test, discussed, and then we can see what the possibilities are. No matter how astute an author may be, one person cannot determine the effects of medicines on large numbers of people without the input of other practitioners and trying these methods out on large groups of patients. > > > > for Good > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Z'ev, I understand what you say and essentially agree. I have to give Holmes credit for giving it one hell of a try, though. I taught an advanced course a couple of years ago at PIHMA in Phoenix to a couple of graduating seniors on integrative herbology. I used Holmes's Energetics, Tierra's book on world herbology, and various other sources. Among many other things, we came up with famous Chinese herb formulas in principle using non-Chinese herbs. There was of course no set right or wrong answers, but it was a real exercise in thinking in Chinese medicine principles. Of course one would have to try the formulas out on real people before saying they were anything equivalent. But why I brought this up is to note that besides stretching our minds, there was something peculiarly heart-opening about the exercises. It was as if the herbs themselves were talking to our hearts, leading us to the answers we came up with. Now I know this is not " scientific " and is a controversial subject. I merely report what we all three independently experienced. Joseph <zrosenbe wrote: On Oct 1, 2005, at 4:39 PM, Joseph Garner wrote: > All, > As has been pointed out too many times of late, we are gradually > having our toys taken away by the mean guys down the block. That > is, the US government is quietly and very gradually shutting down > the flow of herbs from China to the US. And although I agree with > Bob Flaws' stated position on sticking to the tried and true and > the well-known herbal combinations from the past, I think it > behooves us to start seriously exploring how we can turn " Western " > herbs into " Chinese " herbs. I know there are those that have been > doing just that for some time, but by rights we should have > centuries to come to consensus on the energetics. We don't appear > to have that luxury. I agree that this should be a primary concern for our profession in the coming years. But we must also realize that this project will require quality minds, scholarship, testing, funding and a concerted effort. It can't just be a fringe dalliance with pop pretensions. > > I first read Peter Holmes' Energetics of Western Herbs in the early > 1990s. Everybody I spoke to in the field panned it. I was never > quite sure why, but I found my own reasons to lay Holmes' books > down for years. A couple years ago I picked them up again, and I > was truly impressed. Yes, there are some errors of detail here and > there, and yes, one may or may not agree on the energetics assigned > to every plant, but who else has taken on the task of figuring out > the energetics of Western herbs with such amazing scholarliness? > And he continues to do so. I think people panned his books because > they just weren't ready to spread their minds out that far. We all > needed to get better at traditional CM herbology. Still do, for > that matter. But I for one have been ready to open my mind to this, > and I think we are going to be forced to do so as a field, or lose > our ability to practice. I think as an early effort in this direction, there were many errors and a lot of speculation. Peter's western herbal research credentials and efforts were extraordinary, but it is just too difficult to assign Chinese medical 'energetics' to Western herbs in this way. My major concern at the time this book was released is that his descriptions would be taken as a clinical fact rather than an author's speculations. > > This is why I posted a quote from his Volume I the other day, about > how alcohol extract effects differ from decoction effects, and I > have not heard back on it. Perhaps no one on the list knows the > answer. I certainly don't. But I think we need to start working out > the great core formulas of CM in terms of other medicinals that > will stay available to us no matter what the US government does, > unless they come and take us all to prison one night, and I don't > think that will ever happen. Our government impinges freedoms more > subtly than others do. Some will say that we should just grow all > the Chinese core pharmacopeia here, and that is slowly happening, > but not enough to keep up with demand, and besides, they will be > somewhat different herbs anyway grown here in these soils and these > climate zones. We'll need to figure them out all over again anyway, > at least to some extent. > Joseph Garner I remember this discussion on alcohol extracts in his other text, " Jade Remedies " , and it was thought provoking. But, again, it needs to be put to the test, discussed, and then we can see what the possibilities are. No matter how astute an author may be, one person cannot determine the effects of medicines on large numbers of people without the input of other practitioners and trying these methods out on large groups of patients. > > > > for Good > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Joseph, The exercises sound like a lot of fun, and I am sure they are beneficial. But the fact remains we need: 1) more reliable texts than the ones you've mentioned 2) practitioners willing to research western herbs and investigate their qualities from a CM perspective 3) find equivalent plants in the Chinese materia medica. It makes the job of classifying western herbs that much easier As you know, I led my second workshop on finding native medicinals in Taos, N.M. this last summer, and will do it again next summer as well. We picked local herbs, and found over thirty equivalents in the Zhong yao da ci dian/Great Dictionary of Chinese Medicinals. From there, we can begin to try to design formulas. It is a long, slow process, but I think our job is just to begin. Take care, On Oct 2, 2005, at 9:38 PM, Joseph Garner wrote: > Z'ev, > I understand what you say and essentially agree. I have to give > Holmes credit for giving it one hell of a try, though. I taught an > advanced course a couple of years ago at PIHMA in Phoenix to a > couple of graduating seniors on integrative herbology. I used > Holmes's Energetics, Tierra's book on world herbology, and various > other sources. Among many other things, we came up with famous > Chinese herb formulas in principle using non-Chinese herbs. There > was of course no set right or wrong answers, but it was a real > exercise in thinking in Chinese medicine principles. Of course one > would have to try the formulas out on real people before saying > they were anything equivalent. But why I brought this up is to note > that besides stretching our minds, there was something peculiarly > heart-opening about the exercises. It was as if the herbs > themselves were talking to our hearts, leading us to the answers we > came up with. Now I know this is not " scientific " and is a > controversial subject. I merely > report what we all three independently experienced. > Joseph > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2005 Report Share Posted October 3, 2005 Z'ev, you might be interested in the article I wrote on this subject - protocols for assigning TCM descriptions of western herbs: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2000-3.html TCM paradigm and western herbs: Oregon Grape root as example Oregon grape (Mahonia repens) grows in my region, in fact all over the west, I've used it occassionally and have some feel for its properties. It took me about a month to do the background research for the article, just on this one herb. Hopefully, that will give you some idea of the magnitude of the task. I wrote this paper originally to serve as a template for students to follow in writing papers about western herbs, as so many students wanted to incorporate western herbs into their TCM style of practice. But I saw a lot of misconceptions and tendencies to get side-tracked by information that is almost exclusively presented from a biomedical perspective. The article gives some ideas as to how to use this information and read between the lines. Roger > " " <zrosenbe >Re: The Future of Chinese Herbology > >Joseph, > The exercises sound like a lot of fun, and I am sure they are >beneficial. But the fact remains we need: >1) more reliable texts than the ones you've mentioned >2) practitioners willing to research western herbs and investigate >their qualities from a CM perspective >3) find equivalent plants in the Chinese materia medica. It makes >the job of classifying western herbs that much easier > > As you know, I led my second workshop on finding native >medicinals in Taos, N.M. this last summer, and will do it again next >summer as well. We picked local herbs, and found over thirty >equivalents in the Zhong yao da ci dian/Great Dictionary of Chinese >Medicinals. From there, we can begin to try to design formulas. It >is a long, slow process, but I think our job is just to begin. > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 In a message dated 10/1/05 7:39:38 PM, jhgarner_1 writes: > As has been pointed out too many times of late, we are gradually having our > toys taken away by the mean guys down the block. That is, the US government > is quietly and very gradually shutting down the flow of herbs from China to > the US > As an aside, the national herbal organizations have come together (for example, Claudette Baker and I have been the reps from AAOM) and are developing information and legislation so we can continue to have access to our herbs. We are at the stage when we are going back to our boards for comment, after which we will go to the public and our respective professions for the same, after which we will start working legislatively. This process has taken a much shorter tiime than I had originally skeptically thought it would take and we hopefully will have something solid in the next 6 months after 2 years work, which is incredibly fast, considering. I am more hopeful than I have ever been that this will be the ticket and will provide the CHA all the information as it comes available, regarding the confidentiality process we follow. In my neotiations withthe FDA as a representative of AAOM, I have been on the receiving end of implications (they can't be straightforward with such things) of a view that they might like to see us have a process for professional herbalists to have access to certain herbs that may not be available to the public, because of our safety record. I may be wrong, however, but it seems to me that it woud be a win/win for everyone to set this up, and the above legislation may be a vehicle for it. Get ready to open your pocketbooks and your writing pads for getting this legislation through. It will probably be easier than I had figured but still a difficult and expensive proposition, and we may see our opposition be a surprise guest. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 David, I very much appreciate and applaud the efforts of you and those you are associated with. I used to work for the FDA, and I know that though the people who work in the field offices are human beings, the people at headquarters are some other species. Good luck, and be careful. Politics hits without warning. Thank you again. Joseph Garner, LAc acuman1 wrote: In a message dated 10/1/05 7:39:38 PM, jhgarner_1 writes: > As has been pointed out too many times of late, we are gradually having our > toys taken away by the mean guys down the block. That is, the US government > is quietly and very gradually shutting down the flow of herbs from China to > the US > As an aside, the national herbal organizations have come together (for example, Claudette Baker and I have been the reps from AAOM) and are developing information and legislation so we can continue to have access to our herbs. We are at the stage when we are going back to our boards for comment, after which we will go to the public and our respective professions for the same, after which we will start working legislatively. This process has taken a much shorter tiime than I had originally skeptically thought it would take and we hopefully will have something solid in the next 6 months after 2 years work, which is incredibly fast, considering. I am more hopeful than I have ever been that this will be the ticket and will provide the CHA all the information as it comes available, regarding the confidentiality process we follow. In my neotiations withthe FDA as a representative of AAOM, I have been on the receiving end of implications (they can't be straightforward with such things) of a view that they might like to see us have a process for professional herbalists to have access to certain herbs that may not be available to the public, because of our safety record. I may be wrong, however, but it seems to me that it woud be a win/win for everyone to set this up, and the above legislation may be a vehicle for it. Get ready to open your pocketbooks and your writing pads for getting this legislation through. It will probably be easier than I had figured but still a difficult and expensive proposition, and we may see our opposition be a surprise guest. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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